Trial runs for fascism are in full flow

[+OverSword]

24 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

YES! As was I when Bush appointees did the same at his behest . Honestly this hugely makes my point. Each time the system is bucked it normalizes bucking the system.

Due to these behaviors, as I said above, we are dying a death of a thousand cuts. The reason for discussing it urgently today is the rate those cuts are inflicted has accelerated to break neck speed.

 

Not me. Not worried a bit. One point made on the program I watched and why this is not a thing to be worried about in the USA especially in this day and age is that in nations where fascism has risen it was where the populace was already conditioned for a strong man. An emperor, a czar, a king, a Kaiser etc. We here would never stand for it. It’s nothing to worry about. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by OverSword

[Farmer77]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Not me. Not worried a bit. One point made on the program I watched and why this is not a thing to be worried about in the USA especially in this day and age is that in nations where fascism has risen it was where the populace was already conditioned for a strong man. An emperor, a czar, a king, a Kaiser etc. We here would never stand for it. It’s nothing to worry about. 

The authors of that program dont spend enough time on conservative media. A media wholly designed to entertain a population who believes they are constantly under attack and  is constantly looking for the return of their lord and savior. They do desperately  want a strong man to smack down all the evildoers

From today 

Quote

During the opening prayer at President Trump’s re-election campaign kickoff rally in Orlando, Trump’s spiritual adviser, Paula White, claimed that “demonic networks” have worked together against the president and “his purpose.” “Let every demonic network that has aligned itself against the purpose, against the calling of President Trump, let it be broken, let it be torn down in the name of Jesus,” White said, according to The Hill. “I declare that President Trump will overcome every strategy from Hell and every strategy from the enemy... I secure his calling, I secure his purpose, I secure his family and we secure victory in the name which is above every name... the name of Jesus Christ.”

 

[Black Red Devil]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

I'm not the one who was calling people names now, was I.  Answer already entered. 

And if I would have sulked to the mods, which I wouldn't, you would know.

Oh really!  That's interesting, it would be a first where a post gets deleted because someone else doesn't understand an English word.  Different English I suppose but the way the sentence was laid out a simple search would have revealed the word meant bloke, fellow, chap.  As I said analytical doesn't seem to be your forte (oops, might have done it again, you do understand forte right?). 

You on the other hand did insult, twice, without reason.  Ignorant (as in being an ignorant, not as in ignoring something) and a poo$$y and then wish I get run over.  A real trooper who then plays the victim card and sulks.

 

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

4 hours ago, OverSword said:

Not me. Not worried a bit. One point made on the program I watched and why this is not a thing to be worried about in the USA especially in this day and age is that in nations where fascism has risen it was where the populace was already conditioned for a strong man. An emperor, a czar, a king, a Kaiser etc. We here would never stand for it. It’s nothing to worry about. 

The distortions and cries of fascism regarding Trump are laughable.

With Germany they were historically the Holy Roman Empire and they used to elect their emperor to look after the interests of the block. They spent nearly 1000 years under that system and it worked great for them. What you dont realise is that after WW1 when Germany was going belly up they looked back at their good times and thought.... this Democracy stuff doesnt work. Lets turn back the clock and find ourselves a new emperor. And in Hitler they saw their new emperor.

Obviously Austria joined the German Reich. But Hungary and Italy (both of which were wholly or largely HRE too) both got their own fascist dictators. Outside the HRE regions Spain also got its. With Anglo-American civilization only the UK has ever had dictators but we call ours Lord Protectors. All of ours have come to power during a religious conflict or political crises. 

Two of our most famous ones were Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange. Cromwell was made Lord Protector by Parliament (notice no coup present) to stop the country being re-aligned back to Catholicism. Additionally he was the one that actually gave the UK its first proper Democracy. With William of Orange he was a Dutch ruler who we invited across to be our Lord Protector (yes, we asked him to be our dictator) to stop the rise of Catholicism. 

Trump is nothing like Hitler or a dictator. He lacks both the charisma and the kind of crises present in US society which would make the Americans need one. The USA is a stable prosperous country. I can only envision two scenarios that would make the US want an autocratic ruler. The first will come when their country is slipping from top spot as the American people go nationalistic to try and preserve their standards of life. The second is if they are on the receiving end of a devastating military attack.

The snowflakes trying to portray Trump as being like Hitler should be ignored. Those hyper-sensitive, hysterical, far-left morons, cannot cope unless they get their own way on everything in life. And this is just cry baby behaviour aimed at trying to undermine a legitimate president. Trump is doing an amazing job on the US economy, and hopefully will be able to complete his wall. I really cant believe that the snowflakes across the pond were trying to make out that Trump wants to be King following his recent visit to the UK.

It will make my day to watch him get elected for a second term, in fake it will be hilarious. Over here in the UK our London Mayor Khan is on his last days in office. Our politicians have started saying he should go following his unprofessionalism over Trump and the fake that the guy it totally useless at his job. How many people have died so far this week in London due knife attacks? Khan couldn't organise a pee-up in a brewery.

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

The snowflakes trying to portray Trump as being like Hitler should be ignored. Those hyper-sensitive, hysterical, far-left morons, cannot cope unless they get their own way on everything in life.

I agree those trying to portray Trump as being like Hitler should be ignored.

As should those downplaying the Trump regime's efforts to erode checks on presidential power.  Its happening. I can discuss it without hyperbole and insults. Can you?

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I agree those trying to portray Trump as being like Hitler should be ignored.

As should those downplaying the Trump regime's efforts to erode checks on presidential power.  Its happening. I can discuss it without hyperbole and insults. Can you?

How is he trying to erode checks on presidential power?

Do you mean trying to find a way to get his wall built?

Edited June 19, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[Farmer77]

Just now, RabidMongoose said:

How is he trying to erode checks on presidential power?

Do you mean trying to find a way to get his wall built?

Well going around congress for wall funds is kinda the big one, IMO, but there is certainly more. Bypassing congress' ability to confirm appointments Donald Trump's preference for 'acting' senior officials alarms experts and allies Here's Why Some Are Questioning the Constitutionality of Trump's New Acting AG  ,  Refusing to comply with congressional subpoenas The House just voted to hold Attorney General William Barr and former White House counsel Don McGahn in civil contempt, wholly ignoring things like the hatch act  Trump won't fire Conway despite federal agency recommendation and FEC oversight FEC chair responds to Trump saying he'd accept foreign intel on opponent: 'It is illegal',  the constant public attacks on the courts and judges    In His Own Words: The President's Attacks on the Courts  culminating in the attempt to make the public believe that the courts themselves are unconstitutional Trump's attorney general has a real problem with federal courts upholding the law.  of course long before he took office he was convincing the public that the law enforcement that would oversee him if POTUS was corrupt Trump pledges to accept election results — ‘if I win’ , overriding national security protocols in favor of nepotism Trump ordered Kelly to grant Kushner security clearance: NY Times ,

Of course you then have all his actions during the Mueller investigations. The obstruction case is simply damning. John Oliver sums up one of the ten examples of obstruction really well 

Quote

He pointed to the 10 instances of possible obstruction of justice outlined in the Mueller Report, including Trump’s repeated orders to then-White House Counsel Don McGahn to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller, the person investigating him (which McGahn reportedly called “crazy ****”). If that weren’t enough, the report outlined how Trump then pressured McGahn to put out a statement denying that he’d tried to remove Mueller and wanted McGahn to write a letter to that effect for their records.  

“To recap there, it seems the president obstructed justice—then obstructed justice again to obstruct the investigation into his obstruction of justice. It’s ridiculous,” said Oliver. “Here’s why it really matters: But for Don McGahn, Trump might have stopped an investigation into himself, and if a president can shut down an investigation, he can basically do anything with no consequences. It’s a big, big deal.”

 

Then if you move away from your exact question the psychological efforts he is undertaking to chip away at our union really are astounding.  Just look at his horribly incorrect interpretation of Article 2 of our constitution. Trump Insists the Constitution's Article II 'Allows Me to Do Whatever I Want'  . Do you think its lil George Stephanapolous he is trying to convince with that statement or his base? Who by the way he is also "joking-not-joking" with about not leaving office after the election because he's "owed" two more years.

Whats absolutely crazy is all of that is just off the top of my stoner ass brain.

You can absolutely isolate each and every one of those instances (and the ones ive forgotten about) and find harmless justifications for each , but, when taken in totality the administration's actions really paint a  picture.

I guess I dont honestly expect you to pore over all those links, but man, things are happening over here.

 

 

[Phaeton80]

On 18-6-2019 at 5:24 AM, OverSword said:

You know, it seems to me that we have a full fledged fascist government on this planet right now and it’s not the USA. The USA is nothing like a fascist nation and it’s the height of ignorance of fascism to say that it is. The fascist nation on this planet is named China. 

China has a state run economy in which the individual serves the state not in which the states function is to protect the rights of the individual. China’s current leader has passed laws making it illegal to criticize him and making everything he says right. China has one political party and it’s illegal to oppose it.  They check every fascist box on the list.

 

The question if the USA is turning into a fascist state obviously depends on the definition of the term.. But both nations mentioned here do seem to have a lot more in common than most of us want to believe.

The level of control corporations have over Western nations, USA in particular, is a real problem. Its such a problem, it could be argued most laws that pass are in fact in favor of said corporations, no matter how they are sold in the public eye. It could safely be argued such a government is not governed by, nor for the people. The state has merged with those multinational corporate interests, government corruption reigning free. The main beneficiary of government policy are unnatural persons instead of the natural variant, while the rights of the latter are being deconstructed baby step by baby step.. Surveillance and loss of privacy, personal sovereignty are increasing in a similar pattern. Media is the opposite of what it should represent, uncritical and promoting thesame propagandised soundbites across the board.

Now wether youd want to call that (a move towards) fascism doesnt really matter, it is an extremely disconcerting clearcut pattern which will inadvertantly result in ourselves and our offspring 'having a really, really bad time'.

China is explicitly doing what the US has been implicitly moving towards over the last couple of decades. Their state is already and completely being run like a corporation, where peoples rights are low and can be easily taken away, censoring, and suveillance and loss of privacy already at impressive levels. The US does thesame albeit in an earlier state, only more implicitly, camouflaged by a massive propaganda machine known as the mainstream media (including Fox and Breitbart, they are no different). The main difference seems to be that the Chinese know they are getting fed propaganda by their government, Americans (and Westerners as a whole) seem to think they are excempt of it. Its interesting to note that both nations seem to move towards eachother, where China is attempting to gain some of the US traits (implicit, tacit control) while the US seems to be moving towards a more explicit control (based on the magic 'national security', since 9-11 2001).

Seems to me both are testing grounds, both are trying the best, optimal formula..

[Phaeton80]

Quote

A new kind of fascism has taken over America: the merger of corporations and government whereby corporate power dominates. With the emergence of ever-larger multinational corporations -- due to consolidation facilitated by the Federal Reserve's endless FIAT money -- the corporatocracy has been in a position to literally purchase the U.S. Congress. A James Jaeger Film featuring RON PAUL, Congressman/Presidential Candidate; PAT BUCHANAN, Author/Political Analyst; G. EDWARD GRIFFIN, Author/Producer; EDWIN VIEIRA, Author/Constitutional Attorney and TED BAEHR, Founder of MovieGuide and Christian Film & TV Commission. A result of the corporate purchase of Congress is that many of the nation's "laws" have been re-configured to benefit WE THE CORPORATIONS, rather than WE THE PEOPLE. "Laws" like NAFTA and GATT resulted in the outsourcing of the U.S. manufacturing base and the destruction of the Middle Class. This is nothing less than the 1 Percenters abusing the 99 Percenters. Known as "monopoly capitalism," "crony capitalism," "mercantilism," "globalization," "the new world order," and/or "free trade" -- this is NOT your Grandfather's capitalism.
 

 

 

[+OverSword]

9 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

You on the other hand did insult, twice, without reason.  Ignorant (as in being an ignorant, not as in ignoring something) and a poo$$y and then wish I get run over.  A real trooper who then plays the victim card and sulks.

Re-read it. Didn’t call you *****

[+OverSword]

@Phaeton80 very good point and posts. The only criticism I can make, which absolutely does not diminish the concerns raised by you, is that it’s been like that since WWII, and actually started around 1913. So I don’t feel like we’re in any immediate danger of becoming more like the old fascist regimes or like modern China, we certainly aren’t burning books or being punished for criticizing our government and we have more than one party to vote for. If my sense is right we will have at least 4 viable parties to vote for in the legislative branch earlier than a decade from now and the stranglehold of the Republican and Democrat parties will be greatly diminished. 

[Phaeton80]

16 minutes ago, OverSword said:

@Phaeton80 very good point and posts. The only criticism I can make, which absolutely does not diminish the concerns raised by you, is that it’s been like that since WWII, and actually started around 1913. So I don’t feel like we’re in any immediate danger of becoming more like the old fascist regimes or like modern China, we certainly aren’t burning books or being punished for criticizing our government and we have more than one party to vote for. If my sense is right we will have at least 4 viable parties to vote for in the legislative branch earlier than a decade from now and the stranglehold of the Republican and Democrat parties will be greatly diminished. 

 

Quite right, thas been a long process.. you seem to be referring to the National Security Act 1947(?), and Federal Reserve Act (1913) - which are indeed two of the main enablers of the situation we seem to find ourselves in. America's innocence, purity, righteousness, started to sway after WWII.. completely agree. It got handed the new superpower / empire status, taking over GB's position, and all ethical lowpoints that go with such a position. I wouldnt say no one is being punished for ciriticising the government, seeing as how certain journalists are treated as enemies of the state. You have more than one party, yes; you have erm.. two, just enough to create a false dichotomy to throw the wool over the eyes o/t masses; both neatly nestled in an inherently corrupt system.

Im curious, what makes you think there will be 4 viable parties anytime soon?

[Phaeton80]

9 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I agree those trying to portray Trump as being like Hitler should be ignored.

As should those downplaying the Trump regime's efforts to erode checks on presidential power.  Its happening. I can discuss it without hyperbole and insults. Can you?

This is going to sound ridiculous, Im quite ware of that.. But Hitler actually acted as a true People's Champion in the early stages of his role, he in fact saved Germany from the criminal Treaty of Versailles (falsely cast the blame of WWI), and from international bankers which all but controlled what was left of the pummeled German economy, with hyperinflation and massive unemployment running rampant.. It would be akin to Trump killing the Federal Reserve Act and agressively moving against the control of Wallstreet, starting to print state notes instead of bank notes claiming the right to issue money should lie with the state, to subsequently plan and execute massive infrastructure projects to enrich the people as well as the state.

Quote

When Hitler came to power, Germany was hopelessly broke. The Treaty of Versailles had imposed crushing reparations on the German people, demanding that Germans repay every 
nation's costs of the war. These costs totaled three times the value of all the property in Germany. 

Private currency speculators caused the German mark to plummet, precipitating one of the worst runaway inflations in modern times. A wheelbarrow full of 100 billion-mark 
banknotes could not buy a loaf of bread. The national treasury was empty. Countless homes and farms were lost to speculators and to private (Jewish controlled) banks. 
Germans lived in hovels. 
They were starving. 

Nothing like this had ever happened before - the total destruction of the national currency, plus the wiping out of people's savings and businesses. On top of this came a 
global depression. Germany had no choice but to succumb to debt slavery under international (mainly Jewish) bankers until 1933, when the National Socialists came to power. 
At that point the German government thwarted the international banking cartels by issuing its own money. World Jewry responded by declaring a global boycott against 
Germany. 

Hitler began a national credit program by devising a plan of public works that included flood control, repair of public buildings and private residences, and construction 
of new roads, bridges, canals, and port facilities. All these were paid for with money that no longer came from the private international bankers. 

The projected cost of these various programs was fixed at one billion units of the national currency. To pay for this, the German government (not the international bankers)
issued bills of exchange, called Labor Treasury Certificates. In this way the National Socialists put millions of people to work, and paid them with Treasury Certificates. 

Within two years, the unemployment problem had been solved, and Germany was back on its feet. It had a solid, stable currency, with no debt, and no inflation, at a time 
when millions of people in the United States and other Western countries (controlled by international bankers) were still out of work. Within five years, Germany went 
from the poorest nation in Europe to the richest. 

[..]

This economic freedom made Hitler extremely popular with the German people. Germany was rescued from English economic theory, which says that all currency must be borrowed 
against the gold owned by a private and secretive banking cartel ~ such as the Federal Reserve, or the Central Bank of Europe ~ rather than issued by the government 
for the benefit of the people. 

https://archive.org/stream/HowHitlerDefiedTheInternationalBankers/HowHitlerDefiedTheBankers_djvu.txt

So no, Trump is not like Hitler, not in that sense anyway. And please, dont get me wrong; Hitler did some crazy scandalous sh*, but its not as black & white as most would have you believe..

Edited June 19, 2019 by Phaeton80

[+OverSword]

37 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Im curious, what makes you think there will be 4 viable parties anytime soon?

The growing disillusion with the two big parties.  The Green Party, Libertarian party, and Socialist party have record memberships.  When Bernie or some other big socialism candidate doesn't get the presidential nomination in the next election you will see the democrats lose even more support than they've lost already.  People who are republican for the value of fiscal responsibility and small federal government will start to recognize that Libertarians represent that much better than modern Republicans.  The two main obstacles now are educating people not to focus on the office of the President and start electing senators and local and state governments from other parties, and once that is done focusing on campaign finance reform.  Of course the irony is, that will be tough without campaign finance reform .

Edited June 19, 2019 by OverSword

[Phaeton80]

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The growing disillusion with the two big parties.  The Green Party, Libertarian party, and Socialist party have record memberships.  When Bernie or some other big socialism candidate doesn't get the presidential nomination in the next election you will see the democrats lose even more support than they've lost already.  People who are republican for the value of fiscal responsibility and small federal government will start to recognize that Libertarians represent that much better than modern Republicans.  The two main obstacles now are educating people not to focus on the office of the President and start electing senators and local and state governments from other parties, and once that is done focusing on campaign finance reform.  Of course the irony is, that will be tough without campaign finance reform .

 

Educating the people (1), get the people politically involved (2), reforming campaign finance landscape (3) you say..

And you think this is feasable, evenmore; you expect this to foment within the next 10 years or so?

Good luck with that.

Hate to be the party pooper here, but that sounds like a nice serving of a steaming pile of false hope to me. Then again, Im known to be a negative nancy, so yeah.. fingers crossed!

[+OverSword]

12 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Educating the people (1), get the people politically involved (2), reforming campaign finance landscape (3) you say..

And you think this is feasable, evenmore; you expect this to foment within the next 10 years or so?

Good luck with that.

Hate to be the party pooper here, but that sounds like a nice serving of a steaming pile of false hope to me. Then again, Im known to be a negative nancy, so yeah.. fingers crossed!

And yet look at what won the presidency pretending to be a republican.  That happened because the people want something different.  That's how Obama and Trump got elected.  After being disillusioned with the actual non-change of Obama they went for even more extreme change.  We want something different and the oligarchs in the two big parties cannot or will not change therefore they will be reduced and possible collapse entirely.

[Phaeton80]

8 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And yet look at what won the presidency pretending to be a republican.  That happened because the people want something different.  That's how Obama and Trump got elected.  After being disillusioned with the actual non-change of Obama they went for even more extreme change.  We want something different and the oligarchs in the two big parties cannot or will not change therefore they will be reduced and possible collapse entirely.

Yes, and thats different from any of the elections before this one because... ?

Thats the whole magic of controlling both, or all sides isnt it; your candidate promises all sorts of BS, comes into office and 'forgets' all he promised (to the people, not to the hand that feeds him, being 'not the people'). The people get frustrated with that candidate during the subsequent 4 or 8 years, then the people decide they 'want something different'.. so they choose the competition. The competition promises all sorts of BS (focused on the frustration points of his/her competitor), forces some changes in the margin to boost the perception of (a semblance of) change, and thesame thing happens all over again, and again, and again, and again.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Phaeton80

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Yes, and thats different from any of the elections before this one because... ?

Because as mentioned earlier, enrollment for third parties is increasing.  I believe that trend will continue and we already see greater representation of third party at the city, county, and state level.  Did you know that Bernie Sanders is not a democrat?  He changes his status at election time in order to use the DNC's campaign fund to finance his campaign for the presidency.  The democrats allow him to do this to help attract more far leftists to vote democrat.  IMO the result of this will be many disillusioned people in the democratic party that will ultimately leave and increase numbers in the Green Party or the Socialists.  I think something similar is happening to people tired of hearing about financially responsible government from Republicans who regardless of lip service continually raise the debt ceiling and borrow more and more from the fed.  The Libertarian party will increasingly attract them.  If people will just start voting for a candidate rather than against the one they're worried about getting elected it's only a matter of time before we have huge third and fourth party numbers throughout our system.  I think this is going to happen much sooner than most believe.

[+OverSword]

18 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Oh poor thing, you don't understand English-English. 

Quote

 

 

 

sod something (British English, taboo, slang) (only used in orders) a swear word that many people find offensive, used when somebody is annoyed about something or to show that they do not care about something Sod this car! It's always breaking down.Oh, sod it! I'm not doing any more.We’re going on holiday and sod the expense.

 

Word Originverb early 19th cent.: abbreviation of sodomite.

 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/sod_2

Here you go genius. 

Sodomite, in other words butt ****er.

Edited June 19, 2019 by OverSword

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Because as mentioned earlier, enrollment for third parties is increasing.  I believe that trend will continue and we already see greater representation of third party at the city, county, and state level.  Did you know that Bernie Sanders is not a democrat?  He changes his status at election time in order to use the DNC's campaign fund to finance his campaign for the presidency.  The democrats allow him to do this to help attract more far leftists to vote democrat.  IMO the result of this will be many disillusioned people in the democratic party that will ultimately leave and increase numbers in the Green Party or the Socialists.  I think something similar is happening to people tired of hearing about financially responsible government from Republicans who regardless of lip service continually raise the debt ceiling and borrow more and more from the fed.  The Libertarian party will increasingly attract them.  If people will just start voting for a candidate rather than against the one they're worried about getting elected it's only a matter of time before we have huge third and fourth party numbers throughout our system.  I think this is going to happen much sooner than most believe.

The increase of third parties don’t go for long.  The American system is a two party only system.  Things fluctuate from time to time as the number of parties jump but it always settles down.  The original two parties were the Federalists and anti-Federalists.  From then on, these two morphed and merged, sometimes splintering off into multiple but in time, always consolidating into two main ones.  At the turn of the 20^th Century, a new element was added.  It was completely unAmerican and anti-Constitutional but was a novelty.  This novelty has infested our politics ever since and it is now on the verge of completely undoing over 240 years of American thought.  What is happening is a popular uprising against this infestation, causing the Federalist and anti-Federalist elements to merge into a Conservative Party to stand up against Socialism and Tyranny.  Any third-party groups will eventually be absorbed into one or the other.  This is not a stable balanced system.  The Federalist/anti-Federalist paradigm has been skewed.  Will anarchy rein or will the rule of law?  Lines have been drawn and America has her White Knight to do battle against fascism.

[+and-then]

On 6/18/2019 at 3:34 AM, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

is just a totally ineffectual farce.

Prefer to live in a place where there is order, cleanliness and the trains run on time?  A place where the government can say "there are no gay people here" or "we have no problems with this or that kind of disease"?  Freedom is messy but "order" is worse when taken to its ultimate expression in governments.

[Arbenol]

4 hours ago, OverSword said:

If my sense is right we will have at least 4 viable parties to vote for in the legislative branch earlier than a decade from now and the stranglehold of the Republican and Democrat parties will be greatly diminished. 

I can't see this happening. You had the chance in 2016. Both parties vomitted up the most odious candidates they could find, and yet just about everyone voted for one of them - even if they had to hold their nose whilst doing it.

It was a question I asked several (mostly self declared libertarians) posters here. The reason they gave for not voting for a third party was the fear that their least preferred candidate would gain an advantage.

[+OverSword]

32 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

I can't see this happening. You had the chance in 2016. Both parties vomitted up the most odious candidates they could find, and yet just about everyone voted for one of them - even if they had to hold their nose whilst doing it.

It was a question I asked several (mostly self declared libertarians) posters here. The reason they gave for not voting for a third party was the fear that their least preferred candidate would gain an advantage.

It seems in your first paragraph you're referring to the presidential campaign (executive branch) where if you read my post I was specific about the legislative branch.  As for your second paragraph, that is a problem that I've also mentioned in one of my posts here.  People must start voting for what they believe rather than against what they fear.  Fear is the stranglehold that our current paradigm is run on.  I personally do not vote against what I fear ever.  Hoping this becomes more of the norm as more and more people are less influenced by MSM's BS.

Edited June 19, 2019 by OverSword

[aztek]

well it sure sounds good but in real world it does not work that way. especially when  there was a good reason to fear what one candidate  will do. based on what she has already done.

Edited June 19, 2019 by aztek

[Black Red Devil]

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

Re-read it. Didn’t call you *****