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PsiSeeker

Perfection and the closed mind.

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PsiSeeker

Once one's mind is made up about a thing it becomes perfect in one's world view and one's mind tends to close.  I feel this is a hindrance on captivating dialogue, cutting short one's opportunity to see what reasoning developed more subtle notions of the topic at hand.  Is it better to take a side and be right or to take none and further one's knack of reasoning?  "Agreeing" with people, in this way of thinking, is taking sides.  It is not one's own reason that derived conclusion.  And said conclusion is not necessarily complete, even though seeming as such.

 

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ChrLzs

Is the world only black and white or is it a bazilion shades and colours?  Does your observation not apply to both sides, and can an open mind be *too* open?

Me, I have an evidence-based approach, and I like to think widely about all the known explanations/issues that might apply.  If anyone makes a claim about something very very special and perhaps unheard of by science, then frankly, the evidence of same needs to be better than a one off youtube video or a cool story.

And that all seems to work very well for me.

What's your approach, and why not give a really good example that shows why you posted the observation, so we can better understand what improvements you are suggesting...?

Edited by ChrLzs
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DebDandelion
1 hour ago, PsiSeeker said:

Once one's mind is made up about a thing it becomes perfect in one's world view and one's mind tends to close. (I don't believe this. It is a choice to not take anything else into consideration. And sometimes the final acceptance isn't perfect, it is simply accepting that this is what it is)  I feel this is a hindrance on captivating dialogue, cutting short one's opportunity to see what reasoning developed more subtle notions of the topic at hand.  (Just because i choose not to listen further doesn't mean i am happy with the scenario all it means is that I have accepted this as the best one...doesn't mean it is then perfect one...and just because I don't entertain more info might be cause the guy /girl giving the info drones on and on and I am tired... Or the info offered doesn't improve the situation. Then of course you have to look at the flipside ....just because you feel the info you are adding to my pool of knowledge is worth something doesn't mean it is...could be your perception.) it better to take a side and be right or to take none and further one's knack of reasoning?  "Agreeing" with people, in this way of thinking, is taking sides. (No it doesn't, just because I agree to your point doesn't mean I accept it as true. Means I understand your reasoning and respect your findings. So I agree to agree with your findings...not accept it as truth)  And I can see your It is not one's own reason that derived conclusion.  And said conclusion is not necessarily complete, even though seeming as such.

 

 

Edited by DebDandelion
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psyche101
2 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

Once one's mind is made up about a thing it becomes perfect in one's world view and one's mind tends to close.  I feel this is a hindrance on captivating dialogue, cutting short one's opportunity to see what reasoning developed more subtle notions of the topic at hand.  Is it better to take a side and be right or to take none and further one's knack of reasoning?  "Agreeing" with people, in this way of thinking, is taking sides.  It is not one's own reason that derived conclusion.  And said conclusion is not necessarily complete, even though seeming as such.

 

Is your mind set on that thought? 

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PsiSeeker
3 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Is the world only black and white or is it a bazilion shades and colours?  Does your observation not apply to both sides, and can an open mind be *too* open?

Me, I have an evidence-based approach, and I like to think widely about all the known explanations/issues that might apply.  If anyone makes a claim about something very very special and perhaps unheard of by science, then frankly, the evidence of same needs to be better than a one off youtube video or a cool story.

And that all seems to work very well for me.

What's your approach, and why not give a really good example that shows why you posted the observation, so we can better understand what improvements you are suggesting...?

This is what I mean.  We are so out to "prove" right or wrong, emperically or otherwise, that we forget about the joy and capacity to build in depth conversations that need not necessarily be based upon perfect conditions.  Virtually all conversations I see between people, with the exception of long form debates on YouTube between various intellectuals, are incredibly surface level and politically correct.  We are afraid to venture into the wilderness of the known and the unknown with our own faculty and tool alongside one another under the requirement of perfection.

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PsiSeeker
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Is your mind set on that thought? 

I am not afraid to say what comes naturally in the face of the inability of those who hear me to suspend judgement and come along for the ride for the fun of it.

I've noticed that it is a natural aspect of communication to make theoretic presupposition appear as fact.  One shouldn't read fact and criticise, one should read possibility/theory and reason.

If one's wish is to go along for the ride of reason with one's fellow then one must suspend one's own inclination, demonstrate understanding, and then use reason as a guide toward mutual understanding.  Providing opinion, observation or by passing comment all contribute to dry dry conversation to my mind. 

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PsiSeeker

Once one's mind is made up about a thing it becomes perfect in one's world view and one's mind tends to close. (I don't believe this. It is a choice to not take anything else into consideration. And sometimes the final acceptance isn't perfect, it is simply accepting that this is what it is

1.  Of course, however the choice to not continue listening to the reason of one's fellow doesn't exempt one from taking up the banner and reasoning in their place, as apposed to passing critique or observation.  If one is so astute at passing judgement then certainly one should be able to reason further along the same lines as one's fellow.

I feel this is a hindrance on captivating dialogue, cutting short one's opportunity to see what reasoning developed more subtle notions of the topic at hand.  (Just because i choose not to listen further doesn't mean i am happy with the scenario all it means is that I have accepted this as the best one...doesn't mean it is then perfect one...and just because I don't entertain more info might be cause the guy /girl giving the info drones on and on and I am tired... Or the info offered doesn't improve the situation. Then of course you have to look at the flipside ....just because you feel the info you are adding to my pool of knowledge is worth something doesn't mean it is...could be your perception.)

Perhaps it is not the intent to add to any pool of knowledge but merely to test the ability of one's fellow human to suspend the concept of "perfection unto reality", that is, one's own observation or critique as the bottom line, and to instead "make reasonable" what one sees as unreasonable.

it better to take a side and be right or to take none and further one's knack of reasoning?  "Agreeing" with people, in this way of thinking, is taking sides. (No it doesn't, just because I agree to your point doesn't mean I accept it as true. Means I understand your reasoning and respect your findings. So I agree to agree with your findings...not accept it as truth)  And I can see your It is not one's own reason that derived conclusion.  And said conclusion is not necessarily complete, even though seeming as such.

Well, this is how it should be, to my mind.  Even if one thinks that what one is hearing should be true.  Even if what one is hearing seems virtuous and righteous and holy.  Even if all of one's sense of reason points at truth.  Far better to suspend judgement of truth and test one's reasoning ability step for step.  In this way one develops one's capacity to engage in conversation of things that actually matter as opposed to being a passing member in a crowd clapping along to something that merely seems appealing.

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ChrLzs
11 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

This is what I mean.  We are so out to "prove" right or wrong, emperically or otherwise, that we forget about the joy and capacity to build in depth conversations that need not necessarily be based upon perfect conditions.  Virtually all conversations I see between people, with the exception of long form debates on YouTube between various intellectuals, are incredibly surface level and politically correct.  We are afraid to venture into the wilderness of the known and the unknown with our own faculty and tool alongside one another under the requirement of perfection.

You could have just said, "No, I won't give an example", and saved me reading all that pointless waffling in the hope of finding something specific or tangible..  So I shall bow out, and you are welcome to claim that you've proved your point I guess, which I shall crudely simplify as:

"I want to have long conversations about stuff for which there are no specifics".

As I have a life and family and friends to talk to, I shall pass on such 'conversations'.  And if you think I'm missing out on something important because of that attitude, well ..... I'll pop back in a week or two to see what, in terms of useful changes has come out of this discussion...

 

BTW, I hope you are aware of the fact that this is "Unexplained Mysteries".  By definition, that sorta implies the idea is to explain mysteries where possible, so as to identify those that remain unknown/unexplainable.  So being "out to 'prove' right or wrong, emperically {sic} or otherwise" is really not a bad thing.  Nor does it mean "that we forget about the joy"...  That removal of *your* joy is, I suspect, your annoyance that someone dares to provide a mundane, scientifically proven explanation.  Me..? I find great joy in the discoveries that are real, and understanding the immense complexities of the Cosmos, nature and human behaviour.

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psyche101
11 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I am not afraid to say what comes naturally in the face of the inability of those who hear me to suspend judgement and come along for the ride for the fun of it.

Fair enough, but there's a lot of people like that, especially here. 

I was more referring to your opening statement :

Quote

Once one's mind is made up about a thing it becomes perfect in one's world view and one's mind tends to close.  

It seems self defeating? If you've made your mind up about others mindsets, isn't that doing exactly what you say closes minds? 

Quote

I've noticed that it is a natural aspect of communication to make theoretic presupposition appear as fact.  One shouldn't read fact and criticise, one should read possibility/theory and reason.

I think Ricky Gervais put it very well when he said:

Screen-Shot-2015-07-05-at-9.32.52-PM-102

I'm all for discussion but in the end opinions bow to facts 

Quote

If one's wish is to go along for the ride of reason with one's fellow then one must suspend one's own inclination, demonstrate understanding, and then use reason as a guide toward mutual understanding.  Providing opinion, observation or by passing comment all contribute to dry dry conversation to my mind. 

There's a line though, where discussion goes from interesting speculation to plain silliness, I feel that line should be respected. 

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Grandpa Greenman

I don't have cable, I don't do the normal TV news outlets.  Fox News, MSNBC, CNN aren't really news they are entertainment.  The only time I look at CNN, is when there is something going on like a volcano going off and I want to know right away.   I use a lot of different sources like NPR, BBC, when all else fails I just google and see what comes up. You just got weed for bias when you do that.  I like doing research.  If you tell me something, if I am not sure about it I'll look it up.  I'll dig until I know the truth, if it can be known.   Alway look in the comments you be amazed at what I find in the comment section. So can I change my mind when facts warrant it.  But I got to see the facts.  

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LightAngel
On 9/8/2018 at 6:45 AM, PsiSeeker said:

Once one's mind is made up about a thing 

 

 

 

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