Trump's 'dirty war' on media draws editorials

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

How about his failed admittance about his tax returns?  A public figure in his position should have no problems in showing the American public he has nothing to hide.  It doesn't appear Americans are interested to know wether their billionaire President has made his fortunes honestly.

Yeah, and we know that the IRS barely pays any attention to people with that amount of income and spend all their time making sure poor people don't fail to file yearly or report everything.  The above post is ignorant beyond belief.  I guarantee anyone with that much money get's audited more than annually. 

[Black Red Devil]

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

Yeah, and we know that the IRS barely pays any attention to people with that amount of income and spend all their time making sure poor people don't fail to file yearly or report everything.  The above post is ignorant beyond belief.  I guarantee anyone with that much money get's audited more than annually. 

As a starting point, normally American’s believe that their tax returns should be private.  They do not think, however, that President Trump should be afforded privacy as related to his tax returns.  In polls, the populace wants disclosure of the president’s tax returns 67%-24% with some polls showing that 64% of Republican’s desire disclosure.  The underpinning of the public wanting to violate President Trump’s privacy over his finances relates back to when he broke a perceived long-standing norm by failing to release his tax returns during his presidential candidacy.

link

Sounds like a lot of ignorant Americans want him to disclose his Returns.  But of course, the smart ones like you don't have any interests in knowing what (murky?) businesses my nations leader may be entangled in. This is the same guy that makes decisions on how much tax you pay or whether their is collusion with a country that you've been at war with (cold war) for the last 70 years.  As long as his rhetoric fits your agenda keep smiling smart guy and don't forget to take those gullibility pills, one in the morning and one at night.

[Black Red Devil]

Also, to add to the above, I'm fully aware a person doesn't have to necessarily disclose their tax info to the public, only to the authorities, but neither does someone have to show their ID to the public, again only to the appropriate authorities.  Yet, I remember Trump was one of the loudest mouthpieces in asking Obama to prove his identity to the nation.  What a hypocrite!

Edited August 17, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[Tatetopa]

10 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

That doesn't add up, doesn't it ? If there was anything dodgy about his Tax returns, then your Inland Revenue would have already called him out on it. (and - indeed - put him in prison  )

There may be nothing at all dodgy about his tax returns in a legal sense.   The speculation is that like Wilbur Mills, he has inflated his real net worth to get on Forbes List.  Why be on Forbes List?  To open the door to easier acquisition of funding.  I would love to be worth $250 million dollars, but if I was telling everybody I was worth $5 Billion, there might be some repercussions.  

[Michelle]

Surely Forbes wouldn't report fake news. 

Where do they get their information?

[Black Red Devil]

55 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Surely Forbes wouldn't report fake news. 

Where do they get their information?

So predictable.

How does this work, if it goes against your principles then it's fake news, if it doesn't then it's an unbiased media outlet worthy of (not) reporting anything about Trump.

BTW, Forbes is mainly a financial media source that does a variety of surveys about financial matters, irrelevant of political affiliations, but Fox News is a biased source so let see what they say....

Fox News Poll: 60% Believe Trump Is Hiding Something in Tax Returns

Oooops

 

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

There may be nothing at all dodgy about his tax returns in a legal sense.   The speculation is that like Wilbur Mills, he has inflated his real net worth to get on Forbes List.  Why be on Forbes List?  To open the door to easier acquisition of funding.  I would love to be worth $250 million dollars, but if I was telling everybody I was worth $5 Billion, there might be some repercussions.  

True, but the main issue here isn't the value of his worth, but where the income is coming from.  It makes a hell of a lot of difference if his Business(es) are making a lot of income and profits from Russian owned investments/raw materials/properties/corporations etc. don't you think?  As the POTUS he has to be above these allegations and all he's doing is playing hide and seek.

[CrimsonKing]

38 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

 

Fox News Poll: 60% Believe Trump Is Hiding Something in Tax Returns

Oooops

 

I'm sure the IRS is looking into it already if he is,the "public" really has no say in the matter...

I'm trying to decluster the whole "Manafort" issue and why people keep bringing that up in the Trump/Russia collusion thread...it's an IRS issue,certainly not Muelers "collusion" search...

[+OverSword]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

As a starting point, normally American’s believe that their tax returns should be private.  They do not think, however, that President Trump should be afforded privacy as related to his tax returns.  In polls, the populace wants disclosure of the president’s tax returns 67%-24% with some polls showing that 64% of Republican’s desire disclosure.  The underpinning of the public wanting to violate President Trump’s privacy over his finances relates back to when he broke a perceived long-standing norm by failing to release his tax returns during his presidential candidacy.

link

Sounds like a lot of ignorant Americans want him to disclose his Returns.  But of course, the smart ones like you don't have any interests in knowing what (murky?) businesses my nations leader may be entangled in. This is the same guy that makes decisions on how much tax you pay or whether their is collusion with a country that you've been at war with (cold war) for the last 70 years.  As long as his rhetoric fits your agenda keep smiling smart guy and don't forget to take those gullibility pills, one in the morning and one at night.

Actually you’re right. I could care less about Trumps tax returns. When you have as much money as he does there is a team at the IRS that is assigned to monitor your income. If Trump is taking advantage of every loophole in the book, as I know he is, that’s because those loopholes exist and he would be a fool not to exploit them. If you don’t like how the system is write your congressman or senators and tell them to introduce legislation to change it. They won’t, because they don’t care what you think or want of course. If you really think you can make as much money as Trump without the IRS having a condo located somewhere up your anus keeping an eye on you, you’re pretty gullible.

[+OverSword]

49 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

So predictable.

How does this work, if it goes against your principles then it's fake news, if it doesn't then it's an unbiased media outlet worthy of (not) reporting anything about Trump.

 

That is the way it usually works. It’s very difficult to present the set of facts that you agree with and change someone’s mind. They usually have a different set of facts. Often both sets are true and are even the same facts but are interpreted to match the paradigm that one agrees with. I read an interesting article about it earlier today. I’m on a phone so I’m not sure how easily I could post it. If I can find it maybe I’ll pm you or post the url as a status update 

[+OverSword]

https://fee.org/articles/the-mistake-you-make-in-every-political-argument/

the article I mentioned above 

[Black Red Devil]

50 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Actually you’re right. I could care less about Trumps tax returns. When you have as much money as he does there is a team at the IRS that is assigned to monitor your income. If Trump is taking advantage of every loophole in the book, as I know he is, that’s because those loopholes exist and he would be a fool not to exploit them. If you don’t like how the system is write your congressman or senators and tell them to introduce legislation to change it. They won’t, because they don’t care what you think or want of course. If you really think you can make as much money as Trump without the IRS having a condo located somewhere up your anus keeping an eye on you, you’re pretty gullible.

I'm not disputing his wealth or if he did take advantage of loopholes in the system.  The argument is whether you feel comfortable with your President having possible business links to Russia.  When you add his campaign Chairman (Manafort) is being investigated for money laundering and had pro Russian interests and the allusion to Russia's interference in the Presidential campaign you would have to be a die-hard Trump supporter to overlook all the "coincidences".  If he's got nothing to hide why not disclose the info?  Instead all he does is rant on about fake news and if you don't see this is his puerile method of defense, the gullible anus is on you buddy.

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, Michelle said:

Where do they get their information?

From research of public records and voluntary interviews with list candidates. Public information is verifiable, private holdings are not.

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm not disputing his wealth or if he did take advantage of loopholes in the system.  The argument is whether you feel comfortable with your President having possible business links to Russia.  When you add his campaign Chairman (Manafort) is being investigated for money laundering and had pro Russian interests and the allusion to Russia's interference in the Presidential campaign you would have to be a die-hard Trump supporter to overlook all the "coincidences".  If he's got nothing to hide why not disclose the info?  Instead all he does is rant on about fake news and if you don't see this is his puerile method of defense, the gullible anus is on you buddy.

That’s all being investigated so why the stress? I’m not a trump supporter, I just don’t identify with the hysteria I see from so many. Your life take a sharp turn for the worse since he took office? Except for all the crying people picking apart and blowing out of proportion every thing he does I can’t tell any difference 

Edited August 18, 2018 by OverSword

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

It makes a hell of a lot of difference if his Business(es) are making a lot of income and profits from Russian owned investments/raw materials/properties/corporations etc. don't you think? 

Yes it does.  After 4 bankruptcies, American Banks rolled up the welcome mat.  Then he went to Deutsche bank  for loans and then Russian financing.  It could be seen as a little compromising if his organization is indebted to Russian Banks that must respond to Putin's directions.  Even more so since he has Chinese Investors in his Indonesian project shortly after saving ZTE.  It is not collusion, it is good old fashion deals. 

 

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

When you have as much money as he does there is a team at the IRS that is assigned to monitor your income.

And this is actually why somebody would want to fake income to be on the Forbes List.  People assume:  He is rich.  He must be smart and a good businessman.  He will be great for the country.

Not necessarily the case.  President Trump cannot apply his own techniques to making America successful because there is nobody big enough in the world to swindle for that kind of money. 

[AnchorSteam]

41 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes it does.  After 4 bankruptcies, American Banks rolled up the welcome mat. 

4 out of close to 100 companies, yeah, ain't that just awful? 

41 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

 

And this is actually why somebody would want to fake income to be on the Forbes List.  People assume:  He is rich.  He must be smart and a good businessman.  He will be great for the country.

Not necessarily the case.  President Trump cannot apply his own techniques to making America successful because there is nobody big enough in the world to swindle for that kind of money. 

Jeez, I guess that's why we are in the midst of a rescission and we have the worst employment numbers ever and ... oh, wait a minute.... that's in opposite land!

How's life living inside the TV with the MSN gang?
And personally, I'm doing better than ever. I know that every single person on the Left will have a terrible story about how miserable their lives are and its 100% Trump's fault, but to say anything else in public would be heresy for them.

Who cares?

[F3SS]

8 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

4 out of close to 100 companies, yeah, ain't that just awful? 

While having this same discussion during the campaign I found that Trump has/had over 520 businesses. 4 of them failing isn’t too bad imo. They present the narrative of these few failures as though Trump himself has personally filed for bankruptcy 4 separate times. We’re going to be hearing these tired old tales until at least January 2025.

[RoofGardener]

17 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

As a starting point, normally American’s believe that their tax returns should be private.  They do not think, however, that President Trump should be afforded privacy as related to his tax returns.  In polls, the populace wants disclosure of the president’s tax returns 67%-24% with some polls showing that 64% of Republican’s desire disclosure.  The underpinning of the public wanting to violate President Trump’s privacy over his finances relates back to when he broke a perceived long-standing norm by failing to release his tax returns during his presidential candidacy.

link

Sounds like a lot of ignorant Americans want him to disclose his Returns.  But of course, the smart ones like you don't have any interests in knowing what (murky?) businesses my nations leader may be entangled in. This is the same guy that makes decisions on how much tax you pay or whether their is collusion with a country that you've been at war with (cold war) for the last 70 years.  As long as his rhetoric fits your agenda keep smiling smart guy and don't forget to take those gullibility pills, one in the morning and one at night.

Interesting poll... considering that only 22% of the 1200 polled individuals declared themselves to be republican. 

(breakdown: Republican: 22%, Democrat 33%, Independent 39%, other/Not Applicable/Don't Know, 6% )

I'm not sure that this entirely represents the nation as a whole ?  

Oh.. and here's some snippets from the methodology document... 

Quote

... Dual frame landline and cell phone samples are generated using Random Digit Dialing procedures by Survey Sampling International (SSI). Both the landline and cellular phone samples are stratified by Census division according to area code.

..... This survey uses statistical weighting procedures to account for deviations in the survey sample from known population characteristics, which helps correct for differential survey participation and random variation in samples. The overall adult sample is weighted to recent Census data using a sample balancing procedure to match the demographic makeup of the population by region, gender, age, education and race....

 

 

stratified ? weighted ? I dunno guys... sounds like this extremely small sample (1200 people) was "adjusted" before being presented to us, the great unwashed. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by RoofGardener

[RavenHawk]

16 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Sounds like a lot of ignorant Americans want him to disclose his Returns.  But of course, the smart ones like you don't have any interests in knowing what (murky?) businesses my nations leader may be entangled in. This is the same guy that makes decisions on how much tax you pay or whether their is collusion with a country that you've been at war with (cold war) for the last 70 years.  As long as his rhetoric fits your agenda keep smiling smart guy and don't forget to take those gullibility pills, one in the morning and one at night.

He’s a billionaire.  He has business dealings all across the planet.  I guess since he is a businessman, he is inherently evil??  The President doesn’t make decisions on how much tax we pay.  That is Congress.  He did sign a tax cut presented to him by Congress.  That’s right on schedule to collapse the nation so Putin can take over.  This collusion wild goose chase is about over.  What are you going to do when it is finally, completely discredited?  We might find out that it is time to seek amends with Russia.  It may not happen but we can pursue the possibility.  The more we muck around with collusion, the more powerful China gets.

16 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Also, to add to the above, I'm fully aware a person doesn't have to necessarily disclose their tax info to the public, only to the authorities, but neither does someone have to show their ID to the public, again only to the appropriate authorities.  Yet, I remember Trump was one of the loudest mouthpieces in asking Obama to prove his identity to the nation.  What a hypocrite!

Sure, I would love to see his tax returns, then I could cram them down your throat.  But since Obama has set the precedent, it really doesn’t matter does it?  It is only Constitutional to prove one is natural born.  So yes, his bona fides should be presented to the general public.  In days of old, someone that knew the President from birth would give an affidavit.  Today that is a birth certificate.  But the thing is, is that certificate should go through a thorough forensic examination, since we are relying on it.  A far as I know, this has never been done for any President and in the case of Obama, we will never be 100% sure.  Other than natural born, the Presidential Candidate is not required to release anything else.  Again, if there was anything even questionable about his taxes, it would have been leaked out years ago.

[Tatetopa]

10 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

And personally, I'm doing better than ever. I know that every single person on the Left will have a terrible story about how miserable their lives are and its 100% Trump's fault, but to say anything else in public would be heresy for them.

Who cares?

Me too, I am doing fantastically well with my 401k and investments. . My life is great financially.  I don't blame Trump for my bad knees or arthritic hands.  I know it was  logging and sawmill work, but then that was my choice   I had a good time in my youth, I am paying the price now.  I don't care financially (it bothers my ethics a bit)  if the Trump organization skims a few hundred billion off the top of America, as long as they don't get caught taking money instead of serving America.

 

And you are right, 4 bankruptcies out of however many businesses doesn't matter to me.  Plenty of people go broke trying to make it, and a lot of them do make it if they keep trying.  It did matter to the banks loaning him money however.  That is why he had to seek money offshore to continue his projects.  

I am not trying to ride an ethical high horse here.  What I am saying is that when you are searching for money, sometimes you find some questionable lenders that cause you problems down the road.

[Tatetopa]

10 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

How's life living inside the TV with the MSN gang?

I guess you would have to tell me about that.  I don't waste time with TV and not all of my views  are msn but my distrust of politicians and what they brag about certainly crosses the aisle.   President Trump has a lot in common with Slick Willie Clinton, and I don't trust either of them. It took a few years to see the total burn Clinton did to the American people, maybe we will see the same in the 2020's after Trump.

[Black Red Devil]

16 hours ago, OverSword said:

That’s all being investigated so why the stress? I’m not a trump supporter, I just don’t identify with the hysteria I see from so many. Your life take a sharp turn for the worse since he took office? Except for all the crying people picking apart and blowing out of proportion every thing he does I can’t tell any difference 

Stress? I never stress.  I don't even know the meaning of the word.

[Black Red Devil]

6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Interesting poll... considering that only 22% of the 1200 polled individuals declared themselves to be republican. 

(breakdown: Republican: 22%, Democrat 33%, Independent 39%, other/Not Applicable/Don't Know, 6% )

I'm not sure that this entirely represents the nation as a whole ?  

 

 

 

What's wrong with that spread?  Would you have preferred 100% Rep pollers, would that have represented the whole nation?

But even, for argument sake, if pollers were broken down to 50% each Republicans and Democrats and 100% said no we aren't interested in seeing his tax info (Rep) and 100% said we do want to (Dem) that would mean that 50% of the nation wanted to know.  As the leader of a nation you represent all the nation don't you or just the 50% that voted for you?

Edited August 18, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

He’s a billionaire.  He has business dealings all across the planet.  I guess since he is a businessman, he is inherently evil??  The President doesn’t make decisions on how much tax we pay.  That is Congress.  He did sign a tax cut presented to him by Congress.  That’s right on schedule to collapse the nation so Putin can take over.  This collusion wild goose chase is about over.  What are you going to do when it is finally, completely discredited?  We might find out that it is time to seek amends with Russia.  It may not happen but we can pursue the possibility.  The more we muck around with collusion, the more powerful China gets.

Sure, I would love to see his tax returns, then I could cram them down your throat.  But since Obama has set the precedent, it really doesn’t matter does it?  It is only Constitutional to prove one is natural born.  So yes, his bona fides should be presented to the general public.  In days of old, someone that knew the President from birth would give an affidavit.  Today that is a birth certificate.  But the thing is, is that certificate should go through a thorough forensic examination, since we are relying on it.  A far as I know, this has never been done for any President and in the case of Obama, we will never be 100% sure.  Other than natural born, the Presidential Candidate is not required to release anything else.  Again, if there was anything even questionable about his taxes, it would have been leaked out years ago.

Where did I say businessmen are evil?  So, if his tax returns showed business links to Russia what happens then, I shove them up your ginger instead do I?

No problems if you're a businessman and you have businesses all over the world and you don't have to account to anyone, but he decided to become POTUS, the leader of the free democratic world, the head of the worlds police force and primarily the chief representative of 300+ million citizens. 

I doubt many really give a toss how well his businesses are running but probably most do care if they effect his judgement as their leader, no?  If he raises taxes that favor businesses but penalise the average Joe, then that's a concern because the average Joe's make up most of the population and no, taxing the poor to favour businesses doesn't improve the Economy, all it does is make the 1% richer. 

If  he has business interests in Russia and these are colluding with his role as the POTUS, sorry buddy but you can't just shrug and say that's his business.

[+OverSword]

21 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

What's wrong with that spread?  Would you have preferred 100% Rep pollers, would that have represented the whole nation?

But even, for argument sake, if pollers were broken down to 50% each Republicans and Democrats and 100% said no we aren't interested in seeing his tax info (Rep) and 100% said we do want to (Dem) that would mean that 50% of the nation wanted to know.  As the leader of a nation you represent all the nation don't you or just the 50% that voted for you?

The rub being that he is not required to release that information. But you can be sure that Mueller has it and if it’s relevant we’ll know soon enough. I have a feeling that the investigation isn’t going to find anything fatal to the administration and judging by what I see from the democrats he will get two terms.