Great Pyramid Chamber Positions

[Bennu]

The offset position of the King's Chamber (KC) from the Queen's Chamber (QC) presents us with something of a puzzle, never plausibly explained by Egyptologists to my knowledge. Some may suggest that it's simply the diagonal of a 1:2 rectangle. It's true that the positioning does conform to that angle, but then why offset the chambers at all and why that much if all they were trying to do was not have them directly above each other? You could accept that suggestion though, if you were satisfied with that explanation. Personally, I think there may be more to it than that. I think the ancient Egyptians were so concerned with the stars that they used them as the basis for that part of the pyramid design. Agree or disagree, as you see fit. I'm merely presenting something which I found and which seems like a possible alternative explanation to me. I did post another idea several years ago about how the chamber positions also seem to match up with the stars Atlas and Alcyone just before the Pleiades set in 4th Dynasty times. However, the Pleiades is a rather small asterism and perhaps this new idea is a little more plausible due to the larger scale of the stars involved.

What led me to this idea was reading about how in 4th Dynasty times Sirius would rise heliacally, indicating the approaching rise of the Nile, at the same time that the Leo star Algieba was also rising in the East and Altair was close to setting in the West. In fact, the Lower Egyptian version of Leo involved Sirius and Altair, as shown in this image. I guess it only applies in a certain nome, meaning locality. I found this about nome 20;

" 20th Nome Lower Egypt, Soped/ Sopedu /spdw (Plumed Falcon)
Location: North East Delta above and West end of Wadi Tummilat
Worshiped: Sopedu (Falcon patron of the east)
White Chapel (Het-net): 
Known for: Wadi was used by seasonal migrants from Sinai into Egypt."

https://seshkemet.weebly.com/nomes.html#20l

 

 

Here's how Altair and a small asterism known as the "knife" in Egypt look overlaid onto a CAD Great Pyramid drawing by Gantenbrink on his Cheops.org site. It's just the most accurate diagram I could find so I hope he doesn't mi if I used it. I did mention his site so it's sort of promotional use anyway.

 

Another interesting thing is that on that same day, July 20, 2585 BC, Venus was also visible in the eastern sky when Sirius rose and Procyon was due East at a little under 10 degrees altitude. The Sphinx appears to be gazing slightly upward from the horizon. Was it gazing at Procyon, or just in the general direction of Venus or Sirius? Procyon was more directly in front so may be the prime candidate. Of course, on the equinoxes it would be gazing at the rising sun, but that may not have been the only time it was gazing at something significant. Actually, when Venus rose that day, July 20, helical rising of Sirius, Altair was due West. Venus rose at about 22.5 degrees N of E at that time, so not at all directly in front of the Sphinx, just an interesting observation and another possible connection with Altair. Venus rose at that same spot every eight years, by the way. The CAD pyramid drawing can also be overlaid when Altair was due West, with only slight variation from the above image. I favor the Sirius rising timing myself but it could be either I suppose. Here's how that would look. In this case the lowest and brightest star of the knife asterism is in the middle of the KC.

 

 

I also attached two of the images to this post, in addition to the image hosting ones above, in case the hosting site deletes them someday, which does happen.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Bennu

[Bennu]

I think this image is more accurate. I found a thing that said that in Egypt the sun needed to be 7-8 degrees below the horizon for Sirius to be visible. That looks like July 15 in 2585 to me. Not much difference in the images actually, I just wanted to show the improved version. Altair is closer to the horizon in this one, the horizon line can be seen going through the QC passage.

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Bennu

[Jon the frog]

Probably that they are not above each other to gain more structural integrity. 

[Kenemet]

Well, that's a lot of work, but you could have rejected a number of those points if you stopped to look at the floor plans of earlier pyramids.  

For example, there's the Bent pyramid (constructed before Giza).  If the positions had the significance you attribute to them, then they would have been the same throughout all pyramids.

 

The other big flaw is that the nomes were not stable - the number of nomes in Egypt varied from millennia to millennia.  

The third flaw that I see in the paper you're referencing is that it goes quite astray when it tosses in the Book of the Dead.

 

 

[Bennu]

The Bent Pyramid may have it's chamber positions based on different stars than the Great Pyramid. About the nomes, they simply gave me the idea. Anyone can set an astronomy program to Giza 2585 BC and see that when Sirius was high enough above the horizon in the East to be visible, those stars I showed are what is prominent in the western sky just above the horizon. Giza is a necropolis, the western sky is where the dead went, Sirius was probably the most important star to the Giza Egyptians so it seems to be logical to me. It doesn't mean every pyramid was designed that way, just like not every pyramid was bent. Personal taste of the king involved I suppose.

By the way, I think the coffer is offset northward from the middle of the King's Chamber to correspond to the position of the lowest and brightest star of the Delphinus asterism known as the knife to the Egyptians, which one nome is actually named after. The nome with the Leo/Altair/Sirius correspondence is directly across the Nile from Giza, which may explain part of the reason for the apparent Great Pyramid chambers correlation with them. People probably lived over there, rather than in the actual necropolis, which would have been too creepy. Giza was in a nome called White Wall. Maybe someone can figure that one out. What stars form a white wall?

Edited July 13, 2018 by Bennu

[moonman]

7 hours ago, Bennu said:

What stars form a white wall?

I would assume the milky way.

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Bennu said:

The Bent Pyramid may have it's chamber positions based on different stars than the Great Pyramid.

If that's the case then you have to explain the stellar associations of all the pyramids' chambers (well over 100 of them) and why they're not the same.

Quote

About the nomes, they simply gave me the idea. Anyone can set an astronomy program to Giza 2585 BC and see that when Sirius was high enough above the horizon in the East to be visible, those stars I showed are what is prominent in the western sky just above the horizon. Giza is a necropolis, the western sky is where the dead went, 

Quote
Sirius was probably the most important star to the Giza Egyptians so it seems to be logical to me. It doesn't mean every pyramid was designed that way, just like not every pyramid was bent. Personal taste of the king involved I suppose.

The most important stars were the "undying stars" which circled the pole in the north.  They are mentioned in mortuary texts.  Sirius is not mentioned though it was known as a marker for when the Nile floods would occur.

Quote

By the way, I think the coffer is offset northward from the middle of the King's Chamber to correspond to the position of the lowest and brightest star of the Delphinus asterism known as the knife to the Egyptians, which one nome is actually named after.

* How do you know the nome is named after the asterism (scholarly link, please, not a "I just figured it out")

* I don't see any references to any group of stars known as "the knife."  Where des this come from?
 

Quote

The nome with the Leo/Altair/Sirius correspondence is directly across the Nile from Giza, which may explain part of the reason for the apparent Great Pyramid chambers correlation with them. People probably lived over there, rather than in the actual necropolis, which would have been too creepy. Giza was in a nome called White Wall. Maybe someone can figure that one out. What stars form a white wall?

There's no "nome directly across the Nile from Giza."  Giza was part of the nome.  

It's called "white wall" because the capital city of the nome (Waset) was the "City of the White Walls."  It had a big white wall around it.

[kmt_sesh]

Just a point of order, Kenemet. Waset was the name for Thebes, specifically the great temple of Thebes. Ineb-hedj was the ancient name for Memphis (see link).

There was certainly importance to the heavens for the ancient Egyptians, but modern people tend to overplay it significantly. Mesopotamians like the Babylonians were far more polished with the subject. The idea that "this pyramid lines up with this or that star" is an entirely modern constreuct, with very little corroboration to support it. To the Egyptians lining up certain monuments with the cadrinal directions was significantly more important.

Think of the mysterious "air" shafts in the Great Pyramid. When I first read of the theory that they were supposed to aim at specific stars, I liked the idea. Not so much now. The theory is entirely speculative, borne from the modern mind, so caution is in order. For one thing, those shafts are not even straight but tend to wind around inside the mass of the pyramid as they ascend.

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Just a point of order, Kenemet. Waset was the name for Thebes, specifically the great temple of Thebes. Ineb-hedj was the ancient name for Memphis (see link).

Ha!  That's what I get for not looking it up!

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Maybe ... just maybe.... they’re like that because that’s how they Ancient Egyptians wanted them to be.

[Lord Harry]

I recall reading somewhere that the precise layout of the internal chambers of the Great Pyramid had something to do with Osirian mythology.

This is all speculative nonsense of course, especially considering there is no evidence Osiris was worshipped or even conceived of before the end of the Fifth Dynasty.

[Piney]

*Turns on Yorkshire accent*

Oh, hello @Lord Harry  I've been at that other place trolling our friend.  They don't think much of him there either. 

[Lord Harry]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

*Turns on Yorkshire accent*

Oh, hello @Lord Harry  I've been at that other place trolling our friend.  They don't think much of him there either. 

LOL! I'll join you there soon. He's pretty much a pariah wherever he goes.

What did he say so far?

[Piney]

Just now, Lord Harry said:

LOL! I'll join you there soon. He's pretty much a pariah wherever he goes.

What did he say so far?

Nothing. 

I think I got banned with one post. 

[Lord Harry]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

Nothing. 

I think I got banned with one post. 

They banned you? Strange who the mods are biased against the sober minded. One crankish woman there want on a profanity laden tirade against me without even receiving a warning.

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

They banned you?

Not that I know of.

I'm about to dive into the Clovis thread. I think I might upset some carts. I must lurk more though.

[Lord Harry]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Not that I know of.

I'm about to dive into the Clovis thread. I think I might upset some carts. I must lurk more though.

The formatting there is weird though. Cladking likely responded to you, but responses can be hard to follow. Took me a while to get used to.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Lord Harry said:

The formatting there is weird though. Cladking likely responded to you, but responses can be hard to follow. Took me a while to get used to.

No, I'm picking on Roc. 

 

[Lord Harry]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

No, I'm picking on Roc. 

 

Oh didn't know he was there. LOL!

I'll pile on.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Lord Harry said:

Oh didn't know he was there. LOL!

I'll pile on.

I've been trying to find the thread for the past 10 minutes. It was a word salad and I just asked him the same 3 questions I've been asking for a month. He probably deleted it. 

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

Oh didn't know he was there. LOL!

I'll pile on.

Meh, I'm just going to play with Legos with my grandgoober......

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Lord Harry said:

They banned you? Strange who the mods are biased against the sober minded. One crankish woman there want on a profanity laden tirade against me without even receiving a warning.

Hi Harry

They are probably UM fringe refugees.

jmccr8

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Meh, I'm just going to play with Legos with my grandgoober......

Are you guy talking about the Hancock forum? If not that, which one. 

I love playing with Legos with my nephew. I buy him sets. Damn, Legos are expensive these days. But I think I enjoy them so much because I LOVED them when I was a kid.

[Kenemet]

34 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Are you guy talking about the Hancock forum? If not that, which one. 

I love playing with Legos with my nephew. I buy him sets. Damn, Legos are expensive these days. But I think I enjoy them so much because I LOVED them when I was a kid.

I have my own Legos.  I play with them, too.

[kmt_sesh]

23 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I have my own Legos.  I play with them, too.

We should have a UM Lego party.