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OverSword

Majority of US Welcome Putin to White House

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Tatetopa
57 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Specifically when speaking of Trump meeting Putin on his own I think of it more like preemployment drug testing.  

In all honesty Farmer, nothing can happen in a private meeting that has not already happened over secure lines.  What is done has been done for a while, maybe a couple of years.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

In all honesty Farmer, nothing can happen in a private meeting that has not already happened over secure lines.  What is done has been done for a while, maybe a couple of years.

Exactly, private meetings like that are to sign documents and for the photo op afterwards.

4 hours?
They probably play Monopoly. 

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Tatetopa
13 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I think I prefer "i'd give him the benefit of the doubt if the stakes weren't so high" 

Farmer, as Paranormal once said, maybe we needed a reset.  President Trump may not have any great qualities but he may act as an emetic. 

I don't think he is political in the sense of nations, but he is very astute at the manipulation of people in groups, which is another level of politics.  He may not think or the US as anything more than a corporation he now owns and can direct and dispose of as he sees fit. I don't think Putin's power is blackmail, it is money.

The Prez pretty much soured American banks by stiffing them during his bankruptcies. They don't think of him as an astute businessman or a good risk.  Then he went to German banks, more recently Russian banks.  They are probably not relying on his business sense as much as his ability to launder money. a la Manafort.  Most recently, China ponied up several hundred million dollars for an Indonesian Trump Investment and magically  ZTE  gets its restrictions lifted.

Estimates of Putin's fortune are unreliable but start in the  $20-40 billion range.  Little Rocket man has his $5 or so billion salted away while his people starve.  The Ayatollah has his own $95 billion fund.    It makes the leader of the richest nation in the free world seem like a sucker.  President Trump is not a sucker.  He and his crew are going to monitize the Presidency.  How much of the country he will have to sell off to get what he wants, who knows.    But after he is out of office, we can rebuild and recover.

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

In all honesty Farmer, nothing can happen in a private meeting that has not already happened over secure lines.  What is done has been done for a while, maybe a couple of years.

You're not wrong about that point. Ill stand by the concept however that it wasn't good for America, regardless of whether anything was done in the meeting or not. 

 

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Farmer77
8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Farmer, as Paranormal once said, maybe we needed a reset.  President Trump may not have any great qualities but he may act as an emetic. 

We definitely need a reset in most arenas of our public and foreign policies. That for me is one of the most frustrating part of all of this. Much of the Trumpian rhetoric is correct. I just dont believe its any more than lip service from grifters and at this point and the evidence I think is starting to back that up. 

12 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

.  President Trump is not a sucker.  He and his crew are going to monitize the Presidency.  How much of the country he will have to sell off to get what he wants, who knows.    But after he is out of office, we can rebuild and recover.

I do appreciate your level headed approach. 

 

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Your side has the kings and the queens of divisions of all kinds. It's not just Mad Queen Maxine. Obama took a photograph with Farrakhan that your side hid. Al Sharpton was a frequent guest at Saint Barack's White House. The BCC recently met with Farrakhan. Ellison, considered for DNC *leadership*, was a defender and supporter of the NOI. Let's not pretend that it's the Republicans that are the main party of racists. The facts show otherwise.

Dude ive only ever voted for one democrat in my life and that was Mccains most recent opponent - hell I dont even know her name I was just voting against the war machine. 

My side is America not any particular party. 

You're not wrong about all of the things you said about the DNC, that however shouldn't blind you from seeing the truth about the RNC. 

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Paranormal Panther
35 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Dude ive only ever voted for one democrat in my life and that was Mccains most recent opponent - hell I dont even know her name I was just voting against the war machine. 

My side is America not any particular party. 

You're not wrong about all of the things you said about the DNC, that however shouldn't blind you from seeing the truth about the RNC. 

I could start a thread about corrupt and crooked Republican politicians from the past to the present. Republicans definitely have no monopoly on virtue. I just think that the collusion claims are more odorous than Pamplona when the bulls run (in more ways than one). I don't buy the charges against Trump for one millisecond, but that doesn't mean that I think his party is as pure as the driven snow.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

I do appreciate your level headed approach. 

 

False hope maybe?  It could turn nasty before it turns around.  I meant it when I said Trump is an emetic. It won't be pretty.

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RavenHawk
On 7/27/2018 at 12:32 PM, Einsteinium said:

This is laughable. Thanks for the laugh.

You laugh because it is inconveniently true.

 

Are we? And what specifically are we doing?

No, we’re not.  We’re a stupid and ignorant culture and too naive to spy on others.  We’ve only been lucky so far.

 

If Trump ever comes down hard on Putin, I will be stunned. I sure hope he does, but I have zero confidence in that.

Well now, he may not have to.  As I did say, this was the ultimate act of statesmanship on Trump’s part.  Look, Putin was coming into this summit fully expecting Trump to read him the riot act and then he would diplomatically give the West the finger.  That’s SOP.  But Trump didn’t do that.  Putin is on camera saying he (Russia) did not interfere in the elections.  Putin is in a tight spot, in that he’ll have to insure there’s not even a hint of interfering in the midterms.  There is more of a chance that the DNC will resort to their usual ballot box stuffing antics.

 

It seems from all appearances, that Putin has some kind of leverage over Trump.

Not from all appearances.  It’s a distraction put in your mind by the Progressives and MSM.  I’m surprised the MSM didn’t pick Gjorge Ivanov of Macedonia having leverage?  (yes, that’ smore sarcasm).

 

Have you spent any time looking into Trumps business past dealings with Russia and his mysterious influx of cash right around the housing crisis time? I think some answers are likely to be found there.

Enough to know he has dealings across the globe.  The housing crisis affected everyone.  Why would someone with only a $1 trillion GDP float money to a foreigner during a time of a recession?  More than likely, Trump was liquidating assets for cash and Russia is where the selloffs came from.  Trump wasn’t the only one that had a mysterious influx of cash at that time.

 

Historians totally disagree with you.

Oh?  What historians?

 

They consistently rank Trump as being one of the most authoritarian US president in History and they list numerous reasons why that is the case, but you must know more than they do obviously. Obama doesn't even make the list. But you must just know more than the experts on this.

I think it is time for a bit of clarification.  “Authoritarian” is doing double duty.  In general, all Presidents run the government as an Authoritarian.  That’s the way the government is run.  Authoritarianism as a flavor of Socialism is in reference to how Obama weaponized the government against the people.  You don’t need historians to tell you that.  We have eyes and can see for ourselves.  Trump is also dealing with Obama holdovers in the bureaucracy.

 

I agree, but with one clarifying point. Socialism was not invented yet when our country was founded. Back then it was basically just Monarchy or Empire.

Indeed, Socialism came later, however, it is Monarchy without the Monarch.  The term is a relative new comer.  But make no mistake about it, Socialism (Oligarchy) has been around from the beginning.  It doesn’t matter what name it goes by.  It changes, morphs, and divides over time.

 

I wish this were true, but I think history will judge this time as us taking a totally wrong course and it is leading up to a major crisis that most just do not see coming.

History has already weighed in.  We had already took the wrong course in the last Administration.  Fundamental Change was out right usurpation of the Constitution.  You describe what would have happened if Hilary had become President.

 

I totally agree that eliminating civics and replacing it with social studies was a bad move. A very bad move. Part of the reason why people don't see what Trump is doing to our system is because they don't understand our system as they never were taught about it. That is very shameful.

Trump isn’t responsible for the current sate of our educational system.  That comes from decades of Progressive policy.  By keeping the youth ignorant of their history is how you destroy a nation and replace it with Progressive ideology.  There are still enough people in this nation that have learned our values and elected Trump to return us to a Republic.  And he's already been doing just that.

 

However, I think that it was just as damaging that conservatives forced creationism to be taught alongside evolution for example. Religion has no place in public schools as our govt. needs to be secular, and teaching creationism as though it is just as valid as evolution undermines the understanding of the scientific method and the importance of evidenced based objective understanding.

What is damaging is Progressives trying to separate the two theories.  Nothing is more disingenuous to the intellect than to separate them.  We might as well set up our own version of Lysenkoism.    Evolution is no more provable than Creationism.  Creationism isn’t the science part anyway.  Genesis 1:1 is just a top level narrative of Evolution.  Science and Religion are not enemies.  Creationism does not threaten the scientific method.  Scientifically, we really don’t know enough about Evolution.  It is just an idea.  It is very intuitive and we have a long way to go to understand it.  To date, it is not provable.  The intermediate fossil record does not support it.  That doesn’t mean it is invalid, we just don’t fully understand it.  We shouldn’t think we do as if it was infallible.  And that doesn’t mean that we stop trying to understand it.  The vast majority of life has evolved in the last 540 million years.  The current understanding of evolution cannot account for this explosion.  We’re going to find out that Evolution is an innate intelligence that is directed.  It’s not random chaos as originally thought.  It can’t be.

 

Government does not need to be in schools either.  Schools are not part of the government.  Schools are to develop the intellect, not indoctrinate it.  Yes, our government is secular and it will stay that way but that doesn’t mean for it to be void of religion.

 

The idea that there is one objective reality that we all live in is a crucial thing that we all must understand, and right now it feels like we literally live in 2 separate realities. That cannot last, as there is actually only one objective reality. So at some point, either you will be brought kicking and screaming over to my reality which I currently think is the objectively true reality, or I will be brought kicking and screaming into your reality and be forced to admit Trump is a great patriot and there is in fact a deep state conspiring against him and so on. I just do not see your reality as being the most likely objective true reality, too many leaps of faith and assumptions have to be made and occams razos indicates that your reality is the less likely one.

Wow, that is really deep for you.  And Socrates would say that reality is an illusion.  But Progressivism is more of a fantasy than a reality.  I will never allow myself to be dragged, kicking and screaming.  I took an oath many many years ago to defend the Constitution.  That oath never ended when my service did.  How many more millions need die before you get-it that Socialism is detrimental to the human condition?  I could care less if you admit you are wrong.  Occam’s Razor?  Let’s see…Mueller’s witch hunt has come up with nothing.  Various members of the Deep State are in trouble and that is only the tip of the iceberg.  The progressives are self-destructing, i.e. “Impeach 45”.  The MSM is so negative, it’s become a joke.  It’s fun watching them fall all over themselves with the parroted anti-Trump phrase-of-the-day.  People see that and are turned off.  Things are beginning to turn around and we’ve been artificially anemic for far too long.

 

The most likely thing is that our realities will merge in some way, that you know the objective truth about some things, and I know it about other things, and we will realize where we were wrong and where we were right and merge together. I hope this is the case, as this way does not require anyone to be dragged kicking and screaming into a terrifying new reality

They are diametrically opposed.  Socialism and Republic do not mix.  The Constitution cannot survive or even exist in a Socialist environment.  It isn’t going to be a merge.  It will be political ethnic cleansing until a certain point and then with what is left is absorbed.  It’s not going to be pretty.

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RavenHawk
18 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

False hope maybe?  It could turn nasty before it turns around.  I meant it when I said Trump is an emetic. It won't be pretty.

As in the manner of drawing poison from the body.

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Farmer77
3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Enough to know he has dealings across the globe.

Financed with Russian money 

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Why would someone with only a $1 trillion GDP float money to a foreigner during a time of a recession? 

Its called the long game. You invest resources in assets in the hopes they pay off down the road. 

 

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skliss
10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You really don't have to be rude to tell somebody to stop messing with you.  But if you can't stand up for yourself to somebody's face, you get run over.

True, but some of the things they were calling for Trump to do and say were downright rude and ridiculous. It's easy to be an armchair warrior when you are happily at home spouting bravado behind a microphone, it's another to look a heard of state in the eye and say them.

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Farmer77
2 minutes ago, skliss said:

True, but some of the things they were calling for Trump to do and say were downright rude and ridiculous. It's easy to be an armchair warrior when you are happily at home spouting bravado behind a microphone, it's another to look a heard of state in the eye and say them.

Yet it's not hard , at all , for Trump to insult any other head of state.  In fact before Helsinki stole the headlines Trump doing exactly that was the major headline of the week. 

Curious.....

 

 

Edited by Farmer77

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skliss
25 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Yet it's not hard , at all , for Trump to insult any other head of state.  In fact before Helsinki stole the headlines Trump doing exactly that was the major headline of the week. 

Curious.....

 

 

Yes, I agree that he sometimes does that. Often it's in response to something already addressed to him. In this instance, though, I just think it would be funny to see how the big talkers would act if confronted with Putin face to face. I bet it would be an entirely different story. Allow me to be amused by the thought. lol

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, skliss said:

Yes, I agree that he sometimes does that. Often it's in response to something already addressed to him. In this instance, though, I just think it would be funny to see how the big talkers would act if confronted with Putin face to face. I bet it would be an entirely different story. Allow me to be amused by the thought. lol

I really want to talk about how tough and brave I would be but Putin is a bad mo fo :lol:

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, skliss said:

True, but some of the things they were calling for Trump to do and say were downright rude and ridiculous. It's easy to be an armchair warrior when you are happily at home spouting bravado behind a microphone, it's another to look a heard of state in the eye and say them.

That is true.  Some of us doubters extend that logic to our current White House resident, sort of like insulting Theresa May in a newspaper interview one day and sucking up to her on stage the next day and claiming the interview was fake news.  Not a crime, just not very brave.

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Gromdor
3 hours ago, skliss said:

True, but some of the things they were calling for Trump to do and say were downright rude and ridiculous. It's easy to be an armchair warrior when you are happily at home spouting bravado behind a microphone, it's another to look a heard of state in the eye and say them.

Journalists that do that to Putin seem to have a habit of accidentally drinking radioactive substances or meeting other unfortunate circumstances ending in dirt naps. https://www.npr.org/2018/04/21/604497554/why-do-russian-journalists-keep-falling

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RavenHawk
6 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Financed with Russian money

Well, since the assets he was liquidating are in Russia, the money he gets must be Russian.  I doubt it is Tahitian.  From what other places was he liquidating assets from?  He couldn’t have been the only one at that time.  What’s the full story?

 

Its called the long game. You invest resources in assets in the hopes they pay off down the road. 

The long game eh?  2008 is really a very long game.  It would require covering all the bases.  You wouldn’t go out and support just one guy in 2008.  How many of the Forbes 400 do you think it would take to secure the long game?  Like I said, it would take more than the $1 trillion GDP of Russia.  Given that, it would be more efficient to go after the top billionaires, like Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg, Buffett, Koch brothers, etc.

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Einsteinium
12 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Dude ive only ever voted for one democrat in my life and that was Mccains most recent opponent - hell I dont even know her name I was just voting against the war machine. 

My side is America not any particular party. 

You're not wrong about all of the things you said about the DNC, that however shouldn't blind you from seeing the truth about the RNC. 

This is what I don't get and you called it out perfectly in your last sentence. If you call out Trump, and Trump supporters immediately try to deflect to the democrats. I KNOW that the democrats have skeletons in their closet, I am not a fan of the DNC by any means. But the sins of the DNC do not justify the current sins of the RNC and we would be wise to focus on the party in power as they are the ones who currently are screwing us over.

Edited by Einsteinium
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Einsteinium
11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Well now, he may not have to.  As I did say, this was the ultimate act of statesmanship on Trump’s part.  Look, Putin was coming into this summit fully expecting Trump to read him the riot act and then he would diplomatically give the West the finger.  That’s SOP.  But Trump didn’t do that.  Putin is on camera saying he (Russia) did not interfere in the elections.  Putin is in a tight spot, in that he’ll have to insure there’s not even a hint of interfering in the midterms.  There is more of a chance that the DNC will resort to their usual ballot box stuffing antics.

I don't think this is true. For one thing, Putin has ALREADY been caught meddling in the midterm elections. We already know that the GRU has tried to hack into 3 different democratic senators email accounts, and that is just what we know about. Also, DNC ballot box stuffing antics? What are you talking about with that? The only place I have heard of that BS is from far right propaganda and it has been shown to be fake news on numerous occasions. Also, Putin WANTED Trump to be president, I don't think Putin was 'fully expecting Trump to read him the riot act", in fact I think Putin already knew that Trump was NOT going to come down hard on him. Putin, if anything, is emboldened by this summit to interfere in the midterms.

 

11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

I think it is time for a bit of clarification.  “Authoritarian” is doing double duty.  In general, all Presidents run the government as an Authoritarian.  That’s the way the government is run.  Authoritarianism as a flavor of Socialism is in reference to how Obama weaponized the government against the people.  You don’t need historians to tell you that.  We have eyes and can see for ourselves.  Trump is also dealing with Obama holdovers in the bureaucracy

Obama weaponized the govt against the people eh? Wow where the hell do you get your news from? And you think the MSM is 'fake news' what a joke.

 

11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Not from all appearances.  It’s a distraction put in your mind by the Progressives and MSM.  I’m surprised the MSM didn’t pick Gjorge Ivanov of Macedonia having leverage?  (yes, that’ smore sarcasm)

If this is true, then this is surprising to me. I watched the Summit first before listening to any of the MSM commentary and I came to basically the same conclusions that they did. I don't know why you have such rose colored glasses on when it comes to Trump. The man is a proven liar, cheater, and manipulator. Hardly the kind of man who has historically  made for a good leader generally, let alone a good president.

 

11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

What is damaging is Progressives trying to separate the two theories.  Nothing is more disingenuous to the intellect than to separate them.  We might as well set up our own version of Lysenkoism.    Evolution is no more provable than Creationism.  Creationism isn’t the science part anyway.  Genesis 1:1 is just a top level narrative of Evolution.  Science and Religion are not enemies.  Creationism does not threaten the scientific method.  Scientifically, we really don’t know enough about Evolution.  It is just an idea.  It is very intuitive and we have a long way to go to understand it.  To date, it is not provable.  The intermediate fossil record does not support it.  That doesn’t mean it is invalid, we just don’t fully understand it.  We shouldn’t think we do as if it was infallible.  And that doesn’t mean that we stop trying to understand it.  The vast majority of life has evolved in the last 540 million years.  The current understanding of evolution cannot account for this explosion.  We’re going to find out that Evolution is an innate intelligence that is directed.  It’s not random chaos as originally thought.  It can’t be.

I don't want to get into this, but as one who is educated in science and works in a supporting field, I have to point out that you are wrong. Evolution is literally just as solid of a theory as the theory of electromagnetism which has led to light bulbs, computers, and basically the entire modern world. There are details we have yet to work out, but the evidence for the base theory is overwhelming. The fact that you think Evolution is no more provable than creationism is very telling.

 

11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Occam’s Razor?  Let’s see…Mueller’s witch hunt has come up with nothing.  Various members of the Deep State are in trouble and that is only the tip of the iceberg.  The progressives are self-destructing, i.e. “Impeach 45”.  The MSM is so negative, it’s become a joke.  It’s fun watching them fall all over themselves with the parroted anti-Trump phrase-of-the-day.  People see that and are turned off.  Things are beginning to turn around and we’ve been artificially anemic for far too long.

I am against socialism and the fact that you think anyone who opposes Trump must be a socialist is very telling that the right wing propaganda must be working its course. Mueller's witch hunt has come up with  nothing!?!?! WTF!? He has numerous indictments, numerous guilty pleas! He has uncovered a ton of iillegal activity by members of Trumps inner circle related to Russia and collusion and you call that nothing? Really? And Mueller has only been at this for what, a little over a year now?

You want to know what a real witch hunt nothing bull**** investigation looks like? Look no further than the Benghazi investigation led by Trey Gowdy. How many years did that drag on for? How many indictments? ZERO. How many guilty pleas? ZERO, when did he choose to end that investigation? Conveniently right after the election. Want to talk about a witch hunt look no further than this piece of trash investigation.

 

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Opus Magnus

It would only make sense that other countries would try to influence elections. It wouldn't be surpising if next thing they are going to be trying to rip what they got elected down to cause more confusion.

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Einsteinium
15 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

It would only make sense that other countries would try to influence elections. It wouldn't be surpising if next thing they are going to be trying to rip what they got elected down to cause more confusion.

I don't think Putin wants to just sit back and watch the world burn. By helping Trump win, he must have been wanting to get something from it strategically.

My guess is that he was not expecting anything specific, as a specific quid pro quo would be too obvious. I think he just wants the US to become a bit more like Russia, a president who morally equivocates Russia and the US will erode the moral high ground that the West has historically had. Over time Putin is hoping this will lead to us just accepting his annexation of Crimea, and indeed future annexations he has in mind.

A useful idiot in the white house who knows very little about world history would go a long ways towards accomplishing this. And better yet if you have some dirt on him to keep him from completely flipping against you.

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DarkHunter

So far under Trump's presidency Ukraine has received javelin anti-tank missiles, Trump has approved a further $200 million dollars worth of military aid to Ukraine which includes weapons as of July 20, the US navy performing a joint naval exercise with the Ukrainian navy, and currently US troops are stationed in western Ukraine helping to train and reform the Ukrainian army yet we are to believe Trump is secretly helping Russia. 

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RavenHawk
2 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So far under Trump's presidency Ukraine has received javelin anti-tank missiles, Trump has approved a further $200 million dollars worth of military aid to Ukraine which includes weapons as of July 20, the US navy performing a joint naval exercise with the Ukrainian navy, and currently US troops are stationed in western Ukraine helping to train and reform the Ukrainian army yet we are to believe Trump is secretly helping Russia. 

Don’t you know, that’s the beauty of the plan.  Before you know it, Trump will be selling 50% of our uranium stock to Putin and shipping $200 billion to Tehran.

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Einsteinium
10 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So far under Trump's presidency Ukraine has received javelin anti-tank missiles, Trump has approved a further $200 million dollars worth of military aid to Ukraine which includes weapons as of July 20, the US navy performing a joint naval exercise with the Ukrainian navy, and currently US troops are stationed in western Ukraine helping to train and reform the Ukrainian army yet we are to believe Trump is secretly helping Russia. 

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-stopped-helping-mueller-probe-after-trump-administration-gave-it-908322

Interesting times we live in for sure. Coincidence? Maybe.

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