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and then

Florida's Stand your ground to be tested

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lost_shaman

Let's be clear here. This was just a verbal dispute. The guy that got shot walked right in and escalated it into a physical assault. At which point the Law was on the shooters side. 

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freetoroam
1 minute ago, Kismit said:

Yes nothing stops a lunatic with a gun better than another lunatic with a gun. :no:

This is an unfortunate way for people to think.

If people just straight up did not try to justify murder but condemn it for the unforgivable act that it is, maybe less people would think the act of  aiming a gun at another human being was wrong.

I agree.

And at the same time maybe people will start respecting road and parking signs and not think they can do what ever they blooming well like. 

Jeeze .  We have road rage over here because of idiots like that. THANKFULLY we do not have guns.

Please note: i am not condoning the murder.....he went way too far.

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Kismit
1 minute ago, freetoroam said:

I agree.

And at the same time maybe people will start respecting road and parking signs and not think they can do what ever they blooming well like. 

Jeeze .  We have road rage over here because of idiots like that. THANKFULLY we do not have guns.

Please note: i am not condoning the murder.....he went way too far.

To me the topic of  the disabled carpark does not even make the radar in this.  And I spent 6 months 24 hours a day looking after my husband in a wheelchair. I now, in my job, am happy to police our handicap parking.

But that matter is so trivial in comparison to the death of a human being, that it should be a separate discussion all together. 

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freetoroam
1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

Let's be clear here. This was just a verbal dispute. The guy that got shot walked right in and escalated it into a physical assault. At which point the Law was on the shooters side. 

But in the chest? Does the law allow one to shoot another in the chest even when the other guy is backing off? 

It is not as if the young guy was on his property. 

I do not know your laws, but if you can shoot someone in the chest as they are backing off,  in a parking lot, then thats just mad.

If the shooter had waited another couple of minutes, chances are, the driver would have driven off.

But do not get me wrong, we have road rage here too because of idiots who think they can park anywhere, but we do not cold bloodily kill them. 

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Farmer77
Just now, freetoroam said:

I do not know your laws, but if you can shoot someone in the chest as they are backing off,  in a parking lot, then thats just mad.

In defense of the USA I have to point out that Florida is an um "special" place with "special" people and laws. 

 

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freetoroam
7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

To me the topic of  the disabled carpark does not even make the radar in this.  And I spent 6 months 24 hours a day looking after my husband in a wheelchair. I now, in my job, am happy to police our handicap parking.

But that matter is so trivial in comparison to the death of a human being, that it should be a separate discussion all together. 

Its what started this whole horrible event. Can you not see that?

The guy was on a mission to stop people parking there, someone did, this time it went too far. 

Why would we start a seperate discussion on parking in a disabled spot which does not involve someone being shot over when we got this one which does. 

Edited by freetoroam

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, freetoroam said:

But in the chest?

That's what you are trained to do if you use your gun for self defense in a concealed carry class. So in that respect it was textbook self defense. 

 

3 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Does the law allow one to shoot another in the chest even when the other guy is backing off? 

 

If you watch closely the guy who gets shot was pulling up his pants and then clinches his fists after pushing the older guy. He didn't actually back off. 

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Wickian
12 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

My impression is that your nation is already so far down that dark path that there is no turning back.

Eh, this shooting is really nothing special compared to the tens of thousands of others(mostly gang or criminal related) with even less merit done in the last few decades.  I somehow doubt this is the turning point "down a dark path".

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Kittens Are Jerks
3 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Its what started this whole horrible event. Can you not see that?

The guy was on a mission to stop people parking there, someone did, this time it went too far. 

Why would we start a seperate discussion on parking in a disabled spot which does not involve someone being shot over when we got this one which does. 

So write down the license plate number and report it.. What gave this guy the right to play parking enforcement officer?

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freetoroam
2 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

That's what you are trained to do if you use your gun for self defense in a concealed carry class. So in that respect it was textbook self defense. 

 

I will never understand you Americans. 

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Kismit
21 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Let's be clear here. This was just a verbal dispute. The guy that got shot walked right in and escalated it into a physical assault. At which point the Law was on the shooters side. 

Here is a list of crimes which may make you eligible for a death sentence.  Link 

Note: poor parking or pushing someone over, or even assault is not on the list.

So explain to me how anybody without legal statute, has the right to decide if you should live or die. A shove is not a threat to life.

Is there some way the man could have been charged with assault instead of murdered perhaps? 

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Miss Meeseeks
Just now, freetoroam said:

I will never understand you Americans. 

I seriously wouldnt want to either or this world overall in general...

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freetoroam
8 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

So write down the license plate number and report it.. What gave this guy the right to play parking enforcement officer?

There was a camera..it did not stop people parking there and the shop keeper did not seem to care.

So i would say frustration....and this time, it went too far.

What we do not know is how  many others have had a few words or even a fight with people because of people parking in the wrong spot?

We are only hearing about this one because someone got shot.

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lost_shaman
7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Here is a list of crimes which may make you eligible for a death sentence.  Link 

This wasn't a death penalty case, it was self defense. There is a major difference. 

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freetoroam
19 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

In defense of the USA I have to point out that Florida is an um "special" place with "special" people and laws. 

 

That i have seen. Is it something in the water? 

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Kismit
2 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

This wasn't a death penalty case, it was self defense. There is a major difference. 

One human being dished out a death sentence. There is precedent for a death sentence, there is also precedent for the use of deadly force, being pushed over is coincedently not on that list either.

Being pushed over is also not on the list of life threatening incidents. You do not need to defend yourself with deadly force unless your life or your family is in a life or death situation.

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lost_shaman
Just now, Kismit said:

One human being dished out a death sentence. There is precedent for a death sentence, there is also precedent for the use of deadly force, being pushed over is coincedently not on that list either.

Being pushed over is also not on the list of life threatening incidents. You do not need to defend yourself with deadly force unless your life or your family is in a life or death situation.

Again, I'll say the shooting was self defense within the Law. 

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ouija ouija

To start with the 47yr old(who I'm pretty sure is in several YouTube videos haranguing people) : he has a legitimate beef about non-disabled people parking in disabled parking bays and has made it his 'crusade' to harass people who do this. He has no authority to do this and so the most he should be doing is handing out leaflets explaining why people shouldn't do it. Perhaps he could approach people and speak to them politely. If they respond aggressively then he should immediately walk away. As others have suggested, he could record the number plate and pass it on to the police.

I get the feeling that he is so immersed in the righteousness of his crusade that he has literally lost his reason. The parking lot in the video is nearly empty ...... what does it matter if the family park there for a few minutes?! Perhaps this car park is always this empty; perhaps in every other car park they go to the family wouldn't dream of parking in a disabled space. The older guy has picked the wrong battle ground, in my opinion.

Again, as others have stated, it is not the responsibility of the shop keeper to police the parking spaces, I don't expect he has the time or resources. If someone who is disabled arrives to find there is no spot for them, they should take the numbers of the offending cars and report it.   

The young guy was just defending his wife and is to be commended for that. 

 

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Setton
36 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Let's be clear here. This was just a verbal dispute. The guy that got shot walked right in and escalated it into a physical assault. At which point the Law was on the shooters side. 

I got punched once at school. If I can get him to come to the US with me, can I just shoot him? 

Because he's exactly as threatening today as the victim in that video at the time he was shot. 

It was over. One guy was on the ground, the other was backing off. Self-defence after the event is a new one. 

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Kismit
2 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Again, I'll say the shooting was self defense within the Law. 

And again I will say that there is nowhere else in the civilized world that this would be a justifiable homicide. Nowhere else that this would not be murder, based soley on the fact that the man with the gun had other choices. Choosing to kill was not the only or most reasonable option.

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Piney

I did a 5 with a 3 in the max for having a legal gun in my hand while telling 2 trespassers who were harassing my stepfather to leave my property so this is all I'm gonna say. :mellow:

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eight bits

The law of self-defense has always been a mess. The old common law standard (if you have a clear avenue of escape, then you must take it rather than use deadly force) has its problems, too.

The present case shows that unrestricted "stand your ground," a 180-degree reversal of the common law standard, isn't a great idea, either. Also, there is "feature interaction:" concealed carry plus stand your ground equals killing fields at the convenience store. What a surprise.

Current case: the prosecutor has discretion as far as seeking criminal charges, and that's still being decided. The criminal standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. There is also a civil case, wrongful death, where the standard is (basically) "more likely than not" he shot for reasons besides mortal fear. I don't know what assets the killer has, but a good lawyer will ensure that the rest of his life will be miserable. He will envy the man he shot.

And oh yeah, there's the survivor's violation of parking in a handicap spot. The law varies among states, and I sure as hell don't know the finer points of Florida's rules, but in some states, if she's the driver and she didn't leave the car, then she didn't park it. Period. And of course if she wasn't the driver, then she didn't park it.

Either way, the shooter had no business with her.

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freetoroam
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I did a 5 with a 3 in the max for having a legal gun in my hand while telling 2 trespassers who were harassing my stepfather to leave my property so this is all I'm gonna say. :mellow:

Thankfully you had your head screwed on and did not shoot them, but saying that if this case is anything to go by and the laws, you could have and not got any prison time at all. 

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

Here is the video. It was just verbal and no-ne was being harmed until the guy McGlockton escalates it into a physical assault. 

You're right and he should have been charged with assault while the shooter was charged with harassment or disturbing the peace. 

The video also very clearly shows the man backing up before he was shot. This was murder. 

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Kismit

@lost_shaman unfortunately the unedited video can not be hosted at UM. 

but I think when you look at the video again yourself, you will see that the shove was a reaction to defending the other person in the parked vehicle, which defense do you think is the most justifiable? The back away shove or the lethal shot to the chest?

 

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