XenoFish Posted August 20, 2018 #26 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Amita said: Mahayana is based on a simple intention & motivation - reduce suffering & increase wisdom for beings over many lifetimes by living selflessly & encouraging others to live likewise. One set of four vows outlines the path: Beings are countless, I vow to liberate them. Merit and wisdom are boundless, I vow to accumulate them. The Dharma of the Buddha is boundless, I vow to master it. I vow to realize the unsurpassed, right enlightenment of a Buddha. I can reduce that to one motive. "Try to be a better person each day, in every way." So do I get a gold star for enlightenment? Edited August 20, 2018 by XenoFish 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted August 20, 2018 #27 Share Posted August 20, 2018 My enlightenment is still the mind to silence, then act spontaneously without pre-thinking action. You'd be surprised how nice it is. What a relief. See, the mind has its own intelligence and knows what to do next. When we have all these rules and directives to remember and to obey, we are always pre-judging ourselves before every activity. We become like the centipede that's trying to control its legs. Just let the legs behave as they will. This is the objection I have to complex religious dogma. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amita Posted August 20, 2018 Author #28 Share Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, XenoFish said: I can reduce that to one motive. "Try to be a better person each day, in every way." So do I get a gold star for enlightenment? Not yet, maybe a brass star for personal improvement in virtue. If you keep it up for several lifetimes to come and begin to think about others more than yourself - who knows how bright your star will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #29 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) It is a sign of great weakness, to be hostile to the unfamiliar. ~Anais Nin. So I understand not being interested in talking about the sutras... then why participate and assault those who may wish to? Why not simply find something you're interested in and move on? Unless what you're interested in is attacking and arguing notions you are uncomfortable with in the interest of shutting down what others are able to discuss. Spoiler Why spend such energy and instill your experience of this moment with vitriol that would otherwise not exist in your mind, by assaulting those who wish to engage in a simple conversation about something they find value in? Perhaps move on to those things that don't trigger you so and leave folks to enjoy a nice chat if they choose? Edited August 20, 2018 by quiXilver spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 20, 2018 #30 Share Posted August 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, quiXilver said: It is a sign of great weakness, to be hostile to the unfamiliar. ~Anais Nin. Do not treat belief as facts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #31 Share Posted August 20, 2018 who is the arbiter of the interpretation of the senses and their accuracy? who is it who is doing all this thinking? is the thinking also the thinker? who is it who carries around this corpse, this... future soil? who is it who causes the meat to cling to this skeleton? do we perceive the world exactly as it is? when the one who woke up, woke up, he began to share his awakening. how to share what one experiences fully with another who has yet to experience it? Buddha taught for some three decades after his awakening. Many, many sharings he left us. Of all of them, this one resonates as vajra for me, unbreakable as diamond and as clear as a flash of lightning. Take care what you let yourself think. Your thoughts become your reality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 20, 2018 #32 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Once again. Do not treat belief as fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfection Posted August 20, 2018 #33 Share Posted August 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Amita said: Mahayana is based on a simple intention & motivation - reduce suffering & increase wisdom for beings over many lifetimes by living selflessly & encouraging others to live likewise. well basically God is a tree or a plant. And like all plants it simply produces & gives freely without any thought of getting anything in return. So we only need to study the apple tree or something like that to learn the correct & Holy way to behave towards our fellow man or woman. We don't need to read scriptures as they are heavily infected by evil priests & corrupt humans who are more or less subject to the beast nature to some degree, which is more or less absent in the plant realm where God fits. You will always see Buddha & everyone else who is holy seated on a flower. That is done on purpose because Holiness belongs with the tree of life or God. The Vedas teach that the first person in the universe was born inside a flower. The abrahamic religions talk of a tree that is the only thing that can give eternal life & save humanity. So obviously that is God or the supreme. If it is the only thing that can give you life then it is the only thing that is the supreme aspect of God. So i believe we all have to be like plants, flowers & trees etc & simply live our lives giving freely to the universe without thought of return. The Caduceus is the symbol representing how the tree of life holds each person's soul as they learn life's lessons. The wings represent the soul on the end of the branch below it, & the two snakes represent the tendrils of the tree that guard the soul. In Genesis a tree calling itself God appears & tells Moses to take his shoes off. Then it places a wooden rod at his feet which turns into a serpent. This is the Caduceus of God or The Tree of Life. So if you want to be holy or good in God's eyes then you need only be like a plant & give selflessly to the world 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amita Posted August 20, 2018 Author #34 Share Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, XenoFish said: Thinking about others, so tell me, how many kids do you have? As for that "several lifetimes" nonsense. It's nonsense. If you want a reset on this life and squander it because you think you get a second chance, that's not very enlightened. Best choice, make this life count. Only one offspring and only one grandchild - why do you ask? "Making this life count" by increasing the ratio between our virtues & vices is a good choice. "Best choice" - is that fact or belief? Just teasing, all we can do is follow our best lights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #35 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Once again. Do not treat belief as fact. While I can accept what you say on one level. I take it a step further the longer I roam this tiny blue dot and interact with my mind, body and the co arising conditions of what we call 'the universe', or 'reality'... I can't live in answers any longer. I unfold in questions quite nicely though... even when life is unpleasant. the universe i inhabit and consider real, is utterly subjective and the facts of my, or anyone's can be just as illusory as any belief, particularly when we consider the inherent innacuracy of the human perceptual system and the deeply ingrained nature of programmed thinking based on perceptual interpretations. Perception is interpretation, it's model making, it's not reality... and it's based on gamble and extrapolation. We get partial information through our senses (we perceive with our senses and tools about 5% of the universe), then we interpret the partial information and expand upon it. Usually to fit learned and preconceived notions that are utterly illusory. Rudy Giulliani recently exemplified this with his 'truth isn't truth' statement. Reality tunnels determine many of what we consider to be 'the facts'. Few say it better in the modern vernacular than Robert Anton Wilson. But he echoes the very notions in the Buddha's simple statement. For those with two minutes to spare, the following excerpt is pure gold. Naive Realism I had come to this questioning long before I encountered either the teachings of Buddha, or Mr Wilson, or the various others, but when I encountered these words, they resonated with the truth of my experience... That my perception of what is, is not what actually is... they are my partitioned, reflected, interpreted interaction with the co-arising conditions of what is. And most of my interpretations, upon reflection, turned out to not even my own. The very words that make up the majority of my thoughts, are not my own words, they were given to me by my family and society as is normal. But these thoughts form the foundation of projected interpretations of experiences which are themselves... just thoughts. Most of the notions of reality I had growing up, dissolved into simple beingness and the clarity of stillness and the open, perfect clarity of simple beingness. When I began to let go of all the answers I was raised with and started living in questions, much suffering left my life. I still experience discomfort and on occasion pain, but I don't suffer unless I refuse to accept what is and spend time attached to wishing things were other than they are, or aren't as I think they should be. Who is the arbiter of truth? Who's take on reality is the exact same as any other and when different... who's got it right and who is wrong? Edited August 20, 2018 by quiXilver added the quote for context. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amita Posted August 20, 2018 Author #36 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Perfection: "So if you want to be holy or good then you need only be like a plant & give selflessly to the world." True indeed. As Nagarjuna, a Bodhisattva of old vowed: Just as people utilize the earth, water, fire, and wind, The wild herbs, and the forest trees, So too, in whatever way they wish to put me to use, I pray I will naturally be able to endure and accept it. I pray I will be cherished by them To the same degree that they feel concern for their own lives. I pray I will maintain a mindful concern for the welfare of beings Ten thousand times greater than my cherishing of self. I pray that whatever evil they have done Will have its fruit of retribution ripen in me And that this goodness which I practice Will have its fruit of retribution ripen in them. Should there remain even one person who hasn’t gained liberation And who, abiding in existence, courses on in the paths of rebirth, I pray I shall continue to abide therein for their benefit, Refraining from choosing bodhi before they have reached it. Edited August 20, 2018 by Amita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #37 Share Posted August 20, 2018 So grateful for Nagarjuna! Such a gift he is to read... such insight he unfolded in his presence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfection Posted August 20, 2018 #38 Share Posted August 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, Amita said: I pray I will be cherished by them that is expecting something from others & does not seem wise to me. And praying for something is the same as asking for things. It seems destined to fail without any doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #39 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Mahayana is often referred to as 'the little ferryboat' that carries one to their true nature, to wakening. The analogy being the method acts as a ferry that carries one from illusory attachments of perceptual life, to full awakening in being. Curious thing about a ferry, when we've crossed the river, we leave the boat behind. Some time into my decades of practice I realized my very seeking and my daily practices had become the final impedement to the simple truth... our true nature is ever present and never separate from us. Our mental experience of reality is a fog, created by self and culture that obscures and overshouts the quiet, clear experience of the truth of simple beingness. Eventually my practices became another level of illusion and I had to release them as well... and resolve into pure simple beingness. What is there but this moment as it is? This is exemplified very well by the Hindu image of Kali holding the severed head. In the end, we must cut off the head of our projected ideas of god, or wakening, in order to live the experience. The experience of clarity, emptiness and bliss can be lived, but cannot be described. The Tao that is spoken of, is not the eternal Tao. I'm reminded of Shunryu Suzuki's great quote. Upon entering the space with his students he smiled and proclaimed... "you are all perfect, exactly as you are... and you could all use... a little improvement." Reminds me that when the buddha woke, he didn't achieve something, or create something. He realized his true nature. Much like my painful attachments and illusions... when I strip them away, it's like peeling an onion. Each layer built up over time, reinforced by years of identifying my self as my thoughts or my emotions. Yet, like my painful attachments... when I peel the last layer, what lies at the center of an onion? nothing. Same thing applies to our attachments and notions of god. Buddha didn't achieve anything to me... If anything he released everything. Everything. And when he did this... what remained? True nature was revealed and experienced. This is what I find resonates for me in the Taoist (probably chen) saying "a learned man gains something every day... where a wise man drops something." To awaken must we achieve something? What can be added to, or removed from reality as it is? Buddha tried the path of the ascetic, punishing his body and denying himself in the extreme and found no wakening. His entire childhood was one of overindulgence in pleasures to try and keep the prophecy of his becoming a great spiritual teacher from coming to fruitiion. This only proved to him early on that the myriad joys of the flesh are fleeting as clouds on a hot day and bring just as much suffering when they part as does the path of the ascetic/punisher. And they reveal no great truth to our true nature. I don't seem to be able to ever convey my experience of unity, bliss, clarity and emptiness in words, as words are incapable of conveying that which is inherently beyond them... but that isn't to say don't try and communicate with words, for when I've come across some of the great awakened one's words, there is a resonance... a vibration that is apparent when one has had a similar experience that rings my very awareness like a bell and brings a sense of kinship and renewal. How miraculous to sit here. Even with my sore back and aching shoulders from working yesterday. What a miracle to simply sit in a spot and be. Edited August 20, 2018 by quiXilver added a sentence for clarity and... spelling again. I should proofread sometimes :) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted August 20, 2018 #40 Share Posted August 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, Perfection said: that is expecting something from others & does not seem wise to me. And praying for something is the same as asking for things. It seems destined to fail without any doubt. I don't have the sense he is relying on their mental cherishment for his sense of self. Perhaps he's hoping for their experiencing of cherishment as this then becomes their reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amita Posted August 20, 2018 Author #41 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Perfection said: that is expecting something from others & does not seem wise to me. And praying for something is the same as asking for things. It seems destined to fail without any doubt. "Pray" is one translator's choice and it does not mean 'asking' any being for anything. It is an aspiration or vow of Nagarjuna to himself to develop these helpful qualities. Here is another version with a comment by Khensur Jampa Tegchok: 484. May I be beloved of beings, and may they be more beloved to me than myself. May I bear the results of their negativity, and may they have the results of all my virtue. [Comment by Khensur] When I am able to be a spiritual guide and protector for destitute sentient beings and help them out of their distressing state, may they cherish me and hold me as dear as their own lives. In the same way, may I always hold them dear and care more for their welfare than my own. By exchanging myself with others, may I happily experience the results of their negative actions, and may they experience the results of all my virtue. So the "beloved of beings" is a needed attractiveness when he is competent to help beings. If suffering beings are indifferent to or repelled by a bodhisattva, his power to help and have his advice & counsel listened to is much muted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoyoulikeatrain Posted August 21, 2018 #42 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Amita said: When I am able to be a spiritual guide and protector for destitute sentient beings and help them out of their distressing state, may they cherish me and hold me as dear as their own lives. In the same way, may I always hold them dear and care more for their welfare than my own. By exchanging myself with others, may I happily experience the results of their negative actions, and may they experience the results of all my virtue. So the "beloved of beings" is a needed attractiveness when he is competent to help beings. If suffering beings are indifferent to or repelled by a bodhisattva, his power to help and have his advice & counsel listened to is much muted. Sounds like a backhanded sermonizing. More slavery for the masses. Buddha's a classic demiurge's puppet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted August 21, 2018 #43 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Reminder : The Spirituality Beliefs section is not the section for debating beliefs. The correct section to debate topics is the Spirituality V's Skepticism board. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 21, 2018 #44 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I'm my own guru, but if you must have one, Buddha works better than most. If I wasn't a Druid I would most likely be a Buddhist. I'm happy with my spiritual path, though. Thank you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoyoulikeatrain Posted August 21, 2018 #45 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Druidism and Buddhism are tied to this world. Result's the same. There's no reason for you to switch to Buddhism. Buddhism's full of restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted August 21, 2018 #46 Share Posted August 21, 2018 4 hours ago, quiXilver said: Mahayana is often referred to as 'the little ferryboat' that carries one to their true nature, to wakening. The analogy being the method acts as a ferry that carries one from illusory attachments of perceptual life, to full awakening in being. Curious thing about a ferry, when we've crossed the river, we leave the boat behind. Some time into my decades of practice I realized my very seeking and my daily practices had become the final impedement to the simple truth... our true nature is ever present and never separate from us. Our mental experience of reality is a fog, created by self and culture that obscures and overshouts the quiet, clear experience of the truth of simple beingness. Eventually my practices became another level of illusion and I had to release them as well... and resolve into pure simple beingness. What is there but this moment as it is? This is exemplified very well by the Hindu image of Kali holding the severed head. In the end, we must cut off the head of our projected ideas of god, or wakening, in order to live the experience. The experience of clarity, emptiness and bliss can be lived, but cannot be described. The Tao that is spoken of, is not the eternal Tao. I'm reminded of Shunryu Suzuki's great quote. Upon entering the space with his students he smiled and proclaimed... "you are all perfect, exactly as you are... and you could all use... a little improvement." Reminds me that when the buddha woke, he didn't achieve something, or create something. He realized his true nature. Much like my painful attachments and illusions... when I strip them away, it's like peeling an onion. Each layer built up over time, reinforced by years of identifying my self as my thoughts or my emotions. Yet, like my painful attachments... when I peel the last layer, what lies at the center of an onion? nothing. Same thing applies to our attachments and notions of god. Buddha didn't achieve anything to me... If anything he released everything. Everything. And when he did this... what remained? True nature was revealed and experienced. This is what I find resonates for me in the Taoist (probably chen) saying "a learned man gains something every day... where a wise man drops something." To awaken must we achieve something? What can be added to, or removed from reality as it is? Buddha tried the path of the ascetic, punishing his body and denying himself in the extreme and found no wakening. His entire childhood was one of overindulgence in pleasures to try and keep the prophecy of his becoming a great spiritual teacher from coming to fruitiion. This only proved to him early on that the myriad joys of the flesh are fleeting as clouds on a hot day and bring just as much suffering when they part as does the path of the ascetic/punisher. And they reveal no great truth to our true nature. I don't seem to be able to ever convey my experience of unity, bliss, clarity and emptiness in words, as words are incapable of conveying that which is inherently beyond them... but that isn't to say don't try and communicate with words, for when I've come across some of the great awakened one's words, there is a resonance... a vibration that is apparent when one has had a similar experience that rings my very awareness like a bell and brings a sense of kinship and renewal. How miraculous to sit here. Even with my sore back and aching shoulders from working yesterday. What a miracle to simply sit in a spot and be. Very well said, thank you. (Actually, Mahayana is the Great Vehicle or ferry) Now, the problem with Mahayana and all belief systems is the difficulty we all have in discarding our attachments, including being attached to our belief systems. It seems we all want something, and emptiness or being-ness not very desirable, even though this emptying and being-ness is a realization of our fundamental fullness, in that we become everything we need to be. This, of course, we always have from our very beginning, it is our true nature. I think we are afraid of loosing what we consider ourselves. But when we loose that which is superficial, we discover our real self Try to convince someone of this! No, no, we must cling to Mahayana or whatever it is, it is too much to go beyond our cherished beliefs. What will my guru or priest say if I abandon him or need him no more? Guru's are very jealous. It is the easy path to be a disciple for life. Naturally, we have to start somewhere, but as you say, when the ferry carries us to the other shore, we abandon the ferry. The old saying is, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." It may take time, but when we realize this is the correct path, we should take it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted August 21, 2018 #47 Share Posted August 21, 2018 11 hours ago, Piney said: Except Legos. Man must have Legos to find true Daremo. When you can walk into your kids bedroom in the dark to check on him and not wake the house when you step on a lego you have learned this lesson well Grasshopper. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted August 21, 2018 #48 Share Posted August 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Tatetopa said: When you can walk into your kids bedroom in the dark to check on him and not wake the house when you step on a lego you have learned this lesson well Grasshopper. The magotachi are pretty anal about picking them up. No-No doesn't even lose the little guns for the people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amita Posted August 24, 2018 Author #49 Share Posted August 24, 2018 During my thirty-five years of association with Buddhism, I have always asked this question: "Of all Buddhist Schools-Hinayana, Mahayana and Tantra alike-which one truly holds the highest teaching of Buddhism?" The answer is now a clear-cut one: it is the Hwa Yen School of China. The Hwa Yen School, or Hwa Yen Tsung, was established in the Tang period, roughly in the 7th and 8th centuries A.D., by outstanding thinkers such as Tu Shun (557-640) and Fa Tsang (643-712). The Chinese word Hwa Yen means "the flower decoration" or "garland," which is originally the name of a voluminous Mahayana text: The Garland Sūtra (The Gandhavyūha or Avatamsaka Sūtra). Therefore, the teaching of this School is based mainly upon this text and draws inspiration from it. What does this scripture say and to whom are its messages addressed? The Hwa Yen Sūtra has one central concern: to reveal the Buddha-Realm of Infinity. Its messages are therefore directed to those who appreciate the awe-inspiring Infinity of Buddhahood revealed in Buddha's Enlightenment experience, which is described briefly in the first chapter. There is no other Buddhist scripture, to the best of my knowledge, that is superior to Hwa Yen in revealing the highest spiritual inspiration and the most profound mystery of Buddhahood. This opinion is shared, I believe, by the majority of Chinese and Japanese Buddhist scholars. It is small wonder that Hwa Yen has been regarded as the "crown" of all Buddhist teachings, and as representing the consummation of Buddhist insight and thought. From C.C. Chang in his Preface to Buddhist Teaching of Totality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted August 24, 2018 #50 Share Posted August 24, 2018 So, what is the point of all this? My perspective is from Zen and Daoism. I've also studied writings of the Chinese Ch'an masters. I think these may be quite different understandings of Buddhism than Indian Buddhism. I may be mistaken, of course. What is Buddha mind? In my view, fundamental mind is mental space devoid of thought, knowledge and memory, a complete silence from which all action arises, spontaneously and without effort. The pre-conditioned mind which operates with great intelligence and compassion. If Mahayana is to recognize this state of mind, all is well and good. But I always feel too much importance is given to special knowledge and the intellect and not to the cleansing of knowledge, or the understanding that knowledge itself is not enough to reach Buddha mind. We all want to find some peace of mind, and discovering our true selves. If Mahayana leads to this, as I say, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I think many consider Mahayana itself a goal, and not what it leads to. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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