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and then

Florida's Stand your ground to be tested

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, Kismit said:

but I think when you look at the video again yourself, you will see that the shove was a reaction to defending the other person in the parked vehicle, which defense do you think is the most justifiable? The back away shove or the lethal shot to the chest?

Since you are asking, physical violence is never justified in a verbal altercation. 

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freetoroam
2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

You're right and he should have been charged with assault while the shooter was charged with harassment or disturbing the peace. 

 

Not sure about the bold. If someone is parked on the no parking zone  near where i park my car and i see them...i will remind them they can not park there.

A polite reminder to them usually works as they realise they have been rumbled taking the piste. 

It certainly is not harassment, if he was harassing customers then the shop keeper should have called the police. 

As for disturbing the peace...i think parking in the wrong place and coming out with all guns blazing ( no pun intended)  was what the guy who got shot did. 

You did not mention any parking fines....well they got the registration number now. :ph34r:

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ouija ouija

I just watched the video again. The older guy is standing very close to the woman when the husband comes out of the shop. I'm not surprised he pushed him away from her, that was a perfectly reasonable and understandable action to take. He pushed, he stepped back.  

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Kismit
6 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Since you are asking, physical violence is never justified in a verbal altercation. 

If you walked out of a store and your Mother/Brother/Wife/child/friend that you left in your parked car is being verbally abused, at close range, in their face so to speak. somebody is verbally attacking your loved one, what do you do? I would hazard a guess that pushing the threat away would be a very common subconcious response.

I am glad to live in a country where I am entitled to protect my family in this way.

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Farmer77
2 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

A polite reminder to them usually works as they realise they have been rumbled taking the piste. 

It was bad enough that another customer came inside to tell the manager that a man was harassing a woman outside. I dont really think it was just a polite reminder. That's definitely not what the victims family said but even discounting their version we still have the other customer coming in because the shooter was causing a disturbance. 

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lost_shaman
Just now, Kismit said:

what do you do?

My first reaction would not be to escalate the situation to physical violence! No. The guy who got shot was completely in the wrong.

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Farmer77
Just now, lost_shaman said:

My first reaction would not be to escalate the situation to physical violence! No. The guy who got shot was completely in the wrong.

Clearly you're not married then? If you get told some guy is harassing a woman outside and then go outside to see a guy in your wifes face yelling at her you really wouldn't feel that creating space between him and her was warranted? 

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Clearly you're not married then? If you get told some guy is harassing a woman outside and then go outside to see a guy in your wifes face yelling at her you really wouldn't feel that creating space between him and her was warranted? 

You can do that without assaulting someone. If there was a law that said you can react to verbal abuse with physical violence then the shooter would be in jail right now. You just simply can not resort to physical violence because someone is arguing with you.

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Kismit
8 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

My first reaction would not be to escalate the situation to physical violence! No. The guy who got shot was completely in the wrong.

So self defense is only acceptable so long as it is lethal and after the act?

In New Zealand self defense is described as protecting what is yours, your family, your home, your belongings, and your life. You are entitled to defend any of these things if you feel they are threatened. However that self defense does not extend as far as murder or grievas bodily harm. That is a civilized law.

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Kismit
5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Clearly you're not married then? If you get told some guy is harassing a woman outside and then go outside to see a guy in your wifes face yelling at her you really wouldn't feel that creating space between him and her was warranted? 

or a Parent, if someone did this to my child I wouldn't just shove them, and I don't deserve to die to protect my child from something I view as a threat.

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, Kismit said:

So self defense is only acceptable so long as it is lethal and after the act?

In New Zealand self defense is described as protecting what is yours, your family, your home, your belongings, and your life. You are entitled to defend any of these things if you feel they are threatened. However that self defense does not extend as far as murder or grieves bodily harm. That is a civilized law.

Here in the U.S. you can defend yourself with deadly force if you life is threatened. In this case law enforcment has sided with the shooter on those grounds. 

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Farmer77
Just now, lost_shaman said:

You can do that without assaulting someone. If there was a law that said you can react to verbal abuse with physical violence then the shooter would be in jail right now. You just simply can not resort to physical violence because someone is arguing with you.

No you actually cant according to the law. There is no way to physically move someone without technically assaulting them.

If you are so close to my wife that I feel the need to protect her you will be moved - legal or not that is the morally correct thing for a man to do. 

 

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lost_shaman
3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

or a Parent, if someone did this to my child I wouldn't just shove them, and I don't deserve to die to protect my child from something I view as a threat.

Well you should not be viewing a verbal argument as a threat. 

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Kismit
6 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

You can do that without assaulting someone. If there was a law that said you can react to verbal abuse with physical violence then the shooter would be in jail right now. You just simply can not resort to physical violence because someone is arguing with you.

He did not shove the man because he was arguing with him, he pushed him away from verbally abusing the other person, he was defending what was his.

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Setton
3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

So self defense is only acceptable so long as it is lethal and after the act?

In New Zealand self defense is described as protecting what is yours, your family, your home, your belongings, and your life. You are entitled to defend any of these things if you feel they are threatened. However that self defense does not extend as far as murder or grieves bodily harm. That is a civilized law.

In the UK, we refer to it as reasonable force. 

I.e. If someone is trying to hurt you, you have the right to hurt them to protect yourself. If someone is trying to kill you, you have the right to kill them if necessary. 

A gun on an unarmed person is not reasonable force unless they were about to kill you. 

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Kismit
Just now, lost_shaman said:

Well you should not be viewing a verbal argument as a threat. 

Oh my goodness, a Mother protects her child with her life, that is nature. shooting an unarmed person who is moving away from you, is murder.

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Setton

Seems some American 'men' (and I use the term very loosely) are only brave as long as they have a gun to hide behind. 

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lost_shaman
Just now, Kismit said:

He did not shove the man because he was arguing with him, he pushed him away from verbally abusing the other person, he was defending what was his.

He had no right to violently physically assault that man over nothing more than a verbal dispute. 

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Kismit
1 minute ago, Setton said:

In the UK, we refer to it as reasonable force. 

I.e. If someone is trying to hurt you, you have the right to hurt them to protect yourself. If someone is trying to kill you, you have the right to kill them if necessary. 

A gun on an unarmed person is not reasonable force unless they were about to kill you. 

again civilized. Reasonable force to protect what is yours.

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Kismit
1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

He had no right to violently physically assault that man over nothing more than a verbal dispute. 

He had more right than the man who took his life for being pushed over.  

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seanjo

Having seen the vid there was no need to shoot, but I like the idea of stand your ground.

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, Kismit said:

He had more right than the man who took his life for being pushed over. 

That's your opinion, but he was within his rights to defend himself. 

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

That's your opinion, but he was within his rights to defend himself. 

Too bad he didnt actually do that. He instead shot a man who was backing away from him.

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freetoroam
10 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

It was bad enough that another customer came inside to tell the manager that a man was harassing a woman outside. I dont really think it was just a polite reminder. That's definitely not what the victims family said but even discounting their version we still have the other customer coming in because the shooter was causing a disturbance. 

Did they go and complain before or after the shooting?

If before...why did no one go out to speak to him....AGAIN:

Could they not have gone out there, it was on the owners property.

here we go:

Quote

ABC reported that the owner of the convenience store, who was not named, has previously called the police to report Drejka for confronting customers over parking.

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/markeis-mcglockton-stand-your-ground-parking-lot-shooting_us_5b55c08be4b0b15aba9091f4

Then why was he still allowed to do so and why was he still allowed there? 

Again, why have the sign there in the first place if no one is going to enforce it. I have seen rows over parking spaces and areas and have seen a few windows put in because of it.....again, thankfully we do not have guns here.

Can not understand why Drejka was not banned if the police had been called out in the past...or even spoken to "politely" and told next time, take down their license number and report them (but doubt the police would have done anything if he had already been reported to them in the past) ... even go into the shop and ask the owner to call them theirselves. 

This all seems really odd.

 

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Too bad he didnt actually do that. He instead shot a man who was backing away from him.

This is getting old. Law enforcement sided with the shooter in this case. 

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