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Is it time for Gaza to be returned to Israel?


and-then

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56 minutes ago, Essan said:

That's called ethnic cleansing ;) 

Indeed Essan.. indeed. 

How many Jews are there in Libya, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen ? There used to be lots. Now there are hardly any. What happened ? 

Kuwait is Judenfrie , as is Saudi Arabia and Libya.  Iraq has about 100, Saudi , Qatar a few dozen; the list goes on.

When was the last time you saw a newspaper headline, or heard a TV newscaster, talking about Saudi Apartheid or Kuwaiti ethnic cleansing ? 

Hitler would have been proud. 

 

Edited by RoofGardener
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8 hours ago, and then said:

That makes for a good soundbite but the reality is that without us as an ally they might quickly be pushed to the wall and forced to defend themselves in a VERY profound way.  I think this will happen at some point and when it does, there will be some serious regrets about the U.S. choice to abandon them.  Everyone is going to pay a price and, frankly, I think that's only fair.  NO group of people should be treated as they have historically been treated.  

But why are they our responsibility? :unsure: Lots of people of the world have sad histories and there's nothing special about them. We have already given them more than any country has a right to ask for. I want what is best for America first and foremost. Rest of the world needs to get by as best it can.

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8 hours ago, and then said:

Try arguing that to the U.S. defense contractors that net 75% of every one of those aid dollars.  And, BTW, Israel's annual defense budget exceeds 19 billion USD.  

Then this is essentially the same as just giving them weapons.

Again, why are they our responsibility? Why this one country is allowed to have so much influence over our foreign policy, sometimes to our detriment? :hmm:

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6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Indeed Essan.. indeed. 

How many Jews are there in Libya, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen ? There used to be lots. Now there are hardly any. What happened ? 

Kuwait is Judenfrie , as is Saudi Arabia and Libya.  Iraq has about 100, Saudi , Qatar a few dozen; the list goes on.

When was the last time you saw a newspaper headline, or heard a TV newscaster, talking about Saudi Apartheid or Kuwaiti ethnic cleansing ? 

Hitler would have been proud. 

 

They do it so it''s okay for us to do it?  Even if most say it's wrong?  :unsure2:

Anyway, I will add you to the list of those who will not object to England becoming a white Anglo-Saxon homeland where all other ethnicities are deemed second class citizens.

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And let's make it clear: if there is one country I hate more than Israel it is Saudi Arabia.   But unlike some,  I don't think 2 wrongs make a right. 

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3 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Then this is essentially the same as just giving them weapons.

Again, why are they our responsibility? Why this one country is allowed to have so much influence over our foreign policy, sometimes to our detriment? :hmm:

A majority of Americans, though not as large a number as formerly, still trust and support Israel.  They are our allies in a war against Islamic extremists.  You are free to believe that all of our problems with these Muslim nations begin with our support of Israel in their conflict with the Palestinians but the record does not prove this.  That conflict is but an excuse for the hatred fundamentalist Islamists have for any entity outside the grasp and control of Islam.

On a more practical note, an Israel alone and without political cover in the world would quickly be driven to the wall.  Who else would support them?  India, perhaps.  No practical help there.  Supporting Israel benefits the U.S. by keeping the M.E. from literally exploding in a nuclear fireball someday.  Can you think of any other nation that would feel as justified in using those weapons if they felt they were about to be destroyed?  I can't.  Take heart!  Your desire will come true someday.  Then we'll be able to see which of us was correct in our assumptions :( 

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32 minutes ago, Essan said:

And let's make it clear: if there is one country I hate more than Israel it is Saudi Arabia.   But unlike some,  I don't think 2 wrongs make a right. 

I think that is a good point Essan; two wrongs don't make a right. 

However, they CAN make for perceptual distortions. How often have you posted about Saudi Arabia's racist regime in this form, compared to posts about Israel ? :)  

Edited by RoofGardener
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14 minutes ago, and then said:

A majority of Americans, though not as large a number as formerly, still trust and support Israel.  They are our allies in a war against Islamic extremists.  You are free to believe that all of our problems with these Muslim nations begin with our support of Israel in their conflict with the Palestinians but the record does not prove this.  That conflict is but an excuse for the hatred fundamentalist Islamists have for any entity outside the grasp and control of Islam.

On a more practical note, an Israel alone and without political cover in the world would quickly be driven to the wall.  Who else would support them?  India, perhaps.  No practical help there.  Supporting Israel benefits the U.S. by keeping the M.E. from literally exploding in a nuclear fireball someday.  Can you think of any other nation that would feel as justified in using those weapons if they felt they were about to be destroyed?  I can't.  Take heart!  Your desire will come true someday.  Then we'll be able to see which of us was correct in our assumptions :( 

I tell you that Israel is not our ally. Through their powerful political lobby they have managed to convince the right people that their enemies are our enemies. But we are disposable to them, just ask the crew of the USS Liberty. 

You know how critical of Islam I am, I am the last person in the world to make excuses for it. But Islam by itself is an abstraction, and people don't fight or die over abstractions alone. To motivate people to die takes something visible and immediate. That something is our one-sided foreign policy in support of Israel which creates ill will for us across the whole Islamic world. Islam was on the decline before modern Israel was created. Creating Israel where it is, a religiously sensitive region, and the violent nature of its creation, sparked a fire that is still burning. You know that migrant crisis in Europe? Local populations fearful of being dominated by new outsiders? That's what happened the the Arabs in Palestine in the 1940's. And the things they do to Palestinians they would surely  do to you or I. We would be throwing rocks and eating their tear gas if we had something they wanted and they could get away with it.

Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. Built with nuclear material that was almost certainly stolen from us (the NUMEC site, Apollo Pennsylvania, 1960's.) Treacherous behavior towards their most important benefactor. When we tell other countries that they can't have nuclear weapons, the first thing they do is point to Israel and say "why is it okay for your friends but nobody else?" <_<

And not only do we have to tolerate nuclear Israel but we are expected to go to war against Israel's enemy Iran in order to stop them from getting the same weapons that Israel has. It's not only enough that conventionally they outclass every one of their neighbors' armies and we turn a blind eye to their nuclear arsenal, but we are obligated to get involved in yet another major conflict just to prevent the possibility of another country from achieving military parity. Bibi Netanyahu (who once said 9/11 was good for Israel because it swung Americans to their side, who is mired in multiple corruption scandals, who has been urging us to attack IRan over its nuclear program since the 90's) wants us to risk a bloodbath just so Israelis can sleep safely.

Israel's behavior is psychopathic. I am utterly out of sympathy for them.

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The arguments in this post are ridiculous, people are here justifying Israels behaviour based upon the treatment of Jews in the Arab nations, no one has forcefully taken their homes? no one has bombed their children? Isreal claims they are the only democracy in the region so how can any of you justify their behaviour based upon what the arabs are doing?

leading by example is what Israel should be doing, a region that could be a symbol for global religious unity is being torn apart by both sides.

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2 hours ago, .AKUMA. said:

The arguments in this post are ridiculous, people are here justifying Israels behaviour based upon the treatment of Jews in the Arab nations, no one has forcefully taken their homes? no one has bombed their children? Isreal claims they are the only democracy in the region so how can any of you justify their behaviour based upon what the arabs are doing?

leading by example is what Israel should be doing, a region that could be a symbol for global religious unity is being torn apart by both sides.

As they led when they surrendered Gaza?  When they placed little or no restrictions on employing Gazans?  Leaving business infrastructure in place for Gazans to use to earn from?  All they've ever gotten in return is rockets.  Trump is poised to make the region an offer they can't easily resist.  Let's just wait and see how the dear wee Palestinians react to it, eh?

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5 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

I am utterly out of sympathy for them.

Duly noted.

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It doesn't really make sense for the Gaza strip not to be part of Israel. It originally was Israel. It sits obliquely between the Sea, and Israel out of place, and almost makes Israel look sanwhiched in. Kind of like an intrusion.

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8 hours ago, and then said:

Duly noted.

Why are you so concerned with this other country that exercises so much control over our affairs to our detriment? Why are you so unconcerned with the way they drag us into their conflicts?

You know what happens to that military technology we sell/give to them? They trade it to the Chinese. You know who ultimately gets blamed for Israel's actions? We do.  And if that's not enough we're even expected to even go to war with Iran on their behalf in order to ensure Israeli military supremacy. Why is it incumbent on us to sacrifice so much on their behalf?

I used to take the standard conservative position of supporting Israel until I read their history and learned about how much influence their lobby has over our government. And as soon as you complain about this influence you get called anti-semitic .

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53 minutes ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Why are you so concerned with this other country that exercises so much control over our affairs to our detriment? Why are you so unconcerned with the way they drag us into their conflicts?

You know what happens to that military technology we sell/give to them? They trade it to the Chinese. You know who ultimately gets blamed for Israel's actions? We do.  And if that's not enough we're even expected to even go to war with Iran on their behalf in order to ensure Israeli military supremacy. Why is it incumbent on us to sacrifice so much on their behalf?

I used to take the standard conservative position of supporting Israel until I read their history and learned about how much influence their lobby has over our government. And as soon as you complain about this influence you get called anti-semitic .


Religion, theology, zionism. Thats why. No rational argument can be used to 'waver' their support, it is quite literally unconditional (which goes for a considerable number of Americans, including but not limited to Senate members). It seems to be one of the main reasons groups like AIPAC are so succesful. And like you mentioned, those that dont drink the zionist koolaid, and stand critical against such foreign and unconstitutional control / influence, are immediately branded 'anti semetical'. Publicly outcast.

Its a pretty sweet set up, for the Israeli Zionist state that is.

Edited by Phaeton80
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9 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:


Religion, theology, zionism. Thats why. No rational argument can be used to 'waver' their support, it is quite literally unconditional (which goes for a considerable number of Americans, including but not limited to Senate members). It seems to be one of the main reasons groups like AIPAC are so succesful. And like you mentioned, those that dont drink the zionist koolaid, and stand critical against such foreign and unconstitutional control / influence, are immediately branded 'anti semetical'. Publicly outcast.

Its a pretty sweet set up, for the Israeli Zionist state that is.

And have you ever wondered WHY Israeli solidarity groups are so successful ? Is it possible because people can see that Israel is an oasis of liberal democracy in a sea of unstable fascist theological monarchies, and so people tend to sympathise with it on cultural and moral grounds ? :D 

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On 7/19/2018 at 3:07 AM, Essan said:

Would you approve of the UK declaring that only ethnic Anglo-Saxons have a right to self-determination in the UK?  

Hold on, what about the Normans?  Well maybe, as long as the Scots get Scotland and the Orcs get Orkney.  Womp Womp Norwegians I mean.   And for god sake, give Shetland back to the Shets.  Those poor little ponies without self determination,  it breaks my heart.  Sadly there is no longer a Pharaoh  to claim the Faroes with Elvor Palsdotter as his queen.  Don't even get me started on Man.    But yeah, all men are equal and I am just being a jerk at midnight in Oregon.

 

 

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On 7/19/2018 at 11:41 PM, and then said:

That makes for a good soundbite but the reality is that without us as an ally they might quickly be pushed to the wall and forced to defend themselves in a VERY profound way.  I think this will happen at some point and when it does, there will be some serious regrets about the U.S. choice to abandon them.

This might be said of NATO as well.  Why should we defend Montenegro or Israel?  Our word in promises and treaties maybe?

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10 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

This might be said of NATO as well.  Why should we defend Montenegro or Israel?  Our word in promises and treaties maybe?

I have stated on several occasions the need for our loyalty to Israel.  They have no other allies that could help them and their enemies are devout and counted in their tens of millions.  They have an answer to being overrun.  It won't be a good thing for this world but if we allow them to be pressed to that point then we will deserve what happens to us all.  The very fact that almost no one accepts this possibility should be an eye-opener...

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10 hours ago, and then said:

I have stated on several occasions the need for our loyalty to Israel.  They have no other allies that could help them and their enemies are devout and counted in their tens of millions.  They have an answer to being overrun.  It won't be a good thing for this world but if we allow them to be pressed to that point then we will deserve what happens to us all.  The very fact that almost no one accepts this possibility should be an eye-opener...

I assume you are referring to the nuclear option.  Well, if a country gets pressed to the edge of survival, I suppose it would be a logical consideration, and is definitely a possibility.

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On 7/19/2018 at 8:53 AM, seanjo said:

Nope, but I approve of a wholly Jewish State, the only one in the World with a population of around 8 million.

Theocracy is just another word for fascism.  What is so scary about one vote, one person, with separation of church and state.  You don't need religion to hook up a water, sewer. and give a child a basic education.  I think it should go back to being one nation, with everyone having the same rights. Your religion is your problem and irrelevant to citizenship.    Those who ended up losing their homes in this mess should be compensated for the lost of property.  Apartheid never works, you're just putting people in a situation of desperation and that never ends well.  

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2 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Theocracy is just another word for fascism.  What is so scary about one vote, one person, with separation of church and state.  You don't need religion to hook up a water, sewer. and give a child a basic education.  I think it should go back to being one nation, with everyone having the same rights. Your religion is your problem and irrelevant to citizenship.    Those who ended up losing their homes in this mess should be compensated for the lost of property.  Apartheid never works, you're just putting people in a situation of desperation and that never ends well.  

But what happens when a certain segment of the population decides to vote to turn the democratic state with separation of church and state into a theocracy.  While apartheid isnt the answer neither is essentially committing democratic suicide by allowing a mass of people that dont want a democracy to vote it away.

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How about they give it a try, Israel isn't a Democracy, it is a Theocracy. They created this problem now they got to fix it, without any more cash from the States as far as I am concerned. 

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21 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Theocracy is just another word for fascism.  What is so scary about one vote, one person, with separation of church and state.  You don't need religion to hook up a water, sewer. and give a child a basic education.  I think it should go back to being one nation, with everyone having the same rights. Your religion is your problem and irrelevant to citizenship.    Those who ended up losing their homes in this mess should be compensated for the lost of property.  Apartheid never works, you're just putting people in a situation of desperation and that never ends well.  

Have I mentioned (lately) that Israel is a SECULAR State?  The problem really isn't Judaism.  The problem for the Palestinian from childhood is the presence of JEWS who are breathing near them.

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11 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Israel isn't a Democracy, it is a Theocracy

Do you actually read anything about this issue or just go on parrot mode?  Educate yourself and stop looking dense.

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On 7/21/2018 at 5:23 AM, The Caspian Hare said:

as you complain about this influence you get called anti-semitic .

Not by ME, you don't.  I'm fully capable of discerning between Jew haters and people who simply disagree politically for reasons of their own perceptions - as you do.  It isn't my job to defend any excesses of the Jewish people in Israel and YES there are many.  I'm just talking about a solution that might result in something less than a global nuclear conflict.  If I had to give a single reason for our support for them it would be THAT.  Is it worth our while to try to find a solution?  There are about 8 million people in Israel.  NYC had 8.5 million last year.  WHO has Israel invaded, (in a DEFENSIVE WAR) conquered and seized land from since 1973?  45 years living in relative peace and invading no one is a pretty good record, I think.  The Palis will NEVER regain all the land.  The Jews will NEVER remove the Palestinians.  A compromise has been sought for decades.  Neither side seems interested but at least Israelis seem to want to TRY.  

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