Religion Deeper Meanings

[freetoroam]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Ps a bit of a tilt, and humans as we know them might not be able to survive, but this does not mean that another form of life might not evolve, develop self aware intelligence,  eventually join a forum just like this one, to debate its place on earth

Humans are relying on technology today to communicate and to survive in many areas, one being medical, if the Earth got hit my a meteorite big enough to wipe us out or a tilt which changes our climate, then our technology would also be affected. 

Humans can survive without the modern technologies, we did it before,  put a climate change and loss of our resources and natural disasters, obviously the number of deaths will be in the billions.

I believe another life form could certainly evolve if the Earths conditions are right, but the Earth could just as well become another planet circling our sun without human type life. 

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

we are an integrated part of what humans call god. just as we are an integrated part of the ecology of earth   

I understand what you mean. 

These are two very different ways of how to view the Earth, i  watched a programme about the tsunami and one guy was saying it was gods will as they had sinned, this kind of thought is IMO not helping the human race and is certainly not helping the planet.

How much danger has religious beliefs done to our way of life because people believe its got will to punish them because of their sins?  If they did not rely on a god as their guidance, they may look more at them selves as humans living on a planet where the best way to live is to respect our planet, every bit of food and all the resources we use also come from this planets.

[freetoroam]

29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I knw tht ppl cn rd sntncs wtht th vwls n thm 

Lol. But is that a vowel i can read at the beginning? 

[Mr Walker]

23 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Humans are relying on technology today to communicate and to survive in many areas, one being medical, if the Earth got hit my a meteorite big enough to wipe us out or a tilt which changes our climate, then our technology would also be affected. 

Humans can survive without the modern technologies, we did it before,  put a climate change and loss of our resources and natural disasters, obviously the number of deaths will be in the billions.

I believe another life form could certainly evolve if the Earths conditions are right, but the Earth could just as well become another planet circling our sun without human type life. 

I understand what you mean. 

These are two very different ways of how to view the Earth, i  watched a programme about the tsunami and one guy was saying it was gods will as they had sinned, this kind of thought is IMO not helping the human race and is certainly not helping the planet.

How much danger has religious beliefs done to our way of life because people believe its got will to punish them because of their sins?  If they did not rely on a god as their guidance, they may look more at them selves as humans living on a planet where the best way to live is to respect our planet, every bit of food and all the resources we use also come from this planets.

I tend to agree but the last bit is not  tha t simple. Humans construct all sorts of beliefs for all sorts of reasons.

Some are dangerous some constructive  My understanding is that in christian theology we were made stewards of the earth and given the responsibility to care for it

The bible has many verses telling humans how to care for the earth and our responsibility to it   In Australia most Christians follow a social gospel preached by the main christian churches since the sixties  ie they use the bible as s social set of ethics and moralities to care for others and for the planet Not to be materialistic and greedy but to share and try to equalise opportunity and outcomes 

But people tend to take what they want for their own needs from any text.

IMO it is not god's will that anyone ever be hurt or die, and natural events are NEVER punishments from  god  That is is actually the sort of thinking a cave man might have   I have bought one new pair of trousers since 2005 and the y were second hand   that comes both from my secular and academic education around reducing my ecological footprint,  but also from the understanding given by god that material  things are only important as essentials

eg i only own 3 pairs of trousers.  I alternate two each week, as the other pair is washed, and keep one pair for good ones  (sorry i do have a couple of older pairs only used for gardening )

I suspect that some churches pander to human greed and materialism in their preaching  My wife and i live very comfortably on the equivalent of the old age pension because we don't create materiel wants in our lives. indeed about 25% of our income goes on our animals and another 10 % or so goes supporting both environmental /animal welfare groups and people from around the word who really need help  ive got our ecological footprint down under the amount needed to be sustainable   

An Ecological Footprint less than 1.7 global hectares per person makes those resource demands globally replicable. ... At current population levels, our planet has only 1.7 global hectares (gha) of biologically productive surface area per person.

Our combined footprint is   a bit under 3 hectares,  largely because we use solar power and rain water, and  almost never buy new things 

 

Australia has the sixth highest footprint in the world (on average 6.6 hectares per person  or higher) 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

9 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Lol. But is that a vowel i can read at the beginning? 

yea i put it in for context,  

This is actually a part of  a sentence i used in full, earlier in the post,  and i thought the "I"  might help danydandan recognise that  fact 

I was actually quite surprised the first time we were shown this, a t a conference a few decades ago.  It shows how, once you can read, (which is actually decoding)  your mind fills in gaps, and makes sense of words, even with half the information missing from them   

[freetoroam]

22 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

yea i put it in for context,  

This is actually a part of  a sentence i used in full, earlier in the post,  and i thought the "I"  might help danydandan recognise that  fact 

I was actually quite surprised the first time we were shown this, a t a conference a few decades ago.  It shows how, once you can read, (which is actually decoding)  your mind fills in gaps, and makes sense of words, even with half the information missing from them   

Although i find the way the mind fills in the blanks interesting, i find the new texting with half the letters missing a touch annoying. Not because i have to work out what the words are, i enjoy letter games, but because i feel it is lazy. 

People have been writing books and letters for years, now we have an even quicker way of writing and yet that is still not quick enough. 

[freetoroam]

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I tend to agree but the last bit is not  tha t simple. Humans construct all sorts of beliefs for all sorts of reasons.

Some are dangerous some constructive  My understanding is that in christian theology we were made stewards of the earth and given the responsibility to care for it

The bible has many verses telling humans how to care for the earth and our responsibility to it   In Australia most Christians follow a social gospel preached by the main christian churches since the sixties  ie they use the bible as s social set of ethics and moralities to care for others and for the planet Not to be materialistic and greedy but to share and try to equalise opportunity and outcomes 

But people tend to take what they want for their own needs from any text.

IMO it is not god's will that anyone ever be hurt or die, and natural events are NEVER punishments from  god  That is is actually the sort of thinking a cave man might have   I have bought one new pair of trousers since 2005 and the y were second hand   that comes both from my secular and academic education around reducing my ecological footprint,  but also from the understanding given by god that material  things are only important as essentials

eg i only own 3 pairs of trousers.  I alternate two each week, as the other pair is washed, and keep one pair for good ones  (sorry i do have a couple of older pairs only used for gardening )

I suspect that some churches pander to human greed and materialism in their preaching  My wife and i live very comfortably on the equivalent of the old age pension because we don't create materiel wants in our lives. indeed about 25% of our income goes on our animals and another 10 % or so goes supporting both environmental /animal welfare groups and people from around the word who really need help  ive got our ecological footprint down under the amount needed to be sustainable   

An Ecological Footprint less than 1.7 global hectares per person makes those resource demands globally replicable. ... At current population levels, our planet has only 1.7 global hectares (gha) of biologically productive surface area per person.

Our combined footprint is   a bit under 3 hectares,  largely because we use solar power and rain water, and  almost never buy new things 

 

Australia has the sixth highest footprint in the world (on average 6.6 hectares per person  or higher) 

 

I am not religious, to the bold bits, i can not ubderstand why man would need to be told these through a religious book. I do know many need educating, but why does a god have to be part of it? 

To this bit

Quote

IMO it is not god's will that anyone ever be hurt or die, and natural events are NEVER punishments from  god  That is is actually the sort of thinking a cave man might have 

I do not think cave men would have thought it was gods will, in fact, i assume cave men were fully aware that it was natural events. It was only since the invention of religions where the mind sets changed. 

Today, no man should be thinking a natural event was gods will, who ever preached to them, did not do so well. 

I can understand the goodness some people want to preach about, but we are living in a world with different religions, with rich and poor people and with people of different levels of intelligence, this is why the divides and confusions have happened over the years and i believe if there were no gods mentions, people would have found a better way of living among each other.....we do not need to fight each other today for survival,  we are not cavemen,  in fact were they ever as violent as man is today?  

[Perfection]

i've met God in person many times. I am going to be in God's Presence in a few minutes. God takes me out of the universe & the universe becomes the size of a pea. It is nothing. It is an illusory bubble that God uses to incarnate souls so that they can learn & grow. God is absolutely 100% humble, meek, loving, forgiving, kind, gentle, long suffering, self sacrificing, giving etc etc. Yet for the sake of teaching young souls the difference between right & wrong. Good & evil, God acts like an angry father or a powerful leader who expects a lot from you. It's part of the training of souls. 

 

A few times God has transformed me into a god. It is amazing. You become this being who is heavy with enormous power & deep contemplative thought. It's impossible to describe. LOL. But not for a moment do you become the big God. You're just like a son of God. A small god. You feel big of course. Sometimes I was transformed into a multi-armed god. But i never for a moment felt egotistical. I know I am a nothing & will remain a nothing for all time. I know that from meeting God & His Angels. They are all wonderful & I am just a foolish imp & nothing more.

 

The idea that we can become God & transform the earth etc is flawed, because for millions of years people have been meditating etc & had every opportunity to become god if it was possible, & transform the earth into a paradise etc, but no one has done so. And in this hectic modern age it is going to be even harder to meditate etc & achieve any advanced godly state 'without any help from the real God. LOL

[XenoFish]

Isn't there a rule against role playing? 

[Sojo]

While not an exact fit, I believe the OP is presenting a line of thought similar to that which Scott Adams presents in his book, God's Debris. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Debris)

[Will Due]

17 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

Sometimes I think it's a gnostic message that has been misinterpreted.

The kingdom of God is within you might just mean you don't need to go to a church to experience God. 

It doesn't necessarily mean that you are God. 

 

Jesus said we are the children of God.

God's sons and daughters. 

Don't children usually grow up to become like their parents?

 

 

[GlitterRose]

3 hours ago, danydandan said:

Nope I don't have a clue really what the sentence means.

It's just that the y or they thing, sometimes it's confusing.

I always figured his keyboard sticks and somehow makes a space all the time.

At first, I did wonder who the nefarious y were. 

[Duke Wellington]

5 hours ago, Perfection said:

i've met God in person many times. I am going to be in God's Presence in a few minutes. God takes me out of the universe & the universe becomes the size of a pea. It is nothing. It is an illusory bubble that God uses to incarnate souls so that they can learn & grow. God is absolutely 100% humble, meek, loving, forgiving, kind, gentle, long suffering, self sacrificing, giving etc etc. Yet for the sake of teaching young souls the difference between right & wrong. Good & evil, God acts like an angry father or a powerful leader who expects a lot from you. It's part of the training of souls. 

A few times God has transformed me into a god. It is amazing. You become this being who is heavy with enormous power & deep contemplative thought. It's impossible to describe. LOL. But not for a moment do you become the big God. You're just like a son of God. A small god. You feel big of course. Sometimes I was transformed into a multi-armed god. But i never for a moment felt egotistical. I know I am a nothing & will remain a nothing for all time. I know that from meeting God & His Angels. They are all wonderful & I am just a foolish imp & nothing more.

The idea that we can become God & transform the earth etc is flawed, because for millions of years people have been meditating etc & had every opportunity to become god if it was possible, & transform the earth into a paradise etc, but no one has done so. And in this hectic modern age it is going to be even harder to meditate etc & achieve any advanced godly state 'without any help from the real God. LOL

In my opinion oneness (aka God) has no personality characteristics.

Personality characteristics like good or evil, kind or mean, humble or boastful, judging or forgiving, all apply to individual entities. Oneness cannot have such properties while maintaining its non-duality. I just pointed out an inconsistency with a lot of religions there claiming God is oneness while trying to assign properties, qualities, and characteristics to it. Properties, qualities, and characteristics apply to mind fragments not a unified state of oneness.

The oneness just creates, nothing else. Thoughts define the duality relationships which have pulled into existence our mind fragments and the universe out of that oneness. The initial thoughts are about the oneness trying to know itself. Something which immediately collapses it into mind fragments. The continuing thoughts in the mind fragments give each one an identity.

It is identity which is the problem. People see themselves as a man or woman when they are in fact a mind fragment which has arisen from oneness trying to know itself. And that identity of a man or woman defines further duality relationships bringing into existence the rest of the contents of our reality.The contents of reality become different one the human identity is destroyed and replaced with a oneness one.

In my opinion that is how the second coming destroys the universe and creates a new perfect one.

Edited August 17, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[Perfection]

well we have the Hindu faith which teaches that God appears as a man or as a woman. And in this age as a lover. And as a turtle, a fish, a guy on a horse, a man with a lion's head, a warrior, a baby child etc. So that is showing that all types of totally different minds are used by God to effect a purpose.

 

Christians are told about a tree that has a talking snake with it & the knowledge of good & evil. And another tree with it which is the only entity which can give eternal life. The talking snake is ordered to remain under their feet & deny people access to the tree.

Then in another christian book a tree appears to Moses & says it is God, & puts a piece of wood which turns into a snake at his feet. And the snake acts like God & separates the waters & saves the world. So in christianity there is a tree & a snake acting as God. So they will have different types of minds as well. The eternal fully knowledgable tree mind & the cuning snake mind. And at the end of the bible it says that a tree grows 12 different kinds of fruits & keeps every good person alive. Those are most likely the 12 tribes of people that it grows. That tree is the tree of eternal life that grows souls on its branches. The Egyptians & Sumerians etc detail in their art how a small God tree grows the soul orbs that are inside people. & it was in Egypt where Moses was when the bush or small tree appeared & said it was God & put a God-like snake at Mose's feet. The bible says it was a bush but it is also a small tree shown beside the feet in millions of ancient art works from many religions.

 

And all these different ways that God appears are able to carry out different actions. God uses any type of body He wants, to perform specific works. So there is a higher consciousness with us that watches us & grows our souls & leads us through various life lessons; & appears at different times in different kinds of bodies. There is one story where God is teaching sadhus about reality & a sadhu showed no respect to God & was egotistical instead, & God just picked up a blade of grass & touched the sadhu with it & he died. Another story is of a boy who could see God everywhere & his father was a king & was very angry with the boy. The king said to his son that if God was everywhere then he must be inside the stone pillar as well. And the father demanded that God come out of the pillar & show himself. And God burst out of the pillar as a man with many arms & a lion's head, & tore the father to shreds. 

So it's like there is a hidden higher power around us which is watching everything & some people are able to perceive its miracles & works & some people are not. God explains to millions of people in their dreams that their souls are being fed the earth life experience by God & God's Angels or workers. So everything people are perceiving is actually coming through a channel from the body of God & has God's personal energies in it. It's like the way your own dna can be on everything you handle. So God really is in everything & God explains to people why that is so. Because life & material things all come through God into the perception of the human. Personally I observe how life is filled with non stop miracles that occur one after the other all day & night 24/7. Everything is flowing from a higher power that is organising everything perfectly as we experience it. It's like what people call the plan of God that unfolds around us every day. If I get caught up in the material side of it & get overwhelmed then I cannot see the forest because a tree is in the way. lol. I can get lost in the material side of things with all its little things to think about & not see the bigger picture where everything is coming from God & has a plan behind it.

 

So I know there is a higher God around us, even though our own souls & even the pieces of garbage on the floor have a deep connection to God & have God in them at their essence. 

 

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, freetoroam said:

I am not religious, to the bold bits, i can not ubderstand why man would need to be told these through a religious book. I do know many need educating, but why does a god have to be part of it? 

To this bit

I do not think cave men would have thought it was gods will, in fact, i assume cave men were fully aware that it was natural events. It was only since the invention of religions where the mind sets changed. 

Today, no man should be thinking a natural event was gods will, who ever preached to them, did not do so well. 

I can understand the goodness some people want to preach about, but we are living in a world with different religions, with rich and poor people and with people of different levels of intelligence, this is why the divides and confusions have happened over the years and i believe if there were no gods mentions, people would have found a better way of living among each other.....we do not need to fight each other today for survival,  we are not cavemen,  in fact were they ever as violent as man is today?  

It is about BELIEF and the inner drive a belief gives a person. ONLY a strong inner drive is powerful enough to override self interest and to motivate people To push them past laziness and comfort ,to think and act beyond their own little world and interests.  

This doesn't have to be religious belief, it can be, for example, a humanistic belief or an environmental belief, but in a sense these are religious beliefs also, just without a god.

I am, by nature, a Gaean  but i throw god into the mix because, for me, it is a natural part of the environment  It lives in every living thing and permeates our world, connecting me to every plant, animal, and human in the world

I disagree.

I see religion as an evolved and natural survival mechanism of the human mind Without it humans would have no hope no faith no belief in anything We would know death and fear it. We would suffer pain with no hope of relief   We would be lesser beings .

But i agree that many beliefs can be negative.  We have to refine religions into positive and constructive forces, which improve humanity and the environment   Due to the nature of our cognitive processes, we will never eliminate them from humanity, so it is essential we mould and shape them to be agents for constructive purposes  eg equality, justice, fraternity of human kind,  and a force pushing spiritual  wealth and wisdom, over material wealth.  

History and archaeology would show that individual humans have always been violent, and if anything, as individuals we may be less violent today, because of social and legal restrictions on violence.

Warfare has been a part of almost every human culture and society, and indeed i cant think of even one where it did not exist  But our technologies and our sheer numbers make the effect of human violence much deeper and wider than ever before. 

We know that early peoples did not separate  natural and supernatural events, nor the material and spiritual.

We can still see this in contact with people like the Australian aboriginals and their pre european beliefs We also know it form the cuneiform writing on tablets from Sumeria. Babylonia.

  There was no such thing as nature, as we know it, in early minds The y did not have the data or knowledge of even basic science to construct such an understanding.   It was not an impersonal unthinking force but a being or beings of deliberate intent and purpose.

This meant it could be sacrificed to or  propitiated with offerings or ceremonies  etc 

This animism is the earliest form of religious belief known in mankind and seems to have developed, along with higher order language skills and abstract symbolic language skills ,about 100000 years ago 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Scudbuster said:

But sadly, this is where the bible came from - embellished stories from way back then when they had no clue whatsoever what was going on.

Imaginations raged and tall tales were spun from generation to generation until they were finally documented......and no way of vetting them either. 

  

Not quite The bible was first an attempt to codify social behaviour in a nomadic pastoralist society, and then (apart from  the actual gospel of christ) a revision to a society more aligned with settled agrarian  activities

It actually tries to get us to move away from  our primitive  animal  responses, and to use our minds to think and behave. It introduces the concepts of love altruism, justice,  fair treatment of slaves, sustaining an environment, effective crop management and rotation, the most effective social relationships and grounds for marriage (dont become unequally yoked )   good money management, safe diet and sexual behaviours etc.  It outlines the duties of the young to the old and the relationship between a husband and wife including the emotional and physical duties of both 

  Of course bits of it are  now terribly dated and some modern people don't know enough about past societies to understand why the laws and rules were necessary or constructed as the y were  also modern people aren't good on duty and obligation, they prefer individual  freedom, and   a sense of entitlement.

The bible is actually a series of social laws and rules designed to construct a safe, stable, and sustainable society.

It then introduces a god to give authority to those rules and laws and to make people more likely to obey them  But the rules and laws (apart from the ones to do with worship)  would have been the same in an entirely secular society of that era,  because they went to the economic and social needs of the society of the time.  

Edited August 18, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

I quoted instead of  edited  

Edited August 18, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't there a rule against role playing? 

What do you mean?   Is it that you do not believe the truth of Perfection's stories and thus believe the y must be deliberately role playing an imaginative persona .

That is not necessarily so,  his/her  accounts could be absolutely true/honest  interpretations of personal experiences.  The y resemble a lot of my own in many ways, although I have drawn different conclusions from my own experiences with god 

This doesn't mean I believe it all to be true. 

Indeed, at times I suspect a giant hoax, which will be revealed after drawing us all in; BUT i do not DISBELIEVE the possibility that this is an entirely open and honest account of the writer's experiences.  

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 Is it that you do not believe the truth of Perfection's stories and thus believe the y must be deliberately role playing an imaginative persona .

The y resemble a lot of my own in many ways, although I have drawn different conclusions from my own experiences with god 

You've answered yourself Walker. I don't believe him/her for the very same reasons I do not believe you. 

[Mr Walker]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You've answered yourself Walker. I don't believe him/her for the very same reasons I do not believe you. 

But you do more. You accuse Perfection of playing a role/ of making stuff up 

I know i do neither, and so it is also possible, even likely, that the y are not, either.

My experiences allow me to accept the possibility of their's

 Your lack of experiences closes your mind to either of our's. 

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

But you do more. You accuse Perfection of playing a role/ of making stuff up 

I know i do neither, and so it is also possible, even likely, that the y are not, either.

My experiences allow me to accept the possibility of their's

 Your lack of experiences closes your mind to either of our's. 

Walker I honestly could care less what you think. I find you mildly amusing at times, most of the time you're nothing more than a spiritual narcissist. There seems to be a growing number of folks like that showing up, folks like you. This will be the last time I will ever respond to you Walker. Don't bother quoting me again, I don't care what you think.

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Walker I honestly could care less what you think. I find you mildly amusing at times, most of the time you're nothing more than a spiritual narcissist. There seems to be a growing number of folks like that showing up, folks like you. This will be the last time I will ever respond to you Walker. Don't bother quoting me again, I don't care what you think.

I will continue to quote you, both when i feel you are correct, and when i think you are not.

It is not about you or me, but about exploring and defining different points of view,  often based upon very different life experiences .

[GoldenWolf]

On 8/17/2018 at 6:08 AM, Will Due said:

 

Jesus said we are the children of God.

God's sons and daughters. 

Don't children usually grow up to become like their parents?

 

 

Just think, there is  no commandment for thou shall honor thy childrren.

[Will Due]

8 minutes ago, MysticWolf said:

Just think, there is  no commandment for thou shall honor thy childrren.

 

I suppose that commandment a person needs to figure out themselves. Honor thy children. They can teach you much about what's true.

 

 

[GoldenWolf]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I suppose that commandment a person needs to figure out themselves. Honor thy children. They can teach you much about what's true.

 

 

Problem is, they don't.

[lightly]

I've always wondered if good or evil can exist without spirituality of some sort.     .?.  

What difference does it make how we treat one another,  or hurt each other's  feelings  , if we are just blobs of atoms with no spiritual connections to each other ?