Gobleki Tepe: 15 New Temples found

[Piney]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

So yes the wheel and domestication of the horse was a nomadic achievement but nothing else really became of it until later on and then only through the 'rock stackers'. 

You forgot metallurgy, which was also a continuing development of nomads.

And what's wrong with living simple? People started farming because they had to. Not because they wanted to.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

You forgot metallurgy, which was also a continuing development of nomads.

And what's wrong with living simple? People started farming because they had to. Not because they wanted to.

My understanding is that metallurgy was invented in the Middle East. If you have other information id be happy to have a look at it. Nothing wrong with simple living. Just that you need rock stackers to develop medicines, engineering, make engines, harness the atom and go into space. 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

It might of been a cultic site following a religious leader who then failed or abused his power. When they realized how badly they were used and how much was wasted in people's time and resources they then destroyed it. 

A similar thing probably happened with certain Mound Builder Cultures. The Adena Wolf Cult leaders were scattered and killed and their bodies have been found from Kentucky to New Jersey. All suffering violent deaths. 

It could also be that each 'hunting clan' or family group had their own circle or that at set times old circles were decommissioned and a new one built because of x reason. This site may have been central to a number of HG groups ranges or it held  a particular importance now lost.

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

My understanding is that metallurgy was invented in the Middle East. If you have other information id be happy to have a look at it. Nothing wrong with simple living. Just that you need rock stackers to develop medicines, engineering, make engines, harness the atom and go into space. 

Indo-Iranians developed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

Indo-Iranians developed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronzemetallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.^[5]

^{I don't think they invented it mate. Rather they embraced it openly. Something that was beyond normal for the area.}  

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronzemetallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.^[5]

^{I don't think they invented it mate. Rather they embraced it openly. Something that was beyond normal for the area.}  

Follow the links and read around. The Indo-Iranians were also noted for their advanced medicine but that likely came out of constant warfare. 

They also brought bronze to China via the Andronovo Horizon trade routes. 

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronzemetallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.^[5]

^{I don't think they invented it mate. Rather they embraced it openly. Something that was beyond normal for the area.}  

 

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

They also brought bronze to China via the Andronovo Horizon trade routes. 

Quote

Numerous scholars have suggested that the Afanasevo culture was responsible for the introduction of metallurgy to China.^[16][17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasievo_culture#Culture

[Unusual Tournament]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Follow the links and read around. The Indo-Iranians were also noted for their advanced medicine but that likely came out of constant warfare. 

They also brought bronze to China via the Andronovo Horizon trade routes. 

I have and it seems that the middle east is were it was developed. I think you confusing mining and working for copper, which was very wide spread.

The following is a link that might help.

 http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=ab16

[Piney]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

I have and it seems that the middle east is were it was developed. I think you confusing mining and working for copper, which was very wide spread.

The following is a link that might help.

 http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=ab16

Quote

The technology of bronze is first developed in the Middle East. Bronze is in use in Sumer, at Ur, in around 2800 BC, and in Anatolia shortly afterwards. It then spreads spasmodically. It appears in the Indus valley in about 2500 BC, and progresses westwards through Europe from about 2000. At much the same time it is found in crude form in China, where it later achieves an unprecedented level of sophistication. From about 1500 BC the Shang dynasty produces bronze objects of exceptional brilliance.
Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=ab16#ixzz6CAr6KcOx

I don't agree with this because the better bronze work was found in Anatolia. 

[cormac mac airt]

17 minutes ago, Piney said:

Indo-Iranians developed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Some degree of it perhaps but early evidence of copper smelting can be seen at Plocnik, Serbia circa 5500 BC. 

cormac

[Unusual Tournament]

https://www.bodycote.com/history-of-metal/

[Piney]

46 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Some degree of it perhaps but early evidence of copper smelting can be seen at Plocnik, Serbia circa 5500 BC. 

cormac

 

37 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

https://www.bodycote.com/history-of-metal/

This says it started in Serbia. Which jives with Cormac's link. I do agree with the iron location and that they were Indo-Aryans doing it first. 

The whole thing is hugely political though.

On Adronovo and other Central Asian digs Turkic, Iranian, Russian and Mongolian researchers all call "me first".

Which got me a few mentions at the International Center for Persians Studies because I was a outsider saying "Iranians first". 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 hours ago, flying squid said:

That's what I'm thinking about. If there is no a connection between the emergence of agriculture. and the fact GT was buried.....then what was the reason? Does those people perhaps have leaved the area for some reas

My personal and entirely unsubstantiated theory is that GT was a trading hub - you know “if you want good quality mammoth meat, go to the wolf totem”, that sort of thing - the images were a universal signage system for peoples with different languages. 
 

over time, tribes were assimilated, wandered off or exterminated and trade moved away from GT as a hub. Maybe there was a plague outbreak and GT was buried to ensure no one mingled like they used to.

[flying squid]

I still think they buried Gobekli Tepe because of the emergence of farming and domestication, Neolithic people simply changed their way of life. They became farmers. In the beginning they were hunters and gatherers, and probably warriors too. Over time, they became farmers, and their past lives and the customs probably became less important to them. This can be seen in the Gobekli Tepe itself. T-pillars became smaller and smaller with each new layer. In the end, the whole GT monument was buried.

 

[atalante]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Atlante thinks like many other non-archaelogists. That somehow you need the ability to stack rocks to be advanced.....

 

DNA experts claim that people in haplogroup G started the Asian-Euro neolithic revolution, near GT.  Steppe peoples ca. 4000 BC were a johnny-come-lately group, who borrowed domesticated food and animals, adding horses to the mix.  

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/map_diffusion_agriculture.shtml

Edited January 26, 2020 by atalante

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, flying squid said:

I still think they buried Gobekli Tepe because of the emergence of farming and domestication, Neolithic people simply changed their way of life. They became farmers. In the beginning they were hunters and gatherers, and probably warriors too. Over time, they became farmers, and their past lives and the customs probably became less important to them. This can be seen in the Gobekli Tepe itself. T-pillars became smaller and smaller with each new layer. In the end, the whole GT monument was buried.

 

why would you bury GT because of farming ? If anything would gain in importance. Its more logical to assume that sudden climate change put an end to their farming practices and the inhabitants had to revert back to hunter gathering. they continuously came back to restart their agriculture and urban markets only to find that things changed. They gave up at some point. Trades and trade declined and it shows in construction. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, atalante said:

DNA experts claim that people in haplogroup G started the Asian-Euro neolithic revolution, near GT.  Steppe peoples ca. 4000 BC were a johnny-come-lately group, who borrowed domesticated food and animals, adding horses to the mix.  

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/map_diffusion_agriculture.shtml

My point is there were many similar revolutions world wide.  It wasn't in one spot. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

My personal and entirely unsubstantiated theory is that GT was a trading hub - you know “if you want good quality mammoth meat, go to the wolf totem”, that sort of thing - the images were a universal signage system for peoples with different languages. 

It could of been. That's what Poverty Point was. 

[Harte]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

My personal and entirely unsubstantiated theory is that GT was a trading hub - you know “if you want good quality mammoth meat, go to the wolf totem”, that sort of thing - the images were a universal signage system for peoples with different languages. 
 

over time, tribes were assimilated, wandered off or exterminated and trade moved away from GT as a hub. Maybe there was a plague outbreak and GT was buried to ensure no one mingled like they used to.

The burial of this ancient spot

Was done every decade, it's thought.

The old work they swap

With new work on top

Perhaps it was roaches they fought.

Harte

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, Harte said:

Harte

Look, the limeration on the Annucky was enough. Your really causing serious harm now. Hans threw Rupert into the oven and tried slitting his own throat with a pancake. 

I found him in the latrine covered in maple syrup gibbering his hemorrhoids had ruptured and Mt. Shasta had caught the coriander virus. 

[Harte]

59 minutes ago, Piney said:

Look, the limeration on the Annucky was enough. Your really causing serious harm now. Hans threw Rupert into the oven and tried slitting his own throat with a pancake. 

I found him in the latrine covered in maple syrup gibbering his hemorrhoids had ruptured and Mt. Shasta had caught the coriander virus. 

This protest of mine must be working

Though you think that your chain I'm just jerking.

That you want this to end

Means it's progress my friend.

Or would you prefer I chose twerking?

Harte.

[Golden Duck]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

Look, the limeration on the Annucky was enough. Your really causing serious harm now. Hans threw Rupert into the oven and tried slitting his own throat with a pancake. 

I found him in the latrine covered in maple syrup gibbering his hemorrhoids had ruptured and Mt. Shasta had caught the coriander virus. 

I was wondering if he could write a limerick with every line ending in rhyming slang; but, seeing he's from Tennessee, he's probably not up to it.

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I was wondering if he could write a limerick with every line ending in rhyming slang; but, seeing he's from Tennessee, he's probably not up to it.

Dunno mate, he's a fair dinkum of a bard. 

 

[flying squid]

7 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

why would you bury GT because of farming ? If anything would gain in importance. Its more logical to assume that sudden climate change put an end to their farming practices and the inhabitants had to revert back to hunter gathering. they continuously came back to restart their agriculture and urban markets only to find that things changed. They gave up at some point. Trades and trade declined and it shows in construction. 

You could be right, Captain. I remember, I was reading somewhere there are certain indications the Çatalhöyük (Neolithic settlement in the southern Anatolia 7500 BC - 5700 BC) was built by the people who left and buried GT. They left the GT area due to sudden climate changes, and settled in the southern Anatolia

[Tom1200]

1 hour ago, flying squid said:

You could be right, Captain. I remember, I was reading somewhere there are certain indications the Çatalhöyük (Neolithic settlement in the southern Anatolia 7500 BC - 5700 BC) was built by the people who left and buried GT. They left the GT area due to sudden climate changes, and settled in the southern Anatolia

Does that explain why they deliberately filled in all the enclosures?  Each one required hundreds (maybe thousands?) of tonnes of debris.  Even if this spoil was located nearby this would have been a huge undertaking.  What time frame do you envisage for the 'sudden' climate change?

Was GT hidden so it could be returned to and used once again for ... whatever it actually was?  Or was it buried in order to be forgotten?  Or to prevent other peoples using it and its magic?  

Or is there any evidence that the site was abandoned and the piles of spoil gradually blew in over the decades and centuries that followed?

Or - maybe they piled the spoil at the top of the hill as an artificial hill, a visual aid sticking out above the surrounding trees or a site for feasting after the sombre rituals down below.  Then one tragic day an earthquake dislodged this huge mound, rather like the Great Garbage Avalanche of 2505.

It's an amazing site and an amazing story.  I hope they start finding some answers - all I hear at the moment are questions and speculation!