Is it time for Gaza to be returned to Israel?

[RoofGardener]

11 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

For a time. And then were supplanted, as happens. How many generations does it take for a new group to become natives? 

Interesting question. Has anyone ever asked the Native American's that question ? 

[+and-then]

9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Interesting question. Has anyone ever asked the Native American's that question ? 

He seems to overlook or simply deny the reality that though they were forcibly removed from that land, it wasn't by Arabs/Palestinians, it was a military superpower that did it.  There's also the little event that was predicted in their Torah about the dispersion being healed and Jews coming back into the land.  Pretty much against all odds.  For all the complaining I hear about the U.S. being a Patsy for Israel, I'd just point out that NO ONE bleeds for Israel except Israelis.  They don't ask for troops...never have...

According to scripture, even when all their friends and allies desert them they will still come out victorious against an overwhelming coalition of forces that attack them in Israel.  It should be interesting to see the comments around here and in other fora when this becomes a reality

[RoofGardener]

2 minutes ago, and then said:

He seems to overlook or simply deny the reality that though they were forcibly removed from that land, it wasn't by Arabs/Palestinians, it was a military superpower that did it.  There's also the little event that was predicted in their Torah about the dispersion being healed and Jews coming back into the land.  Pretty much against all odds.  For all the complaining I hear about the U.S. being a Patsy for Israel, I'd just point out that NO ONE bleeds for Israel except Israelis.  They don't ask for troops...never have...

According to scripture, even when all their friends and allies desert them they will still come out victorious against an overwhelming coalition of forces that attack them in Israel.  It should be interesting to see the comments around here and in other fora when this becomes a reality

Umm.. hasn't that bit already happened ? The 1948 Arab invasion was an ".. overwhelming coalition of forces.. that attack(ed) them in Israel...". 

What happens AFTERWARDS, in that prophesy ? 

Edited July 27, 2018 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:26 PM, Opus Magnus said:

Though, whatever Israel does that is wrong it will eventually have to atone for.

Those who are so blinded with hate against this country don't ever touch that little fact about their existence.  If there has ever been a group of people on the planet that have consistently paid for their wrongdoing, it's Israel.

[+and-then]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. hasn't that bit already happened ? The 1948 Arab invasion was an ".. overwhelming coalition of forces.. that attack(ed) them in Israel...". 

What happens AFTERWARDS, in that prophesy ? 

I'm speaking of Ezekiel - chapters 38/39.  I think you are referring to Psalm 83.  That conflict came about because their enemies wanted to destroy them so that "the name of Israel" would be forgotten.  Ezekiel speaks of a coalition, led by Gog of Magog and including Turks, Sudanese, Iranians, Libyans and others who come against Israel to "take a spoil".  To gain great wealth from Israel.  That hasn't occurred, yet.  Considering the current lineup of enemies in the region, I'd say it's almost showtime.  I don't recall any time in my life when Russia, Iran, and Turkey were allied and seeking common goals in the region.  Some like to posit that Russia and Israel are allied but Putin is an opportunist first and foremost.  I think that what comes next in the region is a peace deal brokered by Trump, S.A., and a group of Arab Gulf States.  It will basically be imposed on the PA and Hamas.  It will have a timed implementation over 7 years and it will be broken at the midpoint of that span.  

If you accept that the early wars of statehood are the same as what is called for by Asaph in Psalm 83 then "what came next" was the obliteration and humiliation of those peoples that wanted the name of Israel to be "remembered no more".  

[Rlyeh]

21 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I don't think the comparison with "Native American's" holds true. 

the Native Americans encountered a previously unknown culture - the Europeans - that came from the other side of the world, and had never previously existed (in any numbers) in continental America. The Jews of Palestine, however, had always been present, and where the original dominant indigenous culture of the region. They where "the natives". 

Didn't the Jews eradicate the natives because God told them to do it?

[Opus Magnus]

These are the verses of the Gospel, I was talking about earlier, that have waged wars A.D. over Israel.

Luke 21:20

20But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. 21Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. 22For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Return of the Son of Man

(Matthew 24:26-31; Mark 13:24-27)

 

25And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; 26men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

The lesson of the Fig Tree

(Matthew 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31)

 

29And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees: 30when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh. 31Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh. 32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. 33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Opus Magnus]

Also Matthew 24:14

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

[RoofGardener]

22 hours ago, and then said:

I'm speaking of Ezekiel - chapters 38/39.  I think you are referring to Psalm 83.  That conflict came about because their enemies wanted to destroy them so that "the name of Israel" would be forgotten.  Ezekiel speaks of a coalition, led by Gog of Magog and including Turks, Sudanese, Iranians, Libyans and others who come against Israel to "take a spoil".  To gain great wealth from Israel.  That hasn't occurred, yet.  Considering the current lineup of enemies in the region, I'd say it's almost showtime.  I don't recall any time in my life when Russia, Iran, and Turkey were allied and seeking common goals in the region.  Some like to posit that Russia and Israel are allied but Putin is an opportunist first and foremost.  I think that what comes next in the region is a peace deal brokered by Trump, S.A., and a group of Arab Gulf States.  It will basically be imposed on the PA and Hamas.  It will have a timed implementation over 7 years and it will be broken at the midpoint of that span.  

If you accept that the early wars of statehood are the same as what is called for by Asaph in Psalm 83 then "what came next" was the obliteration and humiliation of those peoples that wanted the name of Israel to be "remembered no more".  

Meh.. I still don't see it. Firstly, how can you be sure that the Ezekiel prophesy WASN'T the 1948 war, rather than Psalm 83 ? In addition, the bit about "remembered no more" sounds more like the Roman's, and their punative re-naming of Judea into Palestinia ?  

Secondly.... Russia, Iran and Turkey aren't allied, and the only 'common goal' they have in the area relates to Syria, not Israel. 

As for the imposed peace deal; on past record (the Oslo accords), the PLO won't wait until the "midpoint of the span" to break the treaty: they'll do it right at the start.  

And what would SA's motive be for arranging peace between the Palestinian's and the Israeli's ? 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

And what would SA's motive be for arranging peace between the Palestinian's and the Israeli's ? 

Having the IDF take out the Iranian trash for them.

[RoofGardener]

8 hours ago, and then said:

Having the IDF take out the Iranian trash for them.

Hmm.. perhaps. But set against that would be the Public Relations mountain of explaining to their Muslim neighbours why they have betrayed the Palestinians, and colluded with the hated Jews. I really can't see it happening ? 

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. perhaps. But set against that would be the Public Relations mountain of explaining to their Muslim neighbours why they have betrayed the Palestinians, and colluded with the hated Jews. I really can't see it happening ? 

You need to clean your glasses, then    It is coming.

[Black Red Devil]

On 7/27/2018 at 5:32 PM, and then said:

According to scripture, even when all their friends and allies desert them they will still come out victorious against an overwhelming coalition of forces that attack them in Israel.  It should be interesting to see the comments around here and in other fora when this becomes a reality

And according to the Quran Islam will prevail over all other religions and dominate the world. All three Abrahamic religions have their own prophecies of ultimate fulfilment for its followers, otherwise they wouldn't have any followers if their predictions only offered eternal doom and gloom.

In the real world I think you overestimate the power of Israel.  It's power is reliant on the support it receives from the US.  Fullstop.  Sure, in a conventional war, they would be a tough challenge for any coalition of Middle Eastern forces but its military strength would be TOTALLY incapable of resisting a coalition of forces from Iran, Russia and Turkey like your prophecies suggest.  Israel would be annihilated and there would be no comeback. Also, if you think the world would accept that Israel be allowed to take the first step and fire their nukes at will, you're wrong. 

 

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

In the real world I think you overestimate the power of Israel.  It's power is reliant on the support it receives from the US.  Fullstop.  Sure, in a conventional war, they would be a tough challenge for any coalition of Middle Eastern forces but its military strength would be TOTALLY incapable of resisting a coalition of forces from Iran, Russia and Turkey like your prophecies suggest.  Israel would be annihilated and there would be no comeback. Also, if you think the world would accept that Israel be allowed to take the first step and fire their nukes at will, you're wrong. 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  I agree that Israel could best any of their neighbors.  Even if 3 came against them like in '67.  The point of the prophecy agrees with your assessment totally.  Israel IS incapable of even surviving a conflict against such a vast coalition of modern forces.  If you take the time to read Ezekiel 38/39 you will see that the whole purpose of this war isn't to glorify the secular nation of the Jewish people.  The purpose, plainly stated, is to sanctify and glorify the God of the Bible.  IOW when non-believers see an unbeatable group of nations basically slaughtered on the mountains of Israel by means that are clearly supernatural and seemingly impossible, the people WILL give glory/respect to God.  There won't be any other way for a rational, honest individual to explain what happened.  Sure, people like XFish and Rlyeh will always scoff but even the scoffers will know, they just won't ever admit.  As to their willingness and ability to use nukes if they find themselves in extremis, what makes you believe that these people...especially THESE people, would hesitate to destroy their enemies if they KNEW that they and their children were about to be either exterminated or dispersed to the 4 winds again?  What would cause them to hold their hand in such a case?  Even an overwhelming, genocidal nuclear first strike would not stop them from massive retaliation by submarine-launched nukes.

Ezekiel 38:16  And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

If you read the next few verses the supernatural nature of what will happen is explained.  I have no doubt at all that these things will happen and after they do, no one will have an excuse to doubt the veracity of prophecy from that point on.  Those who willfully deny God at that point will be without excuse and their fate will be sealed by themselves.

[Rlyeh]

and then continue to cherry pick your Bible. I'm still waiting for the first chapter of Genesis to take place.

[+and-then]

 

11 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

and then continue to cherry pick your Bible. I'm still waiting for the first chapter of Genesis to take place.

Of course, you are, Rlyeh.  You're dedicated, like that!  Soldier on...

[RoofGardener]

On 29/07/2018 at 8:46 AM, and then said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  I agree that Israel could best any of their neighbors.  Even if 3 came against them like in '67.  The point of the prophecy agrees with your assessment totally.  Israel IS incapable of even surviving a conflict against such a vast coalition of modern forces.  If you take the time to read Ezekiel 38/39 you will see that the whole purpose of this war isn't to glorify the secular nation of the Jewish people.  The purpose, plainly stated, is to sanctify and glorify the God of the Bible.  IOW when non-believers see an unbeatable group of nations basically slaughtered on the mountains of Israel by means that are clearly supernatural and seemingly impossible, the people WILL give glory/respect to God.  There won't be any other way for a rational, honest individual to explain what happened.  Sure, people like XFish and Rlyeh will always scoff but even the scoffers will know, they just won't ever admit.  As to their willingness and ability to use nukes if they find themselves in extremis, what makes you believe that these people...especially THESE people, would hesitate to destroy their enemies if they KNEW that they and their children were about to be either exterminated or dispersed to the 4 winds again?  What would cause them to hold their hand in such a case?  Even an overwhelming, genocidal nuclear first strike would not stop them from massive retaliation by submarine-launched nukes.

Ezekiel 38:16  And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

If you read the next few verses the supernatural nature of what will happen is explained.  I have no doubt at all that these things will happen and after they do, no one will have an excuse to doubt the veracity of prophecy from that point on.  Those who willfully deny God at that point will be without excuse and their fate will be sealed by themselves.

I'm afraid I still don't follow you And Then. How do you see this panning out ? 

I think you've stated that the Exekiel prophesy may be coming true, with an alliance of Iran, Turkey and Russia positioning themselves for an attack against Israel, fulfilling the first part of the prophesy. 

But what will fulfil the second part ? That the Iranian/Turkish/Russian forces will be destroyed by some sort of supernatural force ? Or are you suggesting a political metaphor: that America will intervene, with President Trump taking on the role of the vengeful God ?  

Edited July 30, 2018 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm afraid I still don't follow you And Then. How do you see this panning out ? 

I think you've stated that the Exekiel prophesy may be coming true, with an alliance of Iran, Turkey and Russia positioning themselves for an attack against Israel, fulfilling the first part of the prophesy. 

But what will fulfil the second part ? That the Iranian/Turkish/Russian forces will be destroyed by some sort of supernatural force ? Or are you suggesting a political metaphor: that America will intervene, with President Trump taking on the role of the vengeful God ?  

Ezekiel chapter 38, verses 18-23:

This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. ¹⁹ In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquakein the land of Israel. ²⁰ The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. ²¹ I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. ²² I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.²³ And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

There is much more in the chapter and in chapter 39 but this explains the true nature of what is predicted to happen.  Note the supernatural nature of it.  This will be God bringing HIS wrath on these militaries and showing through his destruction of them when Israel would essentially be helpless, that HE will protect them.  Some of the language may well be hyperbolic as writings of that culture can be but there are specific instances that seem to be plain and indisputable.

There will be an earthquake of such magnitude that people all over the world are disturbed by it.  There will be unnatural torrents of rain and hailstones and burning sulphur from the sky.  At some point in the battle, there will be fratricide on a large scale.  This could be due to the unnerving events taking place around the troops or it could be an expression of Shia/Sunni betrayal once the armies have a sense that Israel is truly to be defeated.  Each group might want the victory spoils more for themselves and start fighting the other elements that are near them.  Plague and bloodshed are mentioned as though they are primary events rather than being secondary to the fighting but I don't understand that idea.

There is language in chapter 38:13 that implies that some people/nations at the time leading up to this battle, will question the coalition about their intentions.  It sounds just like some meeting of the "security council".  

Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? 

The "Merchants of Tarshish are thought to be the seafarers that came to be the British.  The "young lions thereof" would be their colonials.  That's America and possibly the other colonials that came out of Britain.  Sheba and Dedan are the peoples of S.A. and some of the Gulf States.  They will question the actions of this vast army that is forming but they offer no help.  If you think that could never happen, listen to Democrat politicians these days as they talk about Israel.  It's like listening to Caspian Hare.  They make all the same points that he does.  That kind of sentiment is spreading in the U.S., especially among the younger generation.  If America turns its back on Israel as a coalition is forming around its territory and Israel is left to go it solo they will be left with the choice of using nukes or surrendering and I can't see any population, no matter how Left-leaning they might become, agree to leave themselves at the mercy of the Arabs.

[RoofGardener]

57 minutes ago, and then said:

Ezekiel chapter 38, verses 18-23:

This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. ¹⁹ In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquakein the land of Israel. ²⁰ The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. ²¹ I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. ²² I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.²³ And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

There is much more in the chapter and in chapter 39 but this explains the true nature of what is predicted to happen.  Note the supernatural nature of it.  This will be God bringing HIS wrath on these militaries and showing through his destruction of them when Israel would essentially be helpless, that HE will protect them.  Some of the language may well be hyperbolic as writings of that culture can be but there are specific instances that seem to be plain and indisputable.

.....

So you anticipate - through this prophecy - that

1. There will be an alliance of powerful nations that will raise armies and attack Israel in tandem, and
2. They will be destroyed by supernatural forces ? 

I find both of those scenarios unlikely. But then, Gog never invited me to any of his parties either !

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

So you anticipate - through this prophecy - that

1. There will be an alliance of powerful nations that will raise armies and attack Israel in tandem, and
2. They will be destroyed by supernatural forces ? 

I find both of those scenarios unlikely. But then, Gog never invited me to any of his parties either !

Here's the thing, RG.  I've been aware of this prophecy for a couple of decades and believed it would happen simply because I am a person of faith regarding these things.  But over the past couple of years, events have been moving rapidly toward these events becoming possible in the near term.  It seems SO imminent that I begin to wonder what my responsibilities will be If it actually is fulfilled in my lifetime.  Christians are called to share the good news and I try to do my part with that - not here because, frankly, I doubt seriously that there would be any who'd be interested.  I try in my daily life to witness to these things and that responsibility is going to become MUCH more urgent once some of these things come to pass.  

The primary motivator for Gog and his coalition will be to take a "spoil" or great wealth.  Israel currently has nothing like that.  Their greatest source of income is their IT and weapons industries.  That isn't something an adversary could invade and seize.  Over the past couple of years, however, new gas (and oil) reserves have been found offshore and in the Golan that would make the country totally energy independent and uber-wealthy.  Maybe THAT is the "hook in the jaws" that the prophecy speaks of.  Time will tell.

[bmk1245]

I have sneakin' suspicion some posts disappeared...