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and then

Is it time for Gaza to be returned to Israel?

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and then

I recently read a blogger who says that the IDF has set a deadline of this Friday for the Hamas to stop the kite arson that has plagued Israel.  The forces are being pulled together for a major incursion into Gaza if it continues.  If Gaza's food, water, and power have to be guaranteed by Israel anyway, why not just invade and put the whole venture back into Israel's authority?  Hamas can be crushed at the same time.

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seanjo
Posted (edited)

While I kind of agree, it would be a bad move on Israel's part, it would incur sanctions and give the useful idiots even more material to accuse Israel of wrongdoing (while ignoring the wrongdoing of HAMAS etc.).

 

Anyway, Gaza and the circumstances surrounding its return (2005-2008) are a good tool to beat the useful idiots 'arguments' with.

Edited by seanjo
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seanjo

It's worth pointing out that to the Islamist Arabs and Iranians this conflict is not about a little bit of Land on the West Bank, it is a religious conflict and it is about Jerusalem and removing any religion other than Islam from that region. Which of course means the destruction of Israel and all of its people.

 

It is also worth pointing out that Islam is the invader here, they took that land from the Byzantine Empire, the last remnants of the Roman empire, that had taken that land from the Judeans/Israelites some 800 years before. Islam has been the aggressor since it's inception when Mohammed had his Joseph Smith like vision.

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)

I think Israel would be MAD to try and occupy Gaza. What would Israel do with the million-odd palestinian Arabs in the Gaza strip ? Egypt was given the option of taking it, and refused rapidly. It is a nest of vipers. 

Anyway, why would Israel WANT the Gaza strip ? What benefits would it give ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Essan
1 hour ago, seanjo said:

Do you approve of all the Islamic states?

No. 

Did you approve of Aparteid South Africa? 

Would you approve of the UK declaring that only ethnic Anglo-Saxons have a right to self-determination in the UK?   
 

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The Caspian Hare

Let them fight their own territorial dispute. I don't care what flag flies over Gaza or Jerusalem for that matter. I want us out of that whole mess. We have our own problems.

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Mr.United_Nations

Every war affects you somehow whether involved in it or not. 

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Piney
16 minutes ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Let them fight their own territorial dispute. I don't care what flag flies over Gaza or Jerusalem for that matter. I want us out of that whole mess. We have our own problems.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

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Mr.United_Nations
3 hours ago, seanjo said:

It's worth pointing out that to the Islamist Arabs and Iranians this conflict is not about a little bit of Land on the West Bank, it is a religious conflict and it is about Jerusalem and removing any religion other than Islam from that region. Which of course means the destruction of Israel and all of its people.

 

It is also worth pointing out that Islam is the invader here, they took that land from the Byzantine Empire, the last remnants of the Roman empire, that had taken that land from the Judeans/Israelites some 800 years before. Islam has been the aggressor since it's inception when Mohammed had his Joseph Smith like vision.

Ah the fake Romans

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The Caspian Hare
4 minutes ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Every war affects you somehow whether involved in it or not. 

This one affects us by dragging us directly into the conflicts of a volatile region and creating enemies all over the world. Israel seems to be just fine with us sharing the heat for their actions, through their powerful political lobby they have cleverly convinced the American public that their interests are our interests.

They manipulate our politicians, their behavior is an eyesore and I'm sick of them. You want that territory? Then you fight for it. Leave us out. Let's see how good the mighty ISraeli armed forces are without 3.87 billion in a military aid every year.

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Piney
Just now, The Caspian Hare said:

They manipulate our politicians, their behavior is an eyesore and I'm sick of them. You want that territory? Then you fight for it. Leave us out. Let's see how good the mighty ISraeli armed forces are without 3.87 billion in a military aid every year.

I was kicked out of Israel when I was Red Cross. A Isreali soldier was comparing his folks to us Indians. My response was "I can see you from a Indian perspective. Your land thieves". 

 Indians are always being accused of anti-Semitism. No, we're sick of being crapped on while they are coddled. 

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The Caspian Hare
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I was kicked out of Israel when I was Red Cross. A Isreali soldier was comparing his folks to us Indians. My response was "I can see you from a Indian perspective. Your land thieves". 

 Indians are always being accused of anti-Semitism. No, we're sick of being crapped on while they are coddled. 

This is what I'm talking about. They're obnoxious and thanks to all the aid that they get they are arrogant and assured that they are unbeatable.

I used to take the standard conservative line of supporting Israel until I started reading their history.

Funny because I strongly criticize Islam as a religion too, but the fact remains that it wouldn't be nearly the problem it is for us if the US hadn't taken sides in this distant conflict.

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The Caspian Hare
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

@The Caspian Hare  All Quakers are now kicked out of Israel because too many of us pointed out the atrocities.

https://www.afsc.org/story/afsc-among-human-rights-orgs-barred-israel

Wow.

I wish we could kick AIPAC and the rest of the Israel lobby out of the country like that. <_<

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Piney
2 minutes ago, The Caspian Hare said:

This is what I'm talking about. They're obnoxious and thanks to all the aid that they get they are arrogant and assured that they are unbeatable.

I used to take the standard conservative line of supporting Israel until I started reading their history.

Funny because I strongly criticize Islam as a religion too, but the fact remains that it wouldn't be nearly the problem it is for us if the US hadn't taken sides in this distant conflict.

I had family in the British military who remembered when they were terrorists and killed British soldiers.

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The Caspian Hare

 

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seanjo
2 hours ago, Essan said:

No. 

Did you approve of Aparteid South Africa? 

Would you approve of the UK declaring that only ethnic Anglo-Saxons have a right to self-determination in the UK?   
 

Nope, but I approve of a wholly Jewish State, the only one in the World with a population of around 8 million.

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

This one affects us by dragging us directly into the conflicts of a volatile region and creating enemies all over the world. Israel seems to be just fine with us sharing the heat for their actions, through their powerful political lobby they have cleverly convinced the American public that their interests are our interests.

They manipulate our politicians, their behavior is an eyesore and I'm sick of them. You want that territory? Then you fight for it. Leave us out. Let's see how good the mighty ISraeli armed forces are without 3.87 billion in a military aid every year.

I think that is a good point. However, would you also accept the cancelling of the $2 billion in military aid to Egypt at the same time ? And perhaps the (relatively) modest $425 million to Jordan,  and boycot the sale of weapons to all unstable non-democratic regimes in the region ? A classic example was the $60+ billion weapons sale to Saudi Arabia.

Of course, there would be drawbacks. The "military aide" to Israel (and the other countries in the region) can ONLY be spent on US weapons, so this is actually a $3.87 billion annual taxpayers subsidy to the US arms industry. Without this, there would surely be many job losses within the USA. 

In addition, deprived of "free" US weapons, Israel would revitalise its own armaments industry, as they did back in the 70's. One major incentive for the US to give Israel weapons credits in the first place was to cripple the development of its domestic "lavi" jet fighter program, which would have badly impacted on international sales of the F15 (and later F16) jet fighters. 

So there would be a significant economic shock to the US economy, with significant contraction in the armaments industry, and no doubt a large amounts of layoffs. Israel, on the other hand, would be free of its US shackles, and free to produce superior and more appropriate weapons systems to defend itself with. So many US systems where purchased just to keep the US happy, as producing domestic armaments would have been a major political snub. Many of the systems that WHERE purchased had to be heavily modified in order to be useable on the battlefield. (the M2 Bradley springs to mind, along with the F15 jet, the M16 rifle, and even the F35 Lightening II). 

So in summary; I'd agree @The Caspian Hare. The US should finally wind down military "aide" to Israel, and force its domestic weapons manufacturers to stand on their own feet. This would put about $4 billion per year back into the pockets of the American taxpayers. (with the exception of those who had lost their jobs, of course). 

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Black Red Devil
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I think that is a good point. However, would you also accept the cancelling of the $2 billion in military aid to Egypt at the same time ? And perhaps the (relatively) modest $425 million to Jordan,  and boycot the sale of weapons to all unstable non-democratic regimes in the region ? A classic example was the $60+ billion weapons sale to Saudi Arabia.

Of course, there would be drawbacks. The "military aide" to Israel (and the other countries in the region) can ONLY be spent on US weapons, so this is actually a $3.87 billion annual taxpayers subsidy to the US arms industry. Without this, there would surely be many job losses within the USA. 

In addition, deprived of "free" US weapons, Israel would revitalise its own armaments industry, as they did back in the 70's. One major incentive for the US to give Israel weapons credits in the first place was to cripple the development of its domestic "lavi" jet fighter program, which would have badly impacted on international sales of the F15 (and later F16) jet fighters. 

So there would be a significant economic shock to the US economy, with significant contraction in the armaments industry, and no doubt a large amounts of layoffs. Israel, on the other hand, would be free of its US shackles, and free to produce superior and more appropriate weapons systems to defend itself with. So many US systems where purchased just to keep the US happy, as producing domestic armaments would have been a major political snub. Many of the systems that WHERE purchased had to be heavily modified in order to be useable on the battlefield. (the M2 Bradley springs to mind, along with the F15 jet, the M16 rifle, and even the F35 Lightening II). 

So in summary; I'd agree @The Caspian Hare. The US should finally wind down military "aide" to Israel, and force its domestic weapons manufacturers to stand on their own feet. This would put about $4 billion per year back into the pockets of the American taxpayers. (with the exception of those who had lost their jobs, of course). 

I actually thought Trump was going to dump them when during the Presidential campaign he stated he had enough money and didn't need Jewish support. But obviously the war hawk neocons in Congress convinced him otherwise.  Otherwise how else were they going to profit from armament sales which reached record profits in the last 4 years. All these proxi wars fought in neighboring and belligerent countries surrounding Israel seem to be working perfectly towards two main goals, sell more weapons and take the focus away from the "Palestinian issue". 

By destabilising the region, Israel's enemies are becoming weaker while their strength increases. Together with the backup support they receive from the US in the UN by vetoing any resolution suggesting actions or sanctions against them for their discriminatory conduct towards Palestinians, I agree with you, Israel is now in a position where they don't need US dollars in economic and military aid anymore. But without US political support, they'd get crushed internationally. I doubt this will happen for one reason.  The Russian/Iran alliance.  The US needs Israel (and SA) to balance the power in the region but if Israel keeps pushing issues with Iran and flexing it's muscles with the Palestinians, this alliance may be put under pressure.  As it stands Trump is starting to alienate many of US allies with his silly rhetoric on NATO, Tariffs and stipulated pacts he's been reviewing and dumping on.  Supporting Israel's bullying conduct may just be the last straw for the Trump Administration, especially if Israel would invade Gaza or attack Iran.  

Edited by Black Red Devil

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and then
22 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I think Israel would be MAD to try and occupy Gaza. What would Israel do with the million-odd palestinian Arabs in the Gaza strip ? Egypt was given the option of taking it, and refused rapidly. It is a nest of vipers. 

Anyway, why would Israel WANT the Gaza strip ? What benefits would it give ? 

They could completely neutralize the Hamas and assert control over the militant elements.  Yes, it would be costly but so is the regular mowing of the grass and dealing with the interminable rocket launches.  It would also b give the finger to a very deserving BDS and the world community that never gives them a fair hearing, no matter what they try.  It's about time to try something more bold than simpering and begging to be "understood"!

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and then
22 hours ago, Essan said:

There are at least 57 countries that proudly affirm their status as Muslim nations.   Are you against them, as well?  I'm not.  I think their people have a perfect right to decide if that character matches their desire for their nation.  Why should Jews be denied the same right?

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and then
20 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Let them fight their own territorial dispute. I don't care what flag flies over Gaza or Jerusalem for that matter. I want us out of that whole mess. We have our own problems.

That makes for a good soundbite but the reality is that without us as an ally they might quickly be pushed to the wall and forced to defend themselves in a VERY profound way.  I think this will happen at some point and when it does, there will be some serious regrets about the U.S. choice to abandon them.  Everyone is going to pay a price and, frankly, I think that's only fair.  NO group of people should be treated as they have historically been treated.  

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Essan
7 minutes ago, and then said:

There are at least 57 countries that proudly affirm their status as Muslim nations.   Are you against them, as well?  I'm not.  I think their people have a perfect right to decide if that character matches their desire for their nation.  Why should Jews be denied the same right?

Because I don't agree with apartheid. 

And no, I do not approve of any other nation where members of any religion or ethnic group are treated preferentially to others, either.   All men are equal.

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