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edenlog

What is matter?

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edenlog
Posted (edited)

Modern science defines matter as something that has mass and occupies space. But what is this "matter" they are talking about?  Lets take hot and cold for example, something which is hot is said to be hot matter and something that is cold is said to be cold matter, so what is this "matter" they are saying is hot and cold? What is this "thing" that occupies space and has mass?

A rock for example is hard, cold, (or hot) rough or smooth, has certain colors, but these are sensations triggered by various sense receptors, particles are said to be uncertain and cannot be localised hence it seems impossible for us to sense pure matter, or matter that is not hot or cold, or heavy or light, etc. So the various sensations arising from a rock are independent from matter because sensation does not occupy space nor have mass.  Mass is felt by mechanoreceptors and space is inferred via the brain, hence a rocks mass and space  references to what is perceived but not the actual thing perceived, so what is this thing that we call matter?

Saying matter is that which occupies space and has mass is still not saying what this "matter" is.

  What is matter beyond sensation that forms the substratum for sense perception?  What is it that we are sensing? 

Edited by edenlog
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Dejarma
9 minutes ago, edenlog said:

Modern science defines matter as something that has mass and occupies space. But what is this "matter" they are talking about?  Lets take hot and cold for example, something which is hot is said to be hot matter and something that is cold is said to be cold matter, so what is this "matter" they are saying is hot and cold? What is this "thing" that occupies space and has mass?

A rock for example is hard, cold, (or hot) rough or smooth, has certain colors, but these are sensations triggered by various sense receptors, particles are said to be uncertain and cannot be localised hence it seems impossible for us to sense pure matter, or matter that is not hot or cold, or heavy or light, etc. So the various sensations arising from a rock are independent from matter because sensation does not occupy space nor have mass.  Mass is felt by mechanoreceptors and space is inferred via the brain, hence a rocks mass and space  references to what is perceived but not the actual thing perceived, so what is this thing that we call matter?

Saying matter is that which occupies space and has mass is still not saying what this "matter" is.

  What is matter beyond sensation that forms the substratum for sense perception?  What is it that we are sensing? 

we can only go by how we perceive things as human beings= are you suggesting you perceive things differently to others & that's why you feel a need to ask this question?

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sci-nerd

It is THE question.

It is dividing science. I'm on the information side. It makes more sence.

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Dejarma
Just now, sci-nerd said:

It is THE question.

It is dividing science. I'm on the information side. It makes more sence.

what the fek does that mean!?!?

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papageorge1

What is matter?

 

I'll best describe it as 'God's thought'.

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Dejarma
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

What is matter?

 

I'll best describe it as 'God's thought'.

what has god got to do with it?? we're talking science here

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papageorge1
Just now, Dejarma said:

what has god got to do with it?? we're talking science here

Just describing what I think matter is. Why is God outside of science?

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Dejarma
Just now, papageorge1 said:

Just describing what I think matter is. Why is God outside of science?

god does not exist.. that's why

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sci-nerd
Just now, Dejarma said:

god does not exist.. that's why

Concur

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seanjo

Nothing I fine.

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, Dejarma said:

god does not exist.. that's why

I guess that settles it then, :sleepy:

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sci-nerd
9 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

what the fek does that mean!?!?

On the level of particles, it looks like/can seem like nothing is real.

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Dejarma
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

I guess that settles it then, :sleepy:

i take it going by this pathetic reply that you've got no LOGICAL come back?

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Dejarma
2 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

On the level of particles, it looks like/can seem like nothing is real.

oh ok then

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seanjo

Existential bull****... if you didn't exist to touch and feel the rock, the rock still does exist cause it's made of stuff! Your pretentious brain and senses don't make stuff real, Atoms and molecules make stuff real.

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edenlog
3 hours ago, Dejarma said:

we can only go by how we perceive things as human beings= are you suggesting you perceive things differently to others & that's why you feel a need to ask this question?

No.

3 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

It is THE question.

It is dividing science. I'm on the information side. It makes more sence.

But what is this information? By what method can we perceive this beyond sensation? Seems only through its actions can it be inferred to exist

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edenlog
3 hours ago, seanjo said:

Existential bull****... if you didn't exist to touch and feel the rock, the rock still does exist cause it's made of stuff! Your pretentious brain and senses don't make stuff real, Atoms and molecules make stuff real.

First prove atoms exist

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edenlog
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

What is matter?

 

I'll best describe it as 'God's thought'.

But what is this thought?

Edited by edenlog

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Guyver
4 hours ago, edenlog said:

 

Saying matter is that which occupies space and has mass is still not saying what this "matter" is.

  What is matter beyond sensation that forms the substratum for sense perception?  What is it that we are sensing? 

Matter exists in many different forms, like solid, liquid, gas or plasma.  All these forms of matter are different yet have mass and take up space.  We can’t perceive all types of matter with physical senses, and some are deadly to us.  What makes the elements different is their atomic number.  This is the number of protons in an atoms nucleus.  This is the information that you find on the periodic table and it describes or classifies matter in its basic state.

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edenlog
4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Matter exists in many different forms, like solid, liquid, gas or plasma.  All these forms of matter are different yet have mass and take up space.  We can’t perceive all types of matter with physical senses, and some are deadly to us.  What makes the elements different is their atomic number.  This is the number of protons in an atoms nucleus.  This is the information that you find on the periodic table and it describes or classifies matter in its basic state.

No one has ever sensed an atom, matter is not different because of its atomic number.  Liquid water still has the same atoms when it is frozen or as a gas, yet we sense the change in quality but not the actual matter itself.  Subatomic particles are assumed to exist. 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Dejarma said:

oh ok then

It is looking like information theory is becoming more intertwined with matter and our understanding of it.

"Information theory studies the quantification, storage, and communication of information. It was originally proposed by Claude E. Shannon in 1948 to find fundamental limits on signal processing and communication operations such as data compression, in a landmark paper entitled "A Mathematical Theory of Communication"."  By the way Claude Shannon who worked for Bell Labs I believe is an amazing character., a Midwestern kid who grew up to be an amazingly insightful scientist.  He did some great things in the early development of modern electronics among other fields.

It seems that Stephen Hawking has also tied that to black holes and event horizons and how much information black hole can store and how much the universe can store. A quantum bit of information would be a yes / no question about a state of matter; such as charge, spin, or other quantum properties.  I don't think we know what matter is or if that is even a question.  I hope we find out in the next thousand years or so.

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fred_mc
Posted (edited)

Matter is an incredibly dense collection of energy.

Edited by fred_mc

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edenlog
2 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It is looking like information theory is becoming more intertwined with matter and our understanding of it.

"Information theory studies the quantification, storage, and communication of information. It was originally proposed by Claude E. Shannon in 1948 to find fundamental limits on signal processing and communication operations such as data compression, in a landmark paper entitled "A Mathematical Theory of Communication"."  By the way Claude Shannon who worked for Bell Labs I believe is an amazing character., a Midwestern kid who grew up to be an amazingly insightful scientist.  He did some great things in the early development of modern electronics among other fields.

It seems that Stephen Hawking has also tied that to black holes and event horizons and how much information black hole can store and how much the universe can store. A quantum bit of information would be a yes / no question about a state of matter; such as charge, spin, or other quantum properties.  I don't think we know what matter is or if that is even a question.  I hope we find out in the next thousand years or so.

I don't have 1000 years, saying it is information just changes the name and does not solve what it is

1 minute ago, fred_mc said:

Matter is an incredibly dense collection of energy.

Density is a sensation, and energy is also sensed.  Energy is light, heat, etc those are sensations and it is assumed sensation is matter. Some say sensation proves its existence but this still does not tell us what it is.  Nor can we sense subatomic particles, we assume they exist.  I don't like assuming things so I would like to know what matter is beyond sensation, its actual reality

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sepulchrave
22 minutes ago, edenlog said:

No one has ever sensed an atom,

Sure they have.

Unless you mean ``sense'' by ``detect using only one's natural sight, sound, taste, smell, or touch without any assistance from other devices''; in which case I have to ask why you are spending your time staring at a colourful rectangle and occasionally using your fingers to press other, smaller rectangles.

 

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edenlog
1 minute ago, sepulchrave said:

Sure they have.

Unless you mean ``sense'' by ``detect using only one's natural sight, sound, taste, smell, or touch without any assistance from other devices''; in which case I have to ask why you are spending your time staring at a colourful rectangle and occasionally using your fingers to press other, smaller rectangles.

 

You assume sensation is matter, sensation is subjective,  "matter cause sensation" what is "matter?  It is cleary something that causes sensation but sensation does not tell us what it is, it is only a certain degree of perception based on the capacity of sense organs 

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