The Tempest

[Duke Wellington]

The UK Government has unveiled its plans for a 6th generation fighter jet  today - https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/16/introducing-tempest-the-uks-next-gen-fighter/

The aim is to have a working prototype by 2025 with the platform having directed energy weapons (lasers and plasma cannons).

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[Imaginarynumber1]

[keithisco]

3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

The UK Government has unveiled its plans for a 6th generation fighter jet  today - https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/16/introducing-tempest-the-uks-next-gen-fighter/

The aim is to have a working prototype by 2025 with the platform having directed energy weapons (lasers and plasma cannons).

 

As nice as it would be, unfortunately there wont be any "directed Energy Weapons" just laser-directed weapons. Unless, of course, we do have such weapons available by the time it comes into service - now that would be cool

I like the idea of working with Leonardo and SAAB having done some development work with both in the past - much keener on the projects than the French!

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

As nice as it would be, unfortunately there wont be any "directed Energy Weapons" just laser-directed weapons. Unless, of course, we do have such weapons available by the time it comes into service - now that would be cool

I like the idea of working with Leonardo and SAAB having done some development work with both in the past - much keener on the projects than the French!

With us leaving the EU we need to dump the Eurofighter as soon as possible because shared technology compromises our defence.

Going off his recent comments then Trump appears to be trying to split the EU by portraying it as a threat. If it works France has a clear choice to make - the great US of A and its ally UK, or Germany. I hope they and some of the others come onboard with us and leave the Central European Powers to forge their own path for the future.

While the media makes Trump out to be a mentally retarded clown I think he is bringing Russia onboard to help split up the EU and prevent it undermining his attempts to make America great again. It with be USA the great, not EU the great. We need a few dozen of our new Tempest toys as soon as possible.

Edited July 16, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[The Caspian Hare]

Is this the best use of limited funds? Cost to develop a modern aircraft has become incredibly high and very had to do solo. Seems to make more sense to purchase a finished fighter.

[Gromdor]

You know, reading about the news of Chinese directing lasers into the eyes of pilots lately got me thinking.  Permanently blinding pilots is a viable tactic to do in a war.  Why waste a missile to blow up a plane when you can shine a big flashlight in their face and either make them crash or otherwise harm the pilot to the point where he can no longer fly?  It would damage optic sensors/cameras as well on drones. In that fashion, lasers would actually be a really good weapon in a war.

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

You know, reading about the news of Chinese directing lasers into the eyes of pilots lately got me thinking.  Permanently blinding pilots is a viable tactic to do in a war.  Why waste a missile to blow up a plane when you can shine a big flashlight in their face and either make them crash or otherwise harm the pilot to the point where he can no longer fly?  It would damage optic sensors/cameras as well on drones. In that fashion, lasers would actually be a really good weapon in a war.

Trying to hit an object the size of a large marble travelling at supersonic speed while likely also in motion, through a canopy darkened and mirrored visor.  

Probably only viable on or before takeoff, and if an enemy manages to get in range of that they may as well just blow up the plane on the runway or kneecap the pilot.

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

You know, reading about the news of Chinese directing lasers into the eyes of pilots lately got me thinking.  Permanently blinding pilots is a viable tactic to do in a war.  Why waste a missile to blow up a plane when you can shine a big flashlight in their face and either make them crash or otherwise harm the pilot to the point where he can no longer fly?  It would damage optic sensors/cameras as well on drones. In that fashion, lasers would actually be a really good weapon in a war.

I can see it now: all future wars will look like raves. The movie soundtracks are gonna be bouncin'.

Edited July 17, 2018 by ExpandMyMind

[The Caspian Hare]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

You know, reading about the news of Chinese directing lasers into the eyes of pilots lately got me thinking.  Permanently blinding pilots is a viable tactic to do in a war.  Why waste a missile to blow up a plane when you can shine a big flashlight in their face and either make them crash or otherwise harm the pilot to the point where he can no longer fly?  It would damage optic sensors/cameras as well on drones. In that fashion, lasers would actually be a really good weapon in a war.

It's actually prohibited by treaty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons

Not sure what they would do if countries started violating the treaty but I am sure that possibility has been studied

 

[Gromdor]

14 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Trying to hit an object the size of a large marble travelling at supersonic speed while likely also in motion, through a canopy darkened and mirrored visor.  

Probably only viable on or before takeoff, and if an enemy manages to get in range of that they may as well just blow up the plane on the runway or kneecap the pilot.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/politics/chinese-lasers-us-military-pilots-africa/index.html

This was just 3 months ago.

[Grey Area]

20 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/politics/chinese-lasers-us-military-pilots-africa/index.html

This was just 3 months ago.

All I’m saying is that the use of this kind of tactic is limited and can be easily countered once aware of the situation.

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

You know, reading about the news of Chinese directing lasers into the eyes of pilots lately got me thinking.  Permanently blinding pilots is a viable tactic to do in a war.  Why waste a missile to blow up a plane when you can shine a big flashlight in their face and either make them crash or otherwise harm the pilot to the point where he can no longer fly?  It would damage optic sensors/cameras as well on drones. In that fashion, lasers would actually be a really good weapon in a war.

Lasers used in that way during a conflict are classified as a war crime.

No doubt the proposed lasers on the Tempest are for downing drones and missiles.

[Grey Area]

9 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Lasers used in that way during a conflict are classified as a war crime.

No doubt the proposed lasers on the Tempest are for downing drones and missiles.

My understanding is that the laser must cause permanent blindness.  The protocol in question is pretty weak to be honest, and doesn’t include incidental blindness, giving the aggressor a very clear get out clause of simply stating, “blinding the pilot was an accident I was just range finding govnor!”

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, Grey Area said:

My understanding is that the laser must cause permanent blindness.  The protocol in question is pretty weak to be honest, and doesn’t include incidental blindness, giving the aggressor a very clear get out clause of simply stating, “blinding the pilot was an accident I was just range finding govnor!”

If an enemy pilot is blinded what do they do?

Assuming they eject then they could be left bobbling around in the ocean or stranded on land with no ability to get their bearings or look after their survival. Thats quite distressful. As is being blind for the rest of their lives.

Lasers powerful enough to blind people have been used on the battlefield for 30 years. Instead of painting a target for a guided bomb they could just shine it in enemy soldiers faces blinding them. Thats why its classified as a war crime.

[Duke Wellington]

This claimed model of our future fighter jet Tempest....

BAE Systems were caught testing it four years ago - 

 

[Grey Area]

5 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Lasers powerful enough to blind people have been used on the battlefield for 30 years. Instead of painting a target for a guided bomb they could just shine it in enemy soldiers faces blinding them. Thats why its classified as a war crime.

And these are the protocols that apply

Quote

Article 1Edit

It is prohibited to employ laser weapons specifically designed, as their sole combat function or as one of their combat functions, to cause permanent blindness to unenhanced vision, that is to the naked eye or to the eye with corrective eyesight devices. The High Contracting Parties shall not transfer such weapons to any State or non-State entity.

Article 2Edit

In the employment of laser systems, the High Contracting Parties shall take all feasible precautions to avoid the incidence of permanent blindness to unenhanced vision. Such precautions shall include training of their armed forces and other practical measures.

Article 3Edit

Blinding as an incidental or collateral effect of the legitimate military employment of laser systems, including laser systems used against optical equipment, is not covered by the prohibition of this Protocol.

Article 4Edit

For the purpose of this protocol "permanent blindness" means irreversible and uncorrectable loss of vision which is seriously disabling with no prospect of recovery. Serious disability is equivalent to visual acuity of less than 20/200 Snellen measured using both eyes.

Source: Protocol on blinding laser weapons

Read it, it doesn’t apply to lasers that do not inflict permanent blindness and it doesn’t apply if the intent of the user wasn’t to cause permanent blindness.

[stevewinn]

16 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

This claimed model of our future fighter jet Tempest....

BAE Systems were caught testing it four years ago - 

 

Wasn't this the model used for 'Replica' - the project or technology merged into the F35. When we joined. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Replica

[Duke Wellington]

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Wasn't this the model used for 'Replica' - the project or technology merged into the F35. When we joined. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Replica

As far as I`m aware this is after the F35 and they were moving it to their radar terminal at Warton to test the stealth characteristics of the shape.

[stevewinn]

5 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

As far as I`m aware this is after the F35 and they were moving it to their radar terminal at Warton to test the stealth characteristics of the shape.

I'm sure its the 'old' being moved, it hung upside down for years. (do they look the same?) 

Picture from 4 years ago. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/elferrito/13227434543

[Duke Wellington]

18 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I'm sure its the 'old' being moved, it hung upside down for years. (do they look the same?) 

Picture from 4 years ago. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/elferrito/13227434543

Thats the pillar they stick them on then beam radar waves at to see what reflects back.

Its not a display. They make a model then test it on it to determine its stealth characteristics.

Edited July 19, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[stevewinn]

5 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thats the pillar they stick them on then beam radar waves at to see what reflects back.

Its not a display. They make a model then test it on it to determine its stealth characteristics.

Were talking about the same thing here. I thought you was saying it was a new model based on the Tempest. My point was its the same old model been around sometime stuck on that pole, originally used in the replica programme. 

[Unusual Tournament]

6 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thats the pillar they stick them on then beam radar waves at to see what reflects back.

Its not a display. They make a model then test it on it to determine its stealth characteristics.

I think when they say tested they mean it’s originally computer software generated and tested. 

[Duke Wellington]

18 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Were talking about the same thing here. I thought you was saying it was a new model based on the Tempest. My point was its the same old model been around sometime stuck on that pole, originally used in the replica programme. 

Are we confusing each other?

[Unusual Tournament]

On 7/18/2018 at 1:19 AM, The Caspian Hare said:

Is this the best use of limited funds? Cost to develop a modern aircraft has become incredibly high and very had to do solo. Seems to make more sense to purchase a finished fighter.

ain't that the truth. it cost the U.S. and partners 50 billion to develop the F-35 program. no european country can afford that. but high price aside having a fighter jet that is controlled and upgradeable without approval from the U.S. is a big incentive for Europe. don't know if its realistic for any one country like Britain or France to go it alone but certainly some type cooperation and sharing of tech and codes to give the member countries independence in the fighter program is attractive if the costs are shared. 

[Duke Wellington]

12 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

ain't that the truth. it cost the U.S. and partners 50 billion to develop the F-35 program. no european country can afford that. but high price aside having a fighter jet that is controlled and upgradeable without approval from the U.S. is a big incentive for Europe. don't know if its realistic for any one country like Britain or France to go it alone but certainly some type cooperation and sharing of tech and codes to give the member countries independence in the fighter program is attractive if the costs are shared. 

Outside the EU then Britain needs its own independent fighter jet. Of course we hope another large European conflict never arises but it might do so we have to be prepared. Heck, lets call it independence not tempest.

Anyway the $50 billion is not excessive if the jet lasts 2-3 decades. We will be spending that on renewing our nuclear deterrent too. Our eco is like $2.6 trillion a year so we can afford it. It wont come close to breaking the bank.