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LightAngel

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick Resigns

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GlitterRose
On 7/30/2018 at 12:51 AM, LightAngel said:

 

There are so many victims because the church covered up sexual abuse!

 

 

The Church sees this as just another sin that they can absolve.

They are about saving souls, not lives, and they have tried desperately to cover this up.

They have not been very good at honoring the laws of whatever land they're in.

The result has been actual policy that enables pedophiles.

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GlitterRose
On 7/29/2018 at 1:07 AM, Hammerclaw said:

One could wish, but according to the tenets of Catholicism, once an Christian, always a Christian and Christians don't go to Hell--whatever that is. Even the excommunicated are still considered Christians. Makes no sense to me, but religion isn't especially renown in the sense department.   

They certainly didn't tell us that in Catholic school. 

There was a lot of fear-mongering and guilt pushing. 

Of course, now I realize all those years that this kind of thing was going on. 

Edited by GlitterRose
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Hammerclaw
26 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

They certainly didn't tell us that in Catholic school. 

There was a lot of fear-mongering and guilt pushing. 

Of course, now I realize all those years that this kind of thing was going on. 

Ask ten Catholic clergy and you'll get ten different takes on it --almost as confusing as Protestantism. The Pope said it, himself. Who do you believe? Apparently, that's a multiple choice question. 

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Hammerclaw
39 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

The Church sees this as just another sin that they can absolve.

They are about saving souls, not lives, and they have tried desperately to cover this up.

They have not been very good at honoring the laws of whatever land they're in.

The result has been actual policy that enables pedophiles.

If these sorts go to Heaven--who qualifies for Hell?

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GlitterRose
17 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Ask ten Catholic clergy and you'll get ten different takes on it --almost as confusing as Protestantism. The Pope said it, himself. Who do you believe? Apparently, that's a multiple choice question. 

Every Pope says something different, too. 

And somehow, they're all "infallible."

I'm not sure how they manage that.

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GlitterRose
12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

If these sorts go to Heaven--who qualifies for Hell?

And why should particular men in dresses have the supernatural power to absolve folks of sins...and they can't just ask God?

It's not like we're finding out that they're holier-than-thou.

Edited by GlitterRose

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GlitterRose

I think if people are truly penitent, then God would know it.

God wouldn't need special human intermediaries. 

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GlitterRose

A huge part of the problem is how the Church sets the clergy apart from the congregation.

They elevate them as having supernatural qualities, and as much as Catholics don't like to admit it...they are somewhat idolized. 

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Guyver

The Catholics believe in a place called Purgatory which is not heaven or hell.  So, if they have been sinful and not paid adequate penance for it, they go there until someone prays them out or they work their penance and work their way back into Gods graces and are allowed to enter heaven.

So I think this is how they deal with people who would otherwise be going to hell, but are confirmed Catholics.

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eight bits

With Catholic religious questions, it helps to stick to the catechism:

This version has handy search features, and I love it that it's hosted in a place called Picayune:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

If you prefer it straight from the horse's mouth, then here's the linked index on the Vatican site:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Is it more reliable than Wikipedia? Prob'ly. For one thing, fewer people get to edit it (as the First Frank recently did for capital punishment). That's gotta be a plus.

 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

And why should particular men in dresses have the supernatural power to absolve folks of sins...and they can't just ask God?

It's not like we're finding out that they're holier-than-thou.

Precisely the point Calvinism addressed.

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, DieChecker said:


From the link:

Note: "All who die in God's grace and friendship", from my quick reading does not include those who have not been absolved (in confession) of a deadly/mortal sin. That is why they are called Deadly/Mortal sins. And why those who are dying often are desperate for a Priest to be found before they die.

So, you think God sends people to Hell because their Priest spent too long at Kelly's Tavern and couldn't be located? At any rate, the Pope has the final say and he's already spoken on the subject. Have you heard the joke about the Protestant, the Jew and the Buddhist who were discussing Catholicism? Me neither, but I'll see if I can make one up.

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Golden Duck
4 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

So much for penance.

Guilty until proven otherwise huh?

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GlitterRose
1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Guilty until proven otherwise huh?

See post I made where I said of course he should go to court and it should be proven.

If he's innocent, why did he resign? Why did the Pope accept the resignation and order him into seclusion?

Oh lookey here...

A prominent Roman Catholic voice in international and public policy, Cardinal McCarrick was first removed from public ministry on June 20, after a church panel substantiated allegations that he had sexually abused a teenage altar boy 47 years ago while serving as a priest in New York.

Edited by GlitterRose

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, GlitterRose said:

See post I made where I said of course he should go to court and it should be proven.

If he's innocent, why did he resign? Why did the Pope accept the resignation and order him into seclusion?

Oh lookey here...

A prominent Roman Catholic voice in international and public policy, Cardinal McCarrick was first removed from public ministry on June 20, after a church panel substantiated allegations that he had sexually abused a teenage altar boy 47 years ago while serving as a priest in New York.

The same journalist says the Pope accepted the resignation.

Why don't the victims go to the police? The Bible still says the law of land is to be obeyed. 

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DieChecker
16 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, you think God sends people to Hell because their Priest spent too long at Kelly's Tavern and couldn't be located? At any rate, the Pope has the final say and he's already spoken on the subject. Have you heard the joke about the Protestant, the Jew and the Buddhist who were discussing Catholicism? Me neither, but I'll see if I can make one up.

If the Pope passed  away tomorrow, would it still stand? Or, would the catechism be the fall back?

From eight bits link:

Quote

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Are you perhaps referring to the story that the Pope said there was no Hell? This is Fake News. Of course he believes in Hell and the Enemy.

https://religionnews.com/2018/04/02/pope-francis-and-hell/

Quote

So why the confusion about Francis and hell?

The confusion came from Eugenio Scalfari, the 93-year-old co-founder and former editor of La Repubblica, an Italian daily, who in a March 28 story claims the pope told him “Hell does not exist.”

This is not the first time Scalfari has caused a sensation by reporting his conversations with the pope. Scalfari is an atheist friend with whom the pope enjoys talking. Scalfari presents detailed quotations of the pope despite the fact he does not record their conversations or even take notes. Every reporter in Rome knows that you cannot take Scalfari’s reports seriously, but his stories are just too sensational to be ignored.

 

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GlitterRose
13 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

The same journalist says the Pope accepted the resignation.

Why don't the victims go to the police? The Bible still says the law of land is to be obeyed. 

Yes, and why did he? Because the accusations were substantiated.

This happened 47 years ago.

It was a different time, and people weren't as open about this kind of stuff.

Priests were beyond reproach. 

It's only fairly recently that the public started finding out about the widespread abuse. 

And it's well-known now that the Church did lots of things to try and cover it up. 

They outline some of that in the article in reference to this particular Cardinal. 

Are you actually thinking that there was no abuse in the Church? 

Are ya blaming the victims?

We know that victims actually went to police and the police were connected to the Church. 

Have you seen the story about Boston?

The bible does say that, but that's not what happened.

Even in this story, it seems it's the Vatican who will judge him. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Boston

Edited by GlitterRose

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Golden Duck
17 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

Yes, and why did he? Because the accusations were substantiated.

This happened 47 years ago.

It was a different time, and people weren't as open about this kind of stuff.

Priests were beyond reproach. 

It's only fairly recently that the public started finding out about the widespread abuse. 

And it's well-known now that the Church did lots of things to try and cover it up. 

They outline some of that in the article in reference to this particular Cardinal. 

Are you actually thinking that there was no abuse in the Church? 

Are ya blaming the victims?

We know that victims actually went to police and the police were connected to the Church. 

Have you seen the story about Boston?

The bible does say that, but that's not what happened.

Even in this story, it seems it's the Vatican who will judge him. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Boston

First of all why the need for your rhetorical questions? What are you trying to insinuate?

If the police were connected with the Church, then the police were corrupt-just like Victorian police have been proven.

Allegations aren't substantiation. When you begin to deviate from Blackstone things start to get dangerous for society. 

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GlitterRose
1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

First of all why the need for your rhetorical questions? What are you trying to insinuate?

If the police were connected with the Church, then the police were corrupt-just like Victorian police have been proven.

Allegations aren't substantiation. When you begin to deviate from Blackstone things start to get dangerous for society. 

I'm not sure what your purpose is or what you're trying to insinuate.

The Church has a looooooong history of covering up abuse. 

The Church is known to have had a systematic approach to handling abuse. 

They pressured victims and law enforcement to keep it quiet.

So it's not a matter of victims not reporting it. 

“Several diocesan administrators, including the bishops, often dissuaded victims from reporting abuse to police, pressured law enforcement to terminate or avoid an investigation, or conducted their own deficient, biased investigation without reporting crimes against children to the proper authorities,” the report says.

https://www.apnews.com/45b952bc3c2446b48de421f931c651df

There is vast evidence of a long running conspiracy in the Catholic Church to cover up abuse.

There are a large number of accusations against this particular Cardinal, and even the Church admits that they have been substantiated. 

So what's your game here? You seem to have one.

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GlitterRose

The Church is very powerful and influential. Cardinals and Bishops were very powerful and influential.

They wielded that power and influence to keep their abusing priests from being investigated. 

Naturally, the average family with a child who had been abused did not have that same kind of power and influence.

 

Edited by GlitterRose
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Golden Duck
4 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

I'm not sure what your purpose is or what you're trying to insinuate.

The Church has a looooooong history of covering up abuse. 

The Church is known to have had a systematic approach to handling abuse. 

They pressured victims and law enforcement to keep it quiet.

So it's not a matter of victims not reporting it. 

“Several diocesan administrators, including the bishops, often dissuaded victims from reporting abuse to police, pressured law enforcement to terminate or avoid an investigation, or conducted their own deficient, biased investigation without reporting crimes against children to the proper authorities,” the report says.

https://www.apnews.com/45b952bc3c2446b48de421f931c651df

There is vast evidence of a long running conspiracy in the Catholic Church to cover up abuse.

There are a large number of accusations against this particular Cardinal, and even the Church admits that they have been substantiated. 

So what's your game here? You seem to have one.

No game. On one hand you evacuate the trial on the other an accusation is enough. 

There was a Royal Commission on Institutional Child Abuse, you're not raising anything new. 

You do know Blackstone's Formulation?

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GlitterRose
2 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

No game. On one hand you evacuate the trial on the other an accusation is enough. 

There was a Royal Commission on Institutional Child Abuse, you're not raising anything new. 

You do know Blackstone's Formulation?

Evacuate what trial?

He's not even going to stand trial anywhere else besides in the Vatican.

He'll never see the inside of a jail cell. 

The worse that will probably happen to him is that he will be laicized. 

 

Edited by GlitterRose
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GlitterRose

What you seem to be totally ignoring is that the Church says they have actually substantiated the abuse allegations.

You just keep glossing over that fact, and acting like he could still be entirely innocent, or that at least everyone should assume he is.

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Golden Duck
13 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

Evacuate what trial?

That was intended to be "advocate a trial".

An allegation is something that has yet to be substantiated. 

And why not go to the police today?

 

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GlitterRose
1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

That was intended to be "advocate a trial".

An allegation is something that has yet to be substantiated. 

And why not go to the police today?

 

Except when it has.

The Church says it has substantiated the allegations. 

He's not even in the country. 

I'm not sure what good that's gonna do at this point.

It's not like the Vatican is gonna send him over so that the state can actually put him through a real trial. 

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