Majority of US Welcome Putin to White House

[Einsteinium 1,960]

18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Wake up man

Live map of cyber attacks

Man, I work in the tech industry. I go through cyber attack training on a regular basis. I am aware of the number of threats out there. That map is not at all surprising to me.

However, these specific attacks being launched by Russia are different, they are more sophisticated, and they are very strategic and targeted. We now know that they have targeted and tried to hack into at least 1 democratic senator, one considered to be the most vulnerable democrat senator in the midterms no less:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-mccaskill-russia-hackers-20180726-story.html

This is undoubtedly the tip of the iceburg of hacking efforts against our Public Servants that Russia is engaged in currently. 

 

I would like to note, that one of our political parties using outside influence to win elections was one of the great fears of our founding fathers. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Einsteinium

[Einsteinium 1,960]

I honestly think part of the problem is that a cyber attack is such an abstract thing to most people. People don't understand it, and therefore minimize the importance of it.

I am going to give you Trump supporters the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't understand enough about cyber attacks to realize what a grave threat this is and how serious this really is. And that ignorance is a big part of why this strategy has been so effective for the FSB.

[OverSword 58,258]

17 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

Man, I work in the tech industry. I go through cyber attack training on a regular basis. I am aware of the number of threats out there. That map is not at all surprising to me.

However, these specific attacks being launched by Russia are different, they are more sophisticated, and they are very strategic and targeted. We now know that they have targeted and tried to hack into at least 1 democratic senator, one considered to be the most vulnerable democrat senator in the midterms no less:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-mccaskill-russia-hackers-20180726-story.html

This is undoubtedly the tip of the iceburg of hacking efforts against our Public Servants that Russia is engaged in currently. 

 

I would like to note, that one of our political parties using outside influence to win elections was one of the great fears of our founding fathers. 

Do you suppose that elements of the US government/military do this not only to Russia but to every other government in the world?  I seem to recall the Obama administration got caught hacking the communications of every leader in the EU.  I just find it laughable that people make a big deal out of this as if it's not just standard and expected action at this point world wide.  Sorry not outraged.

[Einsteinium 1,960]

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Do you suppose that elements of the US government/military do this not only to Russia but to every other government in the world?  I seem to recall the Obama administration got caught hacking the communications of every leader in the EU.  I just find it laughable that people make a big deal out of this as if it's not just standard and expected action at this point world wide.  Sorry not outraged.

If our government is currently hacking into say, Germany's politicians emails and then disseminating damaging information to influence the outcome of that election then we should be sanctioned and punished for that by the rest of the world. That should be unacceptable behavior, and that is what Russia is doing.

Gathering intelligence is one thing, turning that intelligence into a weapon and then using that weapon to attack the government of another country is possibly an act of war. Our laws have not yet caught up with our technology, and this is a glaring example of that.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume that you just do not understand this enough to be outraged by it. Your comments here make it clear that you don't see the difference between gathering intelligence and information warfare. The real question then is how do we educate the people so they understand sophisticated attacks like this enough to push our government to do something to stop it, since they are obviously asleep at the wheel right now.

 

Makes you wonder though, if the Russians are attacking democrats and the republican controlled congress is not forcing the President to take action on this, is there some kind of quid pro quo going on? Would explain why some republicans are trying to halt the Russia investigation along with Trump. Troubling times we are in that is for sure.

[RavenHawk 11,490]

1 hour ago, Einsteinium said:

So none of you on here give a crap about the fact that Putin is currently cyber attacking our midterm elections? No Trump supporter on here cares about that?

That’s a completely wrong analysis of the situation.  It’s a situation where you have such a irrational hope of being true because the stability of your world highly depends on Trump being the bogeyman.  You’re one President behind.  And that is the really amazing thing.  I honestly don’t recall you this vehemently anti-Obama.  Many of the attributes you put on Trump, actually dripped off of Obama.  I don’t know how many times I’m going to have to repeat myself until it sinks in? 

 

It’s not a matter of caring or giving a crap, it’s a matter of being situationally aware.  There are two things to look at.  We are actively cyber attacking Russia, so we have a war of attrition going on.  Russia isn’t getting away with anything.  The other thing is that I’m pretty confident in our counter measures.  We thwart thousands of attacks daily just at my place of work alone.  We are attacked by China, ISIS, al-Qaeda, Ukrainian mafia, various allies, and non-state players like Anonymous, Guccifer 2.0, and probably even Assange.  Russia is down on the list.  The way to deal with this is effective counter measures and not threatening with bombs.  This spycraft makes us stronger as we can see the various mindsets across the planet actively working at finding a weak spot.  That allows us to find weak spots with them and turn the attack around.  I wonder if any of this is sinking in?

 

All of you think that meeting with someone who is actively attacking our country and not even mentioning that fact in the press conference is brilliant statecraft?

Absolutely.  Putin is meeting with someone who is actively attacking his country.  Does that not register with you?  Putin doesn’t have the edge.  Diplomatically, Putin now has stated that he did not interfere with our elections.  That doesn’t mean he didn’t hack into Hilary or the DNC.  So if evidence surfaces that clearly show that he did interfere, then Trump has the leverage to come down on Putin.  Putin will test that with time.  He’s going to hope that Trump forgets, but that’s a false hope with Trump.

 

I never thought I would see the day. This is unbelievable? You all believe Trump, a proven pathological liar, over the media? WTF people?

You’re trying very hard to believe it because it fits the narrative you want to believe.  This may be a news flash to you but Trump is not a pathological liar.  He definitely exaggerates things but that is hardly lying.  He defends himself from a biased MSM and they see that as lying.  It is not.  It’s like a self-fulfilling delusion on their part.

 

You think Trump is a patriot!?!?

Absolutely!  You see, I know his character.  I’ve seen Obama’s and Hilary’s character too.  Trump is clearly a patriot.  One of the things I do best is knowing character.  Character is not about being perfect.  It’s about where your heart is.

 

We have truly lost our way. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves right now.

Our Founding Fathers are standing up and applauding because the system they came up with worked.  We defeated Authoritarianism, which our system was designed to do and without a revolution.

 

None of you have a clue what is really going on,

Many of us do.  We’ve lived through 8 years of Obama.  We didn’t need a third term of Obama.  We weren’t fooled watching him dismantle the Constitution.  This nation has its problems but it didn’t need fundamental change.  We just needed a leader that is pro-American.  Obama was never pro-American.  He wanted to recreate America into some Socialist utopia.

 

I knew a lot of ignorance was out there, but this level? Einstein was right about human stupidity.

Yes, Einstein is right.  People are ignorant because they keep on trying the same stupidity over and over, especially when Socialism has been proven a failure.  Our Founding Fathers were acutely aware of this and gave us the Constitution.

 

Well, we all deserve what is coming then,

Yes we do.  Hopefully we’ve prevented the events that the previous Admin had put us on and we have corrected our course. 

 

our education system has failed us and not taught enough of us how to think for ourselves.

The reason that the educational system has failed is because Progressives have controlled it.  What do you expect when you stop teaching our children their history, the Constitution, citizenship?  It is the outcome of state run propaganda, err education.  Our children weren’t being taught to think for themselves but what the state wanted them to think.

 

You can learn from this or continue to show your ignorance.  I’m betting on the later.

[Einsteinium 1,960]

6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

hat’s a completely wrong analysis of the situation.  It’s a situation where you have such a irrational hope of being true because the stability of your world highly depends on Trump being the bogeyman.  You’re one President behind.  And that is the really amazing thing.  I honestly don’t recall you this vehemently anti-Obama.  Many of the attributes you put on Trump, actually dripped off of Obama.  I don’t know how many times I’m going to have to repeat myself until it sinks in? 

This is laughable. Thanks for the laugh.

 

7 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

We are actively cyber attacking Russia

Are we? And what specifically are we doing?

 

13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Absolutely.  Putin is meeting with someone who is actively attacking his country.  Does that not register with you?  Putin doesn’t have the edge.  Diplomatically, Putin now has stated that he did not interfere with our elections.  That doesn’t mean he didn’t hack into Hilary or the DNC.  So if evidence surfaces that clearly show that he did interfere, then Trump has the leverage to come down on Putin.  Putin will test that with time.  He’s going to hope that Trump forgets, but that’s a false hope with Trump.

If Trump ever comes down hard on Putin, I will be stunned. I sure hope he does, but I have zero confidence in that. It seems from all appearances, that Putin has some kind of leverage over Trump. Have you spent any time looking into Trumps business past dealings with Russia and his mysterious influx of cash right around the housing crisis time? I think some answers are likely to be found there.

 

14 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Our Founding Fathers are standing up and applauding because the system they came up with worked.  We defeated Authoritarianism, which our system was designed to do and without a revolution.

Historians totally disagree with you. They consistently rank Trump as being one of the most authoritarian US president in History and they list numerous reasons why that is the case, but you must know more than they do obviously. Obama doesn't even make the list. But you must just know more than the experts on this.

 

20 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, Einstein is right.  People are ignorant because they keep on trying the same stupidity over and over, especially when Socialism has been proven a failure.  Our Founding Fathers were acutely aware of this and gave us the Constitution.

I agree, but with one clarifying point. Socialism was not invented yet when our country was founded. Back then it was basically just Monarchy or Empire.

 

21 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes we do.  Hopefully we’ve prevented the events that the previous Admin had put us on and we have corrected our course.

I wish this were true, but I think history will judge this time as us taking a totally wrong course and it is leading up to a major crisis that most just do not see coming.

 

22 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

The reason that the educational system has failed is because Progressives have controlled it.  What do you expect when you stop teaching our children their history, the Constitution, citizenship?  It is the outcome of state run propaganda, err education.  Our children weren’t being taught to think for themselves but what the state wanted them to think.

I totally agree that eliminating civics and replacing it with social studies was a bad move. A very bad move. Part of the reason why people don't see what Trump is doing to our system is because they don't understand our system as they never were taught about it. That is very shameful. However, I think that it was just as damaging that conservatives forced creationism to be taught alongside evolution for example. Religion has no place in public schools as our govt. needs to be secular, and teaching creationism as though it is just as valid as evolution undermines the understanding of the scientific method and the importance of evidenced based objective understanding. The idea that there is one objective reality that we all live in is a crucial thing that we all must understand, and right now it feels like we literally live in 2 separate realities. That cannot last, as there is actually only one objective reality. So at some point, either you will be brought kicking and screaming over to my reality which I currently think is the objectively true reality, or I will be brought kicking and screaming into your reality and be forced to admit Trump is a great patriot and there is in fact a deep state conspiring against him and so on. I just do not see your reality as being the most likely objective true reality, too many leaps of faith and assumptions have to be made and occams razos indicates that your reality is the less likely one.

The most likely thing is that our realities will merge in some way, that you know the objective truth about some things, and I know it about other things, and we will realize where we were wrong and where we were right and merge together. I hope this is the case, as this way does not require anyone to be dragged kicking and screaming into a terrifying new reality

[OverSword 58,258]

39 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

If our government is currently hacking into say, Germany's politicians emails and then disseminating damaging information to influence the outcome of that election then we should be sanctioned and punished for that by the rest of the world..... Gathering intelligence is one thing, turning that intelligence into a weapon and then using that weapon to attack the government of another country is possibly an act of war.

And just what do you suppose the good hearted reason was for bugging Angela Merkel's phone was?  Watching her back?  Get real.

54 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

I will give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume that you just do not understand this enough to be outraged by it.

Then let me clear that up for you.  If they (our government or politicians) were doing nothing wrong there would be nothing outrageous to disseminate.  I know damn well they will never suddenly grow a conscience and turn themselves in from the goodness of their hearts so if there is something we should know and we learn about it I could give a flying fart where it came from as long as it's true, and I'm speaking of things such as HRC's illegal server.

1 hour ago, Einsteinium said:

Makes you wonder though, if the Russians are attacking democrats and the republican controlled congress is not forcing the President to take action on this, is there some kind of quid pro quo going on? Would explain why some republicans are trying to halt the Russia investigation along with Trump. Troubling times we are in that is for sure.

What I wonder is why Democrat operatives in the FBI have not been indicted for deceiving a federal judge of a FISA court to obtain felonious warrants to spy on Carter Paige? There is no doubt whatsoever that this crime took place. All the evidence is available. Yet not a single person has been indicted for the felony of intentionally deceiving a federal court.  Where is the real danger to our republic?  Russia?  I think not. 

[Einsteinium 1,960]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

And just what do you suppose the good hearted reason was for bugging Angela Merkel's phone was?  Watching her back?  Get real

Gathering intelligence. Duh.

 

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Then let me clear that up for you.  If they (our government or politicians) were doing nothing wrong there would be nothing outrageous to disseminate.  I know damn well they will never suddenly grow a conscience and turn themselves in from the goodness of their hearts so if there is something we should know and we learn about it I could give a flying fart where it came from as long as it's true, and I'm speaking of things such as HRC's illegal server.

This is a frightening position to have. So it is okay for Russia to cyberattack us and influence our election because they are exposing wrongdoing by our political parties? Wow, just wow. I don't know what to say to that. What Russia is doing is wrong, period. I don't give a crap whether or not a small bit of good comes from it, that small bit of good does not justify the terrible means used to get to it.

Also, HIllary's server was not technically illegal. Again you demonstrate your ignorance about what is actually going on. https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/02/396823014/fact-check-hillary-clinton-those-emails-and-the-law

Not to mention, the Trump white house is using private email addresses as well. It does not yet rise to the level of Hillary, but the hypocrisy sure does stink. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/26/the-trump-teams-private-emails-are-problematic-so-is-comparing-them-to-hillary-clintons/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92790a501caf

 

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

What I wonder is why Democrat operatives in the FBI have not been indicted for deceiving a federal judge of a FISA court to obtain felonious warrants to spy on Carter Paige? There is no doubt whatsoever that this crime took place. All the evidence is available. Yet not a single person has been indicted for the felony of intentionally deceiving a federal court.  Where is the real danger to our republic?  Russia?  I think not. 

You are mistaken and buying into the ridiculously easy to disprove claim by the right that something illegal happened here. Nothing illegal happened here, that has been made absolutely clear by the unprecidented release of that redacted FISA application. Even top republicans have admitted this. Please for the love of our country amend your reality to match the real objective reality on this.

[OverSword 58,258]

8 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

Gathering intelligence. Duh.

LOL!  By what right or legal action can we do this?

8 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

So it is okay for Russia to cyberattack us and influence our election because they are exposing wrongdoing by our political parties?

Yep.  As long as they were influencing our election by exposing true facts.

10 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

Also, HIllary's server was not technically illegal. Again you demonstrate your ignorance about what is actually going on. https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/02/396823014/fact-check-hillary-clinton-those-emails-and-the-law

As a public servant she did not have the right to conceal from the government or the public what she was doing while acting as SOS.  Regardless of the legality it's something that can factor in hugely on revealing the character of the person doing it and is therefore something that would be vital for me making an informed decision when casting my vote. 

17 minutes ago, Einsteinium said:

You are mistaken and buying into the ridiculously easy to disprove claim by the right that something illegal happened here. Nothing illegal happened here, that has been made absolutely clear by the unprecidented release of that redacted FISA application. Even top republicans have admitted this. Please for the love of our country amend your reality to match the real objective reality on this.

Ummm...Bull shirt.

[Hammerclaw 29,512]

There's a lot of Trump Derangement Syndrome flying around in this thread. You can almost feel the spittle, flying in your face. We've been cyber-fencing with other governments for years. Situational awareness leads to better defenses. You don't plan your defense based on,what you think your enemy will do; you base it on,what they are capable of doing. There will never be cyber-peace, so we must always be prepared for cyber-war.

[Michelle 23,491]

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

As a public servant she did not have the right to conceal from the government or the public what she was doing while acting as SOS.  Regardless of the legality it's something that can factor in hugely on revealing the character of the person doing it and is therefore something that would be vital for me making an informed decision when casting my vote. 

Throughout the controversy regarding her exclusive use of private email while secretary of state, Hillary Clinton has said she followed the rules. But the truth isn’t so clear cut.

Although some former secretaries of state occasionally used personal emails for official business, Clinton is the only one who never once used an @state.gov email address in the era of email. Some have questioned whether that practice violated rules regulating email use, transparency, records management or security.

cont...

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/mar/12/hillary-clintons-email-did-she-follow-all-rules/

[Big Jim 5,689]

5 hours ago, Einsteinium said:

Ravenhawk had previously used the term, " Ultimate statesmanship" which is basically the same thing as brilliant statecraft.

You don't know what is going on. The earlier indictment was for 12 Russian citizens, the latest indictment is for 12 Russian government agents. So yes, he is indicting members of the FSB who are part of the Russian government. And our intelligence agencies have solid evidence that this meddling was ordered by Putin himself. But you probably believe Putins denial over the assessment of all of our relevant intelligence agencies.

The Russians were and are trying to sow discord, divide the country, and undermind public confidence in our democratic republic. From my perspective, they are succeeding. We have not been this divided and partisan in a long time. Trump is doing what Putin would want him to do by sowing discord and shaking up NATO and the EU, etc. Putin could not be happier right now with Trump as our POTUS.

You're right about that.  I was unaware of these indictments.  Thanks for pointing them out.  Although your last sentence in that paragraph is wrong.  You will most likely be wrong every time you try to guess what I'm thinking instead of waiting for me to tell you.

Although, even learning of these new indictments hasn't changed my opinion about the summit meeting or subsequent meetings between Trump and Putin.  Given that the Russians are spying on us and us on them, including hacking by both sides, with that as a starting point there are only two ways to go, worse or better.  If we would have Trump punch Putin in the nose, figuratively, of course, then things between our countries will get worse.  If the two men, who lead countries with over a half century of animosity between them, approach each other as gentlemen in their meetings then perhaps things have a chance of getting better.  Worse is easy, we can have that by doing nothing.  Making peace is harder.  Someone has to extend the first hand and I'm glad Trump had the nerve to do it.

[Paranormal Panther 11,035]

9 hours ago, Einsteinium said:

Again, I don't have a problem with Trump meeting with Putin. I have a problem with nobody knowing what was agreed to in that meeting when the Russians clearly have indicated agreements were reached. I have a problem with Trump not confronting Putin over his ongoing cyberattack on our country. Not confronting him over it sends only one message- keep doing it. And it sends the message to other countries that there will be no consequences if they do it too. That is freaking DANGEROUS. Do you not see that? Do not not understand that?

You answered your own question. You don't know what they discussed in private. Therefore, you don't know whether or not Trump discussed Putin's meddling. I very much doubt that your side would be so unhinged if Clinton was in the White House, so forgive me if I don't take your hysteria over "danger" seriously.

[Michelle 23,491]

12 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

You don't know what they discussed in private.

People don't know what Bill Clinton discussed in a meeting with Putin at Putin's private home either. 

[Paranormal Panther 11,035]

2 minutes ago, Michelle said:

People don't know what Bill Clinton discussed in a meeting with Putin at Putin's private home either. 

Knowing Clinton, they discussed their privates. I wouldn't put it past him.

[Big Jim 5,689]

2 hours ago, Michelle said:

People don't know what Bill Clinton discussed in a meeting with Putin at Putin's private home either. 

I'd be more interested in knowing what he discussed with Loretta Lynch in that plane on the tarmac.  That may have had more of an effect on the last election than anything involving Putin.

[Michelle 23,491]

2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I'd be more interested in knowing what he discussed with Loretta Lynch in that plane on the tarmac.  That may have had more of an effect on the last election than anything involving Putin.

It certainly had a big influence on me! The only thing other than the news, that made me look into other events, was what I heard here.

UM interfered in the US election!!! 

[Farmer77 28,114]

5 hours ago, Michelle said:

People don't know what Bill Clinton discussed in a meeting with Putin at Putin's private home either. 

Clinton didnt have intricate financial ties to Russian oligarchs, nor had what is it now 10 different people in Clintons inner circle been caught lying about their contacts with Russia, nor had our intelligence agencies detected that Russia was working to get Clinton elected. 

You're comparing apples to oranges. 

[Michelle 23,491]

9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Clinton didnt have intricate financial ties to Russian oligarchs, nor had what is it now 10 different people in Clintons inner circle been caught lying about their contacts with Russia, nor had our intelligence agencies detected that Russia was working to get Clinton elected. 

You're comparing apples to oranges. 

I'm sorry, but...

I'm about done for the night. I'm sure this conversation will be very interesting.

[AnchorSteam 2,563]

3 hours ago, Michelle said:

It certainly had a big influence on me! The only thing other than the news, that made me look into other events, was what I heard here.

UM interfered in the US election!!! 

Cute, but what annoys me about all this is how many people hear "interfeared" and automatically assume that this means votes here changed... something the Dems repeatedly assured us was impossible, until five minutes after 9pm, November 8th, 2016.

Curious, ain't it? 

[Farmer77 28,114]

14 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Cute, but what annoys me about all this is how many people hear "interfeared" and automatically assume that this means votes here changed... something the Dems repeatedly assured us was impossible, until five minutes after 9pm, November 8th, 2016.

Curious, ain't it? 

Have you legitimately heard people making that argument? 

The only thing ive seen saying that happened was an op ed published today but due to some technical problems with the piece it's already been taken down 

 

[Farmer77 28,114]

 

 

Eric Trump Reportedly Bragged About Access to $100 Million in Russian Money

Quote

So when I got in the cart with Eric,” Dodson says, “as we were setting off, I said, ‘Eric, who’s funding? I know no banks—because of the recession, the Great Recession—have touched a golf course. You know, no one’s funding any kind of golf construction. It’s dead in the water the last four or five years.’ And this is what he said. He said, ‘Well, we don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.’ I said, ‘Really?’ And he said, ‘Oh, yeah. We’ve got some guys that really, really love golf, and they’re really invested in our programs. We just go there all the time.’ Now that was three years ago, so it was pretty interesting.

 

[Paranormal Panther 11,035]

17 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Cute, but what annoys me about all this is how many people hear "interfeared" and automatically assume that this means votes here changed... something the Dems repeatedly assured us was impossible, until five minutes after 9pm, November 8th, 2016.

Curious, ain't it? 

Let's say that Clinton won under identical circumstances. The MSM and the Resistance would be fine with it. The unhinged leftists would call people "Nazis" if they even questioned it. If Trump fans peacefully protested, they would claim that they violently rioted.

[Agent0range 6,273]

46 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Let's say that Clinton won under identical circumstances. The MSM and the Resistance would be fine with it. The unhinged leftists would call people "Nazis" if they even questioned it. If Trump fans peacefully protested, they would claim that they violently rioted.

That is the absolute definition of a strawman argument.  What if this happened, then they would do that.  You are building a case for something that didn't even happen.  And saying what people would do if something did happen.  That is the equivalence of me saying that conservatives would have a fit if Hillary won the election and was under investigation for colluding with Russia, or even if Russia was trying to make it happen.  It didn't happen, and I wouldn't mention it.  That is counterproductive to an actual debate.  You can "what if" all day, we can "what if" all day, but that is certainly not the way to have an intelligent discussion.  What if Bill Clinton had an extramarital affair and lied about it?  WE SHOULD IMPEACH HIM!  Oh, wait, we did.

[Paranormal Panther 11,035]

18 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

That is the absolute definition of a strawman argument.  What if this happened, then they would do that.  You are building a case for something that didn't even happen.  And saying what people would do if something did happen.  That is the equivalence of me saying that conservatives would have a fit if Hillary won the election and was under investigation for colluding with Russia, or even if Russia was trying to make it happen.  It didn't happen, and I wouldn't mention it.  That is counterproductive to an actual debate.  You can "what if" all day, we can "what if" all day, but that is certainly not the way to have an intelligent discussion.  What if Bill Clinton had an extramarital affair and lied about it?  WE SHOULD IMPEACH HIM!  Oh, wait, we did.

I'm just telling it like it is. Many people see through the leftists' double standards and hypocrisy. Some of them are former leftists who walked away from the Left. They saw how unhinged leftists are now. Identity politicians promote socialism at the expense of the bread and butter issues that really matter to most Americans. This Russian thing is nonsense, and most people realize this. It would be nice to see the Democrats get back to normalcy since one-party rule is not the best route to take in a constitutional republic. However, Democrats will reap what they sow if they continue this destructive course.