Trial runs for fascism are in full flow

[aztek]

nope,  no one buys your snake oil, come back later, 

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, aztek said:

nope,  no one buys your snake oil, come back later, 

LOL  thats what I love about this site. Deep philosophical conversations

 ...yes aztek I recognize I used some words you probably didnt grasp, its OK this conversation was really meant for grown ups

[aztek]

more crap from a liberal shill, lol,  how is the snake oil business? sold any yet?  proof of collusion perhaps? lmao. 

[Merc14]

8 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Its time to grow up and walk the walk Merc. You claim patriotism and you claim to care about the constitution, well, its time to shed the comfort of bitter partisanship and look at the reality that "winning" that partisanship is going to create for the long term health of the constitution.

As for the term fascism , i didnt write the OP article, if you prefer the term totalitarianism I think that works as well. Regardless of what title we give it this administration is working overtime to erode the power of congress and the judiciary as it relates to presidential oversight.

Considering when this thread was started, and considering what we see happening in congress today, it seems quite prescient.

Time for you to grow up and admit you have been 100% wrong about most everything since November 2016.  Trump has deregulated and pulled back the federal government, the exact opposite of what Obama was doing.   Congress is the problem because hey don't seem to want to carry their branch of the government, they'd rather cede power to the judiciary than make the hard decisions and since the dems won the house they have done nothing but attack Trump. The author of that stupid article doesn't seem to understand what fascism is and seems to blame only republicans for all the world's ills. You grow up and stop preaching to the ignorant masses, they are looking right back at you and mumbling "The guy is never right about anything yet he keeps preaching like he is he only person who sees the truth."

[Farmer77]

16 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Time for you to grow up and admit you have been 100% wrong about most everything since November 2016.

LOL Sloganeering......nice replacement for real patriotism youve developed there 

16 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Trump has deregulated and pulled back the federal government, the exact opposite of what Obama was doing.  

Weird I dont recall saying he wouldnt do that.

16 hours ago, Merc14 said:

  Congress is the problem because hey don't seem to want to carry their branch of the government, they'd rather cede power to the judiciary than make the hard decisions and since the dems won the house they have done nothing but attack Trump.

You accuse congress of ceding power to the judiciary yet it is Team Trump trying to run to the judiciary rather than submit to congress. How exactly do you square that on a factual basis?

 

16 hours ago, Merc14 said:

The author of that stupid article doesn't seem to understand what fascism is and seems to blame only republicans for all the world's ills. You grow up and stop preaching to the ignorant masses, they are looking right back at you and mumbling "The guy is never right about anything yet he keeps preaching like he is he only person who sees the truth."

Truthfully its been so long since I posted the OP i honestly have no idea what its even about anymore. The articles ive posted in this thread since then have become much more pertinent as we can see the active disdain Team Trump has for the constitution and the checks and balances and the measures taken out of that disdain evolve.

 

[+and-then]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:08 PM, GlitterRose said:

Well...this is a **** show.

*wanders back to the music section*

Well, Farmer DID start it and we all know about how Farmers like to spread manure

 

[Tatetopa]

Does all of the talk of Military Tribunals and executions instead of letting civil courts handle things a sign of fascism?

[Space Commander Travis]

On 02/05/2019 at 4:47 AM, Farmer77 said:

Its time to grow up and walk the walk Merc. You claim patriotism and you claim to care about the constitution, well, its time to shed the comfort of bitter partisanship and look at the reality that "winning" that partisanship is going to create for the long term health of the constitution.

As for the term fascism , i didnt write the OP article, if you prefer the term totalitarianism I think that works as well. Regardless of what title we give it this administration is working overtime to erode the power of congress and the judiciary as it relates to presidential oversight.

Considering when this thread was started, and considering what we see happening in congress today, it seems quite prescient.

I'm not so skeptical as I was, but I think one thing that's clear is that it isn't the Dear Leader that's the evil genius driving everything through the power of his will, but it's those who "advise" him, and above all his "National Security Advisers" , who have their own agenda to pursue and just provoke him to an emotional response - "Those poor children!" usually, just show him a picture of some photogenic children who you claim have just been massacred by whichever foreign villain you want to overthrow next, and he's anybody's. The "Leader" is just a powerless dummy. 

[Farmer77]

Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

I'm not so skeptical as I was, but I think one thing that's clear is that it isn't the Dear Leader that's the evil genius driving everything through the power of his will, but it's those who "advise" him, and above all his "National Security Advisers" , who have their own agenda to pursue and just provoke him to an emotional response - "Those poor children!" usually, just show him a picture of some photogenic children who you claim have just been massacred by whichever foreign villain you want to overthrow next, and he's anybody's. The "Leader" is just a powerless dummy. 

Agreed.... I think for Trump the individual its most likely just living in the moment and acting based on instinct.

[RoofGardener]

Hmmm... a question, @Farmer77. 

Your article suggests that the seeds of fascism (or authoritarianism, if you prefer) are being sowed - or nurtured - at the current time. 

But tell me... has there been a decade since WW2 where this has NOT been the case ? 

[Farmer77]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm... a question, @Farmer77. 

Your article suggests that the seeds of fascism (or authoritarianism, if you prefer) are being sowed - or nurtured - at the current time. 

But tell me... has there been a decade since WW2 where this has NOT been the case ? 

God I have to go back and read the OP article. I keep getting questioned on it the last couple of days but I posted it long enough ago I dont recall it.

Anyways speaking generically in the pedantic sense of course not. Speaking practically however no American society in recent history has not had such a loud, public and constant drumbeat for fascism as we have today. Of course the vast majority are simply beating the drum for "their side" to win but its that very short sighted mentality that has led us to where we are.

 

[RoofGardener]

5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

God I have to go back and read the OP article. I keep getting questioned on it the last couple of days but I posted it long enough ago I dont recall it.

Anyways speaking generically in the pedantic sense of course not. Speaking practically however no American society in recent history has not had such a loud, public and constant drumbeat for fascism as we have today. Of course the vast majority are simply beating the drum for "their side" to win but its that very short sighted mentality that has led us to where we are.

That's very interesting @Farmer77. 

Speaking as a Brit, I'd say that we have authoritarianism - from both the left and the right - cropping up every decade since the end of WW2. They always dissipate and come to nothing, only to be reinvented for the NEXT decade, and so it goes. 

Under the aegis of the European Onion the left-authoritarianists have gradually been gaining ascendancy (very slowly, over a period of 40 years), but we now seem to be in a bit of a backlash against it, with a number of European countries electing "right-wing" governments. And thus it goes. 

[Space Commander Travis]

18 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

God I have to go back and read the OP article. I keep getting questioned on it the last couple of days but I posted it long enough ago I dont recall it.

Anyways speaking generically in the pedantic sense of course not. Speaking practically however no American society in recent history has not had such a loud, public and constant drumbeat for fascism as we have today. Of course the vast majority are simply beating the drum for "their side" to win but its that very short sighted mentality that has led us to where we are.

 

but what do you define as fascism? 

[Farmer77]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That's very interesting @Farmer77. 

Speaking as a Brit, I'd say that we have authoritarianism - from both the left and the right - cropping up every decade since the end of WW2. They always dissipate and come to nothing, only to be reinvented for the NEXT decade, and so it goes. 

Under the aegis of the European Onion the left-authoritarianists have gradually been gaining ascendancy (very slowly, over a period of 40 years), but we now seem to be in a bit of a backlash against it, with a number of European countries electing "right-wing" governments. And thus it goes. 

You know I went back and reread the OP and yeah Id argue that no at no time in post ww2 American history have we had the steps towards fascism being sprinted through by a major political party.  I dont recall who said it first but if Nixon would have had Foxnews and "alternative facts" he never would have left office.

I think there is an argument to be made that the left has incrementally been moving towards a totalitarian type status here in the US but its really hard to separate necessary regulations from intentional manipulation on that front.

[Space Commander Travis]

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism,^[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,^[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.^[6] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War Ibefore it spread to other European countries.^[6] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.^{[6][7][8][9][10][11]}

I mean, authoritarian ultrastrangulation may be one thing, but dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,? come now 

[RoofGardener]

2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

You know I went back and reread the OP and yeah Id argue that no at no time in post ww2 American history have we had the steps towards fascism being sprinted through by a major political party.  I dont recall who said it first but if Nixon would have had Foxnews and "alternative facts" he never would have left office.

I think there is an argument to be made that the left has incrementally been moving towards a totalitarian type status here in the US but its really hard to separate necessary regulations from intentional manipulation on that front.

Oh I dunno @Farmer77. You could argue that Kennedy's "military-industrial complex" was an attempt to subvert government ? 

Oh, I wrote (modified) a little poem. 

Round
Like a circus in a spiral
Like a Wheel within a Wheel
Never ending nor beginning
On an ever-spinning Reel
Macrons running into trouble
With the Yellow-vested louts
Merkels fortunes are a' turning
Allah Ahkbar migrants shouts
Victor Orban's on the uprise
Despite all the EU's fines.
And across the wide Atlantic,
Trump Derangement Syndrome's flare
Meuller's practically monastic
And the baffled people stare
Like the Circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

but what do you define as fascism? 

 I guess violent dictatorial nationalism would be a basic definition but im not hung up on the term, simple dictatorship or totalitarianism  may currently fit better but god forbid a hispanic individual commits an act of terrorism and we'll see that violent part sneak in a little more prominently.

 

[Farmer77]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

You could argue that Kennedy's "military-industrial complex" was an attempt to subvert government ? 

No. Eisenhowers comment was an attempt at putting government employees back in their place. The military isnt the government, by design.

[Space Commander Travis]

Yes, but even if he wanted to be dictatorial, he's blocked in every single thing he wants to do by the Communists Democrats, isn't he. Which perhaps is why there's always a handy Foreign Villain to divert the nation's attention to hatred of, isn't there,  

[Farmer77]

4 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I mean, authoritarian ultrastrangulation may be one thing, but dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,? come now 

Well the POTUS now refuses to allow his administration to answer any subpoenas from congress. Whats the next step? Do you think he would allow the sergeant at arms to arrest Barr or any one of his other insiders? If not how would he stop it?  If he sanctioned violence to stop it how would he be censured since he has already declared congress has no power over him?

Again keep in mind im talking long term health of America not just the current present danger at 1600 penn ave. We have an administration that is actively grooming American society to accept dictatorship (whether intentional or not) . No matter how much they love Trump people have to slow down and recognize the long term unintended consequences of the short term endorphin rush of "winning" for the party.

[Space Commander Travis]

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Well the POTUS now refuses to allow his administration to answer any subpoenas from congress. Whats the next step? Do you think he would allow the sergeant at arms to arrest Barr or any one of his other insiders? If not how would he stop it?  If he sanctioned violence to stop it how would he be censured since he has already declared congress has no power over him?

Again keep in mind im talking long term health of America not just the current present danger at 1600 penn ave. We have an administration that is actively grooming American society to accept dictatorship (whether intentional or not) . No matter how much they love Trump people have to slow down and recognize the long term unintended consequences of the short term endorphin rush of "winning" for the party.

But what I keep trying to point out is that the Communist opposition in Congress block him from doing any of the ideas that occur to him and which he instantly commits to Twitter. And if a prerequisite for dictatorship is control of the media; well, for goodness sake. The first thing for any self respecting dictator to do is outlaw opposition parties and take control of the media. 

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

But what I keep trying to point out is that the Communist opposition in Congress block him from doing any of the ideas that occur to him and which he instantly commits to Twitter.

I hear you and youre not wrong , what i keep trying to point out is in todays climate how long will congress have that power over the POTUS? Trump circumvented them to build his wall, he regularly keeps them from having oversight on his appointments with "temporary" hires, and like I said he has publicly declared his admin wont comply with subpoenas from congress. Most worrying is the fact that his base is cheering him on in these actions. 

 

7 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

And if a prerequisite for dictatorship is control of the media; well, for goodness sake. The first thing for any self respecting dictator to do is outlaw opposition parties and take control of the media. 

These last couple of years have truly ended up being a test of the American system and the next two will be even bigger ones.  Again man I really dont think its Trump's goal to become a dictator. Its simply the unintended consequences of having a self centered individual with no respect for anything holding the highest office in the land.

To your points though think about Foxnews when Trump declared he was running. They were just about as friendly to him as CNN. Now theyre purely propaganda as Hannity coordinates their message with the WH daily. The man then neutered any remaining media with his supporters by labeling them enemies of the people. 

As for outlawing opposition parties, have you read any of the rhetoric in the Mueller Probe 2 thread? Or for fun wade into this corner of Trumpism https://twitter.com/hashtag/qanon?f=tweets&vertical=news&lang=en   It used to be that such fringe voices were just that; on the fringes. Today however such ignorance driven hatred is the base and not just to opposition "parties" but to their own members who dare step out of line and question the dear leader. Which brings me back to my point about the long term health of America.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RoofGardener]

30 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Well the POTUS now refuses to allow his administration to answer any subpoenas from congress. Whats the next step? Do you think he would allow the sergeant at arms to arrest Barr or any one of his other insiders? If not how would he stop it?  If he sanctioned violence to stop it how would he be censured since he has already declared congress has no power over him?

Again keep in mind im talking long term health of America not just the current present danger at 1600 penn ave. We have an administration that is actively grooming American society to accept dictatorship (whether intentional or not) . No matter how much they love Trump people have to slow down and recognize the long term unintended consequences of the short term endorphin rush of "winning" for the party.

IS this a symptom of fascism ? Or is it Congress that has weaponised (and hence subverted) the subpoena process for political purposes, and the Executive is resisting this ? 

[Farmer77]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

IS this a symptom of fascism ? Or is it Congress that has weaponised (and hence subverted) the subpoena process for political purposes, and the Executive is resisting this ? 

Honestly the fact that you asked that question I think is kind of proof that it is and that there is a media machine working towards it. .....WHAT THE HELL KIND OF NEW AGE DOUBLE SPEAK ****ERY IS THIS?????? OF COURSE ITS POLITICAL the entire damn congress is political. If you dont like politics dont become a politician. As is there are rules that govern politicians so they dont become dictators, bypass those rules and you may just be acting like a dictator.

I especially love the line that "congress is biased" (put on your most serious face when reading that) so they dont have to concede to the request. WHAT? The same morons making that argument would have had a gungasm over the opportunity to rebel against Obama had he told congress to get bent over Benghazi because they were biased.

 

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Honestly the fact that you asked that question I think is kind of proof that it is and that there is a media machine working towards it. .....WHAT THE HELL KIND OF NEW AGE DOUBLE SPEAK ****ERY IS THIS?????? OF COURSE ITS POLITICAL the entire damn congress is political. If you dont like politics dont become a politician. As is there are rules that govern politicians so they dont become dictators, bypass those rules and you may just be acting like a dictator.

I especially love the line that "congress is biased" (put on your most serious face when reading that) so they dont have to concede to the request. WHAT? The same morons making that argument would have had a gungasm over the opportunity to rebel against Obama had he told congress to get bent over Benghazi because they were biased.

 

Well, a committee is supposed to subpeona a witness if it thinks that the witness may have insight into an investigation that the committee is legitimately .. um.. investigating. By legitimately, I mean it has reasonable grounds for concern, and that concern falls within the remit of the committee. 

I get the impression that many of these committees are basically "out to get Trump", and their investigations are highly spurious. Their subpeona's are not so much to get information,as to disrupt the operation of the Executive, and to harass and bully its members.