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OverSword

Majority of US Welcome Putin to White House

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Einsteinium
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

First of all Trump is not FDR and Putin is not Hitler.  And we are not in a shooting war with Russia.  You need to step back the imagery.  You are believing your own propaganda.  No, FDR may never have called out Hitler for meddling in Poland’s sovereignty but he did turn the other way when Poland was betrayed to the Soviet Union.

I agree 100% that Trump is no FDR. The way Russia is cyberattacking us I would not be surprised if Putin found himself in a shooting war at some point. The West at some point needs to counter the Russia threat or it will keep growing, Trumps appeasement of Putin is not going to help this at all. What this is going to lead to is Russia being emboldened, they may seize another neighbor state if they think Trump will not back the west against such a move. Trumps pro Russian rhetoric is dangerous for this reason, appeasement does not work and it is surprising that so many of you on here back Trumps effort to appease Putin.

10 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Precisely.

I was being sarcastic, and you are wrong, this is not brilliant statecraft, this is make it up as you go foreign policy. If Trump really cared about Russian cyberattacks and election meddling he would direct his government to take action and do something about it. Per his own national security team he has not directed them to take any actions to counter the Russian cyberattack efforts. 

 

15 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

If the Russians have a full transcript, then where is it?  What happened in the meeting?

Of course the Russians have a full transcript, they are not stupid like we apparently are. Why would the Russians share that information with us? How sad would that be if we had to find out what happened in a meeting between the US president and the Russian president from the Russians? Disgraceful. The problem is that we don't know what happened in that meeting. The Russians have indicated that agreements and plans were made, but we have no clue what they are. Plans between Russia and the US presidents could impact millions of lives and in a free society which we claim to be, we have every right to know what our public servants are or are not agreeing to with foreign leaders.

 

17 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

You seriously think that Trump and Putin are doing the same thing?  Do they have a secret plan to divvy up Europe?  If that’s the case, then what difference does it make where they meet?  But if this is not the case, which the odds are, then yes, this could be the simple act that prevents war.  And Trump will be able to unify Europe and Russia to deal with China.

I think that they have similar ideological positions on Europe and leadership in general. It doesn't matter where they meet to me. It just matters that we don't know what was said or whether or not anything was agreed to. What could prevent war is if Putin stopped killing people abroad and stopped meddling in democracies. Putin chooses to continue attacking us. Trump can't even unify the people of his own country, and yet you think that he can unify Europe and Russia? You see, this is why I call you guys Trumps followers. You believe he is capable of doing all these things despite total lack of any evidence to back it up.

 

28 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I don’t think Putin is a great guy, but that doesn’t matter.  Leaders meet in private all the time.  That doesn’t mean there is anything nefarious about such meetings.  For such a nefarious meeting to take place would mean that the trap is ready to be sprung and that requires for pieces to be in place.  I am not aware of mass alerts or movements.  Are you?

No, leaders from the US and Russia do NOT 'meet in private all the time'. I mean, really? That is just simply demonstrably false. Are you turning into a Trump and just making crap up now?

If nothing nefarious took place then why doesn't Trump brief his own national security team on what took place in the meeting? That is unprecidented and deeply concerning- that his own national security team is in the dark as to what took place. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

30 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

What rhetoric?  It’s your fantasy world.  We are not as special as you think you are.  We support the guy because we see who he is.  We look beyond the fluff the MSM tries to distract with.

God how I wish I was able to stick my head in the sand and live in a fantasy world as you suggest sometimes. But I just cannot do it. You do not see the guy for who he is, you see the guy he wants you to think he is.

The rest of us, we see him for who he is, and we see what he is doing.

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Robotic Jew

I don't have a problem with them meeting. I have a problem with them being closed door sessions where they're the only ones present, Trump refusing to acknowledge facts during these meetings, Trump just believing anything Putin tells him(regardless of evidence from MULTIPLE SOURCES IN THE KNOW), And with Trump walking into said meeting, pulling down his pants and then letting Putin have his way with him in front of the entire world.

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Einsteinium
9 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

I don't have a problem with them meeting. I have a problem with them being closed door sessions where they're the only ones present, Trump refusing to acknowledge facts during these meetings, Trump just believing anything Putin tells him(regardless of evidence from MULTIPLE SOURCES IN THE KNOW), And with Trump walking into said meeting, pulling down his pants and then letting Putin have his way with him in front of the entire world.

Trump is clearly influenced by Putin, that was on full display at that conference. He admires Putin, and that should alarm us.

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Big Jim

It amazes me how people can complain about the private meeting between Trump and Putin and then go on to claim they know what happened between the two men.  I see it only as a get acquainted meeting where nothing was intended to be accomplished except two powerful leaders getting to know one another.  They are in unique positions, both in respect to their own countries and the rest of the world.  Everyone else is subordinate, so who could possibly supervise?  They don't work out the details, there are secretaries and underlings for that.  But these two men have to be able to trust and understand each other before anything else can happen.  My belief is that it's better to have friends than enemies, but even if we must remain adversaries it is important to know the other person you're dealing with.  You can tell more about a person by meeting and talking for a couple hours than you can from a month's worth of briefs and reports from people who haven't met either one.

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Einsteinium
3 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

It amazes me how people can complain about the private meeting between Trump and Putin and then go on to claim they know what happened between the two men.  I see it only as a get acquainted meeting where nothing was intended to be accomplished except two powerful leaders getting to know one another.  They are in unique positions, both in respect to their own countries and the rest of the world.  Everyone else is subordinate, so who could possibly supervise?  They don't work out the details, there are secretaries and underlings for that.  But these two men have to be able to trust and understand each other before anything else can happen.  My belief is that it's better to have friends than enemies, but even if we must remain adversaries it is important to know the other person you're dealing with.  You can tell more about a person by meeting and talking for a couple hours than you can from a month's worth of briefs and reports from people who haven't met either one.

The issue is that we do not know what happened between the two men. I have no problem with them meeting. However, there are reasons why meetings such as this normally have a transcript and other people present in the room.

What concerns me the most is the fact that Trump has not even briefed his top level national security people on his private meeting. People with need to know like Mattis and Dunford by all accounts still have not been briefed on what took place in the meeting. That is deeply concerning to me and should be to everyone in the US. How do we know that no secret agreements were entered into? We don't. The Russians have implied that agreements were reached. They said in a statement, 

"The Russian Defense Ministry is ready for practical implementation of the agreements in the sphere of international security,” ministry spokesperson Igor Konashenkov said Tuesday, according to Russian news agency Tass. He added that Russia is “ready to enliven contact with the U.S. colleagues, between our General Staffs and via other communication channels.”

So what are the Russians talking about here? We don't know, and that is the problem. Trump is our public servant, not our king.

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Big Jim
1 hour ago, Einsteinium said:

The issue is that we do not know what happened between the two men. I have no problem with them meeting. However, there are reasons why meetings such as this normally have a transcript and other people present in the room.

What concerns me the most is the fact that Trump has not even briefed his top level national security people on his private meeting. People with need to know like Mattis and Dunford by all accounts still have not been briefed on what took place in the meeting. That is deeply concerning to me and should be to everyone in the US. How do we know that no secret agreements were entered into? We don't. The Russians have implied that agreements were reached. They said in a statement, 

"The Russian Defense Ministry is ready for practical implementation of the agreements in the sphere of international security,” ministry spokesperson Igor Konashenkov said Tuesday, according to Russian news agency Tass. He added that Russia is “ready to enliven contact with the U.S. colleagues, between our General Staffs and via other communication channels.”

So what are the Russians talking about here? We don't know, and that is the problem. Trump is our public servant, not our king.

You think that because it concerns you that everyone in the whole country should feel as you do?  Not much room for dissention in your view.  I don't share your paranoia about Russia or your distrust of our President.  Like I said in my earlier post, I see it as an opportunity for two powerful men, already separated by ideologies and levels of bureaucracy on both sides, to share a few private moments getting to know each other.  Nothing sinister about it.  They may come out friends or come out fighting, but at least one of those may have happened anyway.  It's much easier to go to war with people you haven't met personally.  I have no doubt that the stories demonizing Trump play as often in Russia as the ones demonizing Putin do here.  Do we want the fate of the world to depend on that?  When you get right down to it they are two old men with families and grandchildren who each want to do the best for their country.  I see nothing wrong with them meeting over tea and scones for a couple hours.

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Einsteinium
2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

You think that because it concerns you that everyone in the whole country should feel as you do?  Not much room for dissention in your view.  I don't share your paranoia about Russia or your distrust of our President.  Like I said in my earlier post, I see it as an opportunity for two powerful men, already separated by ideologies and levels of bureaucracy on both sides, to share a few private moments getting to know each other.  Nothing sinister about it.  They may come out friends or come out fighting, but at least one of those may have happened anyway.  It's much easier to go to war with people you haven't met personally.  I have no doubt that the stories demonizing Trump play as often in Russia as the ones demonizing Putin do here.  Do we want the fate of the world to depend on that?  When you get right down to it they are two old men with families and grandchildren who each want to do the best for their country.  I see nothing wrong with them meeting over tea and scones for a couple hours.

I think that everyone should be concerned about it because it potentially impacts all of us. Just because I myself am concerned about something does not mean I think everyone should be concerned about it. Everyone should be concerned about this, because Russia has been and continues to cyber-attack us. How can that not be a big deal to you guys? You don't care that Russia is waging a cyber attack on our country and electoral processes? I mean, really? You don't care about that? 

I mean Jesus you guys. Many of you on here flew off into a rage when Obama suggested meeting with Kim Jon Un without preconditions, and then Trump does that and it is okay? You guys are such freaking hypocrites! Trump actually met with the leader of a country actively attacking us without any preconditions and suddenly it is brilliant statecraft, if Obama had done that, you would be calling for his head and you know that is true.

So what does that mean? What does your hypocrisy really mean at a deep level? Why the double standard?

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Big Jim
4 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

I think that everyone should be concerned about it because it potentially impacts all of us. Just because I myself am concerned about something does not mean I think everyone should be concerned about it. Everyone should be concerned about this, because Russia has been and continues to cyber-attack us. How can that not be a big deal to you guys? You don't care that Russia is waging a cyber attack on our country and electoral processes? I mean, really? You don't care about that? 

I mean Jesus you guys. Many of you on here flew off into a rage when Obama suggested meeting with Kim Jon Un without preconditions, and then Trump does that and it is okay? You guys are such freaking hypocrites! Trump actually met with the leader of a country actively attacking us without any preconditions and suddenly it is brilliant statecraft, if Obama had done that, you would be calling for his head and you know that is true.

So what does that mean? What does your hypocrisy really mean at a deep level? Why the double standard?

I don't know who "you guys" are and I sure don't speak for them.  So I can't answer any questions directed at "you guys".   I gave you my humble opinion.  I notice in your first two sentences that you state that "I think everyone should be concerned" and that (it) "does not mean I think everyone should be concerned".  Pardon me if I don't understand.  I have never called for anyone's head, even Obama's.  So what you claim to "know...is true" is not even close.  I thought we could have a conversation but I see you don't need me for that since you seem to be arguing against your own imagination and conjecture.  Carry on with "you guys".

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Einsteinium
5 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I don't know who "you guys" are and I sure don't speak for them.  So I can't answer any questions directed at "you guys".   I gave you my humble opinion.  I notice in your first two sentences that you state that "I think everyone should be concerned" and that (it) "does not mean I think everyone should be concerned".  Pardon me if I don't understand.  I have never called for anyone's head, even Obama's.  So what you claim to "know...is true" is not even close.  I thought we could have a conversation but I see you don't need me for that since you seem to be arguing against your own imagination and conjecture.  Carry on with "you guys".

You guys refers to Trump supporters.

I am saying that I think everyone should be concerned because of the underlying issues, not just because I am concerned. Admittedly that was worded badly.

 

Maybe you were not calling for Obama's head, but the right just about lost their minds when Obama suggested meeting with Kim Jon Un without preconditions. I remember seeing Hannity just railiing against Obama and talking about how dumb an naiive he was to think meeting without preconditions was a smart idea.

And now, with Trump actually doing that (meeting with adversaries without preconditions) the right thinks it is just brilliant statecraft. It is just unbelievable to me that a few years ago the right was screaming about Obama just merely talking of meeting with Kim without preconditions, and now they are praising Trumps brilliance for doing that exact thing. Can you explain that hypocrisy?

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Sir Wearer of Hats
3 hours ago, Robotic Jew said:

I don't have a problem with them meeting. I have a problem with them being closed door sessions where they're the only ones present, Trump refusing to acknowledge facts during these meetings, Trump just believing anything Putin tells him(regardless of evidence from MULTIPLE SOURCES IN THE KNOW), And with Trump walking into said meeting, pulling down his pants and then letting Putin have his way with him in front of the entire world.

In El Trumpo’s defence - he’s not believing Putin, he’s saying he believes Putin. 

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Big Jim
53 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

You guys refers to Trump supporters.

I am saying that I think everyone should be concerned because of the underlying issues, not just because I am concerned. Admittedly that was worded badly.

 

Maybe you were not calling for Obama's head, but the right just about lost their minds when Obama suggested meeting with Kim Jon Un without preconditions. I remember seeing Hannity just railiing against Obama and talking about how dumb an naiive he was to think meeting without preconditions was a smart idea.

And now, with Trump actually doing that (meeting with adversaries without preconditions) the right thinks it is just brilliant statecraft. It is just unbelievable to me that a few years ago the right was screaming about Obama just merely talking of meeting with Kim without preconditions, and now they are praising Trumps brilliance for doing that exact thing. Can you explain that hypocrisy?

No, I cannot. I am not part of any group.  I have no larger affiliation.  I speak only for myself.  You will have to ask "the Right" if you can find them.  Perhaps inquire of Hannity himself.  Word it however you will, it still sounds like you think everyone should believe as you do.  

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Einsteinium said:

The issue is that we do not know what happened between the two men.

And we don’t need to know.  What gets me is that Obama was perhaps the most secretive President we had, weaving his plans to usurp the Constitution and nobody cared.  He artificially kept the economy anemic.  Trump has been very transparent where he stands.  His patriotism is inspiring.  Shall we wait for Friday’s report?  If we’re over 4% growth, is that an indication of someone trying to destroy this nation or trying to get us caught up to where we need to be?

 

I have no problem with them meeting. However, there are reasons why meetings such as this normally have a transcript and other people present in the room.

Not all such meetings produce a transcript, especially if it is an informal meeting.  All that is needed is a translator.  I would love to find out what their translator can tell us, but I’m pretty sure that when he reveals that the meeting was a nothing burger, you’ll say that the translator is lying and go back to spewing hate.

 

What concerns me the most is the fact that Trump has not even briefed his top level national security people on his private meeting. People with need to know like Mattis and Dunford by all accounts still have not been briefed on what took place in the meeting.

That should be a dead giveaway right there.  If they have not been briefed then there was probably nothing to brief them on.  And, how do you know he didn’t already brief them? 

 

That is deeply concerning to me and should be to everyone in the US. How do we know that no secret agreements were entered into? We don't. The Russians have implied that agreements were reached. They said in a statement, 

It’s only deeply concerning to you because of your blind hatred of Trump.  If there were secret agreements, then I really doubt that a statement would have been released.  No doubt agreements have been reached, more than likely how will the next meeting go, etc.

 

So what are the Russians talking about here? We don't know, and that is the problem. Trump is our public servant, not our king.

No, he’s not our king but neither are you.  We elected him to do things without having to keep us informed all the time.  But it sounds like this agreement is in the Russian's court right now.  Trump is waiting for certain things to happen (not nefarious) before he deems it important to act any further.

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Einsteinium said:

I think that everyone should be concerned about it because it potentially impacts all of us. Just because I myself am concerned about something does not mean I think everyone should be concerned about it.

As Big Jim stated: WTF?!

 

Everyone should be concerned about this, because Russia has been and continues to cyber-attack us. How can that not be a big deal to you guys? You don't care that Russia is waging a cyber attack on our country and electoral processes? I mean, really? You don't care about that? 

And we cyber-attack them.  Should Putin be concerned about that?  Has he launched nukes at us yet in retaliation?  It is not the end of the world.  It is just part of the game of spycraft.

 

I mean Jesus you guys. Many of you on here flew off into a rage when Obama suggested meeting with Kim Jon Un without preconditions, and then Trump does that and it is okay? You guys are such freaking hypocrites!

Some did, but the issue here is character.  Obama would have given a fellow dictator, keys to the store.  Trump treated him according to the way he acted and deserved.  When Un acted rational, then Trump could get down to business to de-nuclearize the Korean Peninsula.

 

Trump actually met with the leader of a country actively attacking us without any preconditions and suddenly it is brilliant statecraft, if Obama had done that, you would be calling for his head and you know that is true.

Again, you are blowing it out of proportion.  Maybe Putin attacks us because he expects us to attack back?  Trump took the heat to show Putin that he is serious about burying the hatchet.  We’ll see if that works??  If not then we can go drop a bunch of nukes on him to satisfy you, ok?

 

So what does that mean? What does your hypocrisy really mean at a deep level? Why the double standard?

There is no double standard.  The hypocrisy is coming from the Progressives.  All we ever heard was, you’ve got to try diplomacy before using the military option.  Well, here you go but all we’re hearing now is saber rattling.

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Paranormal Panther

Leftists had no problems when our leaders met with Russian leaders during the Cold War. This was during the era when a huge country, steeped in communism and human rights violations, posed an existential threat to our country and the world. Now, many leftists want to snub Putin because they're upset because Trump beat Clinton. Spare me the collusion claims since we all know that Hillary would get a pass from the new "McCarthys".

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Katniss

I think Trump is just keeping his friends close, but keeping his enemies really close. Because Putin will probably be running that country until he dies. So maybe Trump thinks it's better to keep friendly relations with Putin for now, so as to avoid any further aggressive behavior from Putin towards the U.S. Despite what Trump says to his base or what role he appears to be playing, I think he knows Putin is really our enemy, but right now he's got North Korea, trade wars, and the Muller investigation on his mind, and doesn't need Putin making things worse for him. So Trump befriends him for now to keep Putin out of our business.

 

Edited by Katniss

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Einsteinium

So none of you on here give a crap about the fact that Putin is currently cyber attacking our midterm elections? No Trump supporter on here cares about that?

All of you think that meeting with someone who is actively attacking our country and not even mentioning that fact in the press conference is brilliant statecraft?

 

I never thought I would see the day. This is unbelievable? You all believe Trump, a proven pathological liar, over the media? WTF people? You think Trump is a patriot!?!? We have truly lost our way. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves right now. None of you have a clue what is really going on, I knew a lot of ignorance was out there, but this level? Einstein was right about human stupidity.

Well, we all deserve what is coming then, our education system has failed us and not taught enough of us how to think for ourselves.

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Einsteinium
14 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Leftists had no problems when our leaders met with Russian leaders during the Cold War. This was during the era when a huge country, steeped in communism and human rights violations, posed an existential threat to our country and the world. Now, many leftists want to snub Putin because they're upset because Trump beat Clinton. Spare me the collusion claims since we all know that Hillary would get a pass from the new "McCarthys".

Again, I don't have a problem with Trump meeting with Putin. I have a problem with nobody knowing what was agreed to in that meeting when the Russians clearly have indicated agreements were reached. I have a problem with Trump not confronting Putin over his ongoing cyberattack on our country. Not confronting him over it sends only one message- keep doing it. And it sends the message to other countries that there will be no consequences if they do it too. That is freaking DANGEROUS. Do you not see that? Do not not understand that?

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Einsteinium

By the way, it appears that the Russians were also trying to help Bernie Sanders. We should also investigate his campaign and see if any collusion happened in his campaign as well. The Russian attack must be stopped.

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Einsteinium

Reagan: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall"

Trump: "Putin just said it's not Russia. I do not see any reason why it would be ... I have great confidence in my intelligence people but President Putin was extremely strong and confident in his denial today."

 

Boy the right wing has changed a lot since Reagan.

Edited by Einsteinium
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Big Jim

Mr. Einsteinium, unless I'm missing something, no one has referred to this meeting as "brilliant statecraft" except you, twice.  So you're putting words in the mouths of all "you guys" and then arguing against them.  Accepting it for what it was does not equate to being in awe of it.  

Second, I recall that 12 Russians were indicted for hacking into US computers.  That is 12 independent individuals who happen to be Russian citizens.  That is not the same as indicting the Russian government.  So it's quite possible that when Putin denies hacking it is true.  He would be speaking for the government acting on his instructions.  No leader can account for or be aware of every action taken by one of his citizens.  

Third, if the Russians really were trying to help Bernie Sanders, they're not very good at what they do.

You rail against people not being able to think for themselves when what you really seem to be upset about is that they do think for themselves, they just don't think like you.

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Einsteinium
9 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Mr. Einsteinium, unless I'm missing something, no one has referred to this meeting as "brilliant statecraft" except you, twice.  So you're putting words in the mouths of all "you guys" and then arguing against them.  Accepting it for what it was does not equate to being in awe of it.  

Second, I recall that 12 Russians were indicted for hacking into US computers.  That is 12 independent individuals who happen to be Russian citizens.  That is not the same as indicting the Russian government.  So it's quite possible that when Putin denies hacking it is true.  He would be speaking for the government acting on his instructions.  No leader can account for or be aware of every action taken by one of his citizens.  

Third, if the Russians really were trying to help Bernie Sanders, they're not very good at what they do.

You rail against people not being able to think for themselves when what you really seem to be upset about is that they do think for themselves, they just don't think like you.

Ravenhawk had previously used the term, " Ultimate statesmanship" which is basically the same thing as brilliant statecraft.

You don't know what is going on. The earlier indictment was for 12 Russian citizens, the latest indictment is for 12 Russian government agents. So yes, he is indicting members of the FSB who are part of the Russian government. And our intelligence agencies have solid evidence that this meddling was ordered by Putin himself. But you probably believe Putins denial over the assessment of all of our relevant intelligence agencies.

The Russians were and are trying to sow discord, divide the country, and undermind public confidence in our democratic republic. From my perspective, they are succeeding. We have not been this divided and partisan in a long time. Trump is doing what Putin would want him to do by sowing discord and shaking up NATO and the EU, etc. Putin could not be happier right now with Trump as our POTUS.

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Hammerclaw

Russia, despite, sanctions, is still the EU's fourth largest trading partner, so why the US trying to establish better relations rankles them so is a mystery. Anyone who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis knows it's better to talk to the Russians than at them.

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Helen of Annoy
3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Russia, despite, sanctions, is still the EU's fourth largest trading partner, so why the US trying to establish better relations rankles them so is a mystery. Anyone who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis knows it's better to talk to the Russians than at them.

Trump is not talking to the Russians. He is listening to them.

It's obvious. It's just not possible, after the Helsinki catastrophe, to deny Trump is scared and acts subordinate to Putin. 

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Einsteinium
13 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Russia, despite, sanctions, is still the EU's fourth largest trading partner, so why the US trying to establish better relations rankles them so is a mystery. Anyone who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis knows it's better to talk to the Russians than at them.

Hammerclaw. I am all for better Russia relations, but that must start with Russia ceasing its cyber attack on us. As long as they are attacking us they are preventing a better relationship from developing. Trump blaming the US for the bad relationship while Russia has an ongoing cyberattack against us is disgraceful. Can you imaging FDR blaming the US for the attack on Pearl Harbor, or Bush blaming the US for 9/11? WTF Hamerclaw don't you see this for what it is?

Wake up man.

Edited by Einsteinium
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OverSword
12 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

Hammerclaw. I am all for better Russia relations, but that must start with Russia ceasing its cyber attack on us.

Wake up man.

Wake up man

Live map of cyber attacks

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