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LightAngel

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick Resigns

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GlitterRose

So he's gonna end up getting away with it...again.

There will be no real justice.

And that's what people are so angry about.

 

 

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GlitterRose

The Church has already taken some actions because they have substantiated the allegations.

The Pope has accepted his resignation, he has been stripped of his highest honor, and he has had to step down from Cardinal functions. 

He remains a priest pending the Vatican trial, which seems to be about what to do with him now that everyone knows. 

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Golden Duck
22 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

Except when it has.

The Church says it has substantiated the allegations. 

He's not even in the country. 

I'm not sure what good that's gonna do at this point.

It's not like the Vatican is gonna send him over so that the state can actually put him through a real trial. 

Oh really?  Why not? 

Your last paragraph couldn't be more wrong.

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GlitterRose
Just now, Golden Duck said:

Oh really?  Why not? 

Your last paragraph couldn't be more wrong.

We'll see, won't we?

I never said that there shouldn't be a trial.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. 

But like everyone else who is sick of seeing priests getting away with abuse, I'd like to see some real justice done.

A Vatican trial...even when they already admit that allegations have been substantiated...isn't going to dish out real justice. 

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GlitterRose

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GlitterRose

The Cardinal is 88 years old.

They've been shuffling him around and covering up for him his whole career.

All they have to do now is draw this out until he dies, and he never faces actual criminal charges. 

They're very practiced at this.

Edited by GlitterRose
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Golden Duck
6 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

We'll see, won't we?

I never said that there shouldn't be a trial.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. 

But like everyone else who is sick of seeing priests getting away with abuse, I'd like to see some real justice done.

A Vatican trial...even when they already admit that allegations have been substantiated...isn't going to dish out real justice. 

You are aware the Vatican's Treasurer was charged with sexual assault and returned to his home country to face trial? There was no need for extradition. There's the precedent.  That's where I get the idea. 

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GlitterRose
2 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

You are aware the Vatican's Treasurer was charged with sexual assault and returned to his home country to face trial? There was no need for extradition. There's the precedent.  That's where I get the idea. 

Yes, once in a great while, someone gets a win.

Not if the Church can do anything about it, though. 

And this Cardinal is 88 years old. 

They're just moving toward having the first Vatican trial now.

After that, then there's the possibility of a Vatican criminal trial.

If he lives that long...which he probably won't. 

All likelihood points to this being yet another instance of a known Church pedophile never facing any criminal charges. 

And it's a small wonder people are outraged about it.

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GlitterRose

It's also no small wonder that a lot of Catholic pews are empty, and they're having to advertise on TV to try and get people back to the Church.

I was raised Catholic, but I would never put a red cent in any of their collection baskets.

I believe it would go to protect these pedophiles.

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Hammerclaw
9 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

It's also no small wonder that a lot of Catholic pews are empty, and they're having to advertise on TV to try and get people back to the Church.

I was raised Catholic, but I would never put a red cent in any of their collection baskets.

I believe it would go to protect these pedophiles.

Celibacy has always been the Achilles Heel of Catholicism. Avoiding the perception of sin in it's clergy has only led to greater sins.

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GlitterRose
2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Celibacy has always been the Achilles Heel of Catholicism. Avoiding the perception of sin in it's clergy has only led to greater sins.

It's a combination of things.

Pedophiles would naturally seek out positions of power where they would have access to children.

Pair that with how the Church sets their clergy above the congregation, and how they want to hide bad things about the Church, with the way they keep priests from having normal relationships...and this is what you get.

Then they are so rich and powerful that they can put pressure on anyone who says anything about it or tries to do anything about it. 

Add to that they have their own independent state and all the issues that law enforcement has trying to access information and the actual accused pedophiles.

And you have one giant cluster for which the Church is responsible.

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Hammerclaw
43 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

It's a combination of things.

Pedophiles would naturally seek out positions of power where they would have access to children.

Pair that with how the Church sets their clergy above the congregation, and how they want to hide bad things about the Church, with the way they keep priests from having normal relationships...and this is what you get.

Then they are so rich and powerful that they can put pressure on anyone who says anything about it or tries to do anything about it. 

Add to that they have their own independent state and all the issues that law enforcement has trying to access information and the actual accused pedophiles.

And you have one giant cluster for which the Church is responsible.

All of the above and sexual repression of natural desires is, indeed, a recipe for disaster. It's a lot like prison.

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Golden Duck

 

5 hours ago, GlitterRose said:
6 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

...

I never said that there shouldn't be a trial.

...

 

But you say he is already guilty. 

The OP says the allegations are credible; ie, not frivolous or vexatious. For all intents and purposes he is under arrest pending a trial.

My first post in this thread was a reminder that McCarrick is still entitled to the presumption of innocence. Furthermore, it's dangerous for a society to forget Blackstone's principle.

Edited by Golden Duck
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Golden Duck
6 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

It's also no small wonder that a lot of Catholic pews are empty, and they're having to advertise on TV to try and get people back to the Church.

I was raised Catholic, but I would never put a red cent in any of their collection baskets.

I believe it would go to protect these pedophiles.

With mandatory reporting I'm not sure how a cover-up can happen and only one person be charged. 

There would have to be many people aware of an act in these cases.

Edited by Golden Duck
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LightAngel
19 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

So he's gonna end up getting away with it...again.

There will be no real justice.

And that's what people are so angry about.

 

 

 

So true.....

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GlitterRose
13 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

 

But you say he is already guilty. 

The OP says the allegations are credible; ie, not frivolous or vexatious. For all intents and purposes he is under arrest pending a trial.

My first post in this thread was a reminder that McCarrick is still entitled to the presumption of innocence. Furthermore, it's dangerous for a society to forget Blackstone's principle.

The Church says they have already substantiated the allegations. 

They've already taken actions based on this. 

Of course, he should have his day in court...a real court. 

I do not presume he is innocent, because they have substantiated the allegations. 

You can presume he's innocent. Go right ahead. 

You keep touting Blackstone's principle when the allegations have been substantiated.

There's a difference between allegations and allegations that have been substantiated.

He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me when the allegations have been substantiated. 

It's strange that you think the Church will find him innocent when it's their own trial and they have stated they have already substantiated the allegations.

There's really no way they could find him innocent at this point. 

The trial is about what to do with him now that they have substantiated the allegations.

Edited by GlitterRose

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GlitterRose
12 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

With mandatory reporting I'm not sure how a cover-up can happen and only one person be charged. 

There would have to be many people aware of an act in these cases.

Many places are just now instituting laws that would require the Church to report abuse. 

Who would have thought that they wouldn't? But they didn't. 

And naturally, the Church continues to fight it tooth and nail.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics/catholic-church-group-fights-colorado-bill-to-reform-system-of-reporting-child-abuse

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GlitterRose
GlitterRose
13 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

With mandatory reporting I'm not sure how a cover-up can happen and only one person be charged. 

There would have to be many people aware of an act in these cases.

If you're not sure how a cover-up can happen and how the Vatican gets away with stuff, then you don't really know very much about this at all. 

I'd say read up then.

Edited by GlitterRose

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Golden Duck
2 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

The Church says they have already substantiated the allegations. 

They've already taken actions based on this. 

Of course, he should have his day in court...a real court. 

I do not presume he is innocent, because they have substantiated the allegations. 

You can presume he's innocent. Go right ahead. 

You keep touting Blackstone's principle when the allegations have been substantiated.

There's a difference between allegations and allegations that have been substantiated.

He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me when the allegations have been substantiated. 

It's strange that you think the Church will find him innocent when it's their own trial and they have stated they have already substantiated the allegations.

There's really no way they could find him innocent at this point. 

The trial is about what to do with him now that they have substantiated the allegations.

Allegations by definition aren't substantiated. The articles actually say the allegations are credible

Quote

...

Pope Francis directed Cardinal McCarrick to observe "a life of prayer and penance until the accusations made against him are examined in a regular canonical trial."

The Pope also imposed on Cardinal McCarrick "the obligation to remain in a house yet to be indicated to him".

...

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2018-07/pope-francis-cardinal-mccarrick-resignation.html

I think this is what you mean

Quote

...it’s a safe bet that such dramatic action would not have been taken if there were much serious doubt about the eventual verdict. It’s not quite a finding of guilt, but it’s a strong suggestion that such a finding isn’t that far away.

...

https://cruxnow.com/news-analysis/2018/07/29/no-question-pope-francis-made-history-saturday-on-mccarrick/

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Noxasa
On 8/4/2018 at 8:27 AM, DieChecker said:

Please... Point me at a web site then so that I might learn. Otherwise why should I believe that you know something that I didn't find online when looking into it (given... quickly) last night?

The problem is that someone can't just "jump into" a deep theological concept and expect to understand it, even if it's on a website.  Often times the website is just misunderstood or in some cases the website is just flat wrong or the concept is simplified for mass consumption.

Quote

Yeah, I don't think I disagreed with that. Where he goes/suffers depends on if he actually is non-repentant, and if he was absolved in confession, or not.

Not really "and if he was absolved in confession, or not." 

To a Catholic, confession and penance is the final destination of a repentant heart and by the time a truly repentant Catholic get's to confession and penance they're already in God's grace, they're just continuing to act upon that grace via their free will through the sacrament passed down by Christ which heals and strengthens them in their relationship with God.  The confession and penance just completes that which has already happened in the heart.  If a Catholic, who's conscience is in a truly repentant state, gets in a car accident on the way to the sacrament of penance, it is not believed that they would go to hell because they didn't get to confession in time before they died.  These are the types of theological concepts that even many Catholics don't even understand.  Which is why it's hard to direct you to a website that can explain it properly when many times websites will simplify these concepts to make them easier to understand for the layman.  Even the Catholic Church's teachings are simplified in many ways to make these concepts and practices easier for the layman to understand.  But the more detailed theological understandings are available for those that are interested in the sometimes difficult study.  This is why I typically do not discuss these concepts with people unless I know what their level of theological understanding of the Catholic faith is.

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Noxasa
On 8/4/2018 at 10:39 AM, GlitterRose said:

Every Pope says something different, too. 

And somehow, they're all "infallible."

I'm not sure how they manage that.

No, they're not "infallible."  You don't understand the concept ex cathedra infallibility which doesn't mean the Pope is infallible in all that he says or does.  LOL.

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Podo
On 8/4/2018 at 9:39 AM, GlitterRose said:

The Vatican should pay restitution. 

Absolutely it should.

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Podo
On 8/3/2018 at 7:05 PM, LightAngel said:

 

The Catholic Church has for years protected these abusers, so he isn't the only one who needs to pay.

Not just him. The whole organisation needs to be thrown out as a relic of a less enlightened age.

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DieChecker
On 8/5/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hammerclaw said:

Celibacy has always been the Achilles Heel of Catholicism. Avoiding the perception of sin in it's clergy has only led to greater sins.

I'd agree with that....

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