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seanjo

Does Trump Incite Violence?

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F3SS
16 hours ago, Varelse said:

Any thorough review of a far right forum's commenters vs. a left wing site's right now will show beyond any doubt the far right has a disturbing attraction to violent fantasies and "fixing" what they don't like by spilling blood.

There are always a lot of if's in their talk. If I have to. If the day ever comes. The idea behind it is restraint and it's showed in spades. Like the meme says, if 50m conservative gun owners really were violent, you'd know it. 

On the flip side you're far more likely to be attacked with words and weapons by left wingers high on emotion and low on maturity for the littlest things like wearing a hat or attending a speech.

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Varelse
11 hours ago, skliss said:

Yes......it's much, much higher!

You didn't read it did you?  

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Varelse
5 hours ago, F3SS said:

There are always a lot of if's in their talk. If I have to. If the day ever comes. The idea behind it is restraint and it's showed in spades. Like the meme says, if 50m conservative gun owners really were violent, you'd know it. 

On the flip side you're far more likely to be attacked with words and weapons by left wingers high on emotion and low on maturity for the littlest things like wearing a hat or attending a speech.

It's not the 50mill, it's the one or two Dylan Klebolds, Tim McVeighs and the psycho-**** from Charlottesville who take those comments seriously. We'll have to wait to see what they do when the pendulum swings and they end up the losers. The far left are the current losers and yet a few on the far right are currently still responsible for more acts of random violence, murder and terrorism in the name of their beliefs. 

If you live in the frightwing media bubble, you'll naturally think masked left wingnuts are the violent scary ones. If you live in the leftwing Huff bubble, you're afraid every other Trump voter is secretly plotting the extermination of millions of brown people nationwide... :rolleyes: SSDD. 

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GlitterRose
4 minutes ago, Varelse said:

It's not the 50mill, it's the one or two Dylan Klebolds, Tim McVeighs and the psycho-**** from Charlottesville who take those comments seriously. We'll have to wait to see what they do when the pendulum swings and they end up the losers. The far left are the current losers and yet a few on the far right are currently still responsible for more acts of random violence, murder and terrorism in the name of their beliefs. 

If you live in the frightwing media bubble, you'll naturally think masked left wingnuts are the violent scary ones. If you live in the leftwing Huff bubble, you're afraid every other Trump voter is secretly plotting the extermination of millions of brown people nationwide... :rolleyes: SSDD. 

Just nationwide?

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Varelse
22 hours ago, stevemagegod said:

Um your site cites Islamic Terrorists being number 1.

And thats why Trump is President. Both Left and Right Wingers tried to ignore Islamic Terrorism or flat out defend it. Trump identified it as being born over seas and hence why he proposed a Muslim Ban. Something which the Left was horrified about. And constantly tries to that to block his Travel Bans which are not a Muslim Ban as nearly every African country and all the Middle East would be on it.

Ummm. Yeah. That's an underlying point. We have much bigger fish to fry in this world than each other. I saw the jihadi cloud coming while serving in Al-Jubal, KSA back in 90-91. Still, even that issue is blown out of proportion by the media's drumbeats. Far, far more people in our great nation will die not wearing seatbelts, texting, heat exhaustion, freezing to death, malpractice, starvation, preventable cancer, smoking, drinking..and the list goes on. 

And I bet you don't fear a single one of those things. 

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AnchorSteam
49 minutes ago, Varelse said:

Ummm. Yeah. That's an underlying point. We have much bigger fish to fry in this world than each other. ... 

THANK YOU!

If only people who watch TV could see that, eh?

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Gummug
On 8/30/2018 at 5:47 PM, and then said:

If we are to believe that all or even most of the vitriol that has been spewed against this man is legitimate, then he would have to be worse than any dictator that came before.  There simply is no EVIDENCE of this.  The volume and tenor of sheer hysterical hatred that has inundated the media for two years is completely unprecedented.  There can be no doubt that the media is grossly biased against Trump.  Even factoring in his stupid, classless remarks, the response is nearly pathological.  NO ONE is deserving ot that much energy to induce a public hatred of a single individual.  If you want proof, replace him with any other person, politician, business person....  NONE of them would even come close.  And we are to believe he's really that bad when all he has done is break the accepted rules of civility as designed by Progressive mindsets?  Seriously, what atrocities against Liberty has he committed?  Who has he had imprisoned?  Who has he silenced in the media?  Do his enemies disappear like Putin's?  My tag line says what my beliefs are.  I genuinely believe that U.S.corporate media today is acting as an insurgent 5th column trying to tear this country apart from within.  Without them spewing their toxins 24/7/365, the overall tone of our politics would calm overnight.  As soon as the next Prog is elected president you can watch it happen in real time.  It isn't even a close call to discern this.

As I recall,  wasn't it Obama who imprisoned a movie maker for putting Islam in a bad light?

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F3SS
6 hours ago, Gummug said:

As I recall,  wasn't it Obama who imprisoned a movie maker for putting Islam in a bad light?

That was the Benghazi scapegoat. 

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Gummug
19 hours ago, F3SS said:

That was the Benghazi scapegoat. 

Thanks I had forgotten the details. 

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RoofGardener

Hmmmm...... 

I think what has happened is that there has been a slide to corporatism and left-wing ideology under Obama. Trump stood up for that. As a consequence, a lot of left-wingers reacted against him, and against his statements. 

At the same time, a handfull of right-wing loonies would regard him as their savior, and read all sorts of things into his public statements. 

To exacerbate this, Trump speaks like a regular person, not a politician. He doesn't filter his opinions. That means that some of his statements can seem strident and unpolished. 

Putting this all together; people CAN use his statements as an excuse for violence. But the President is NOT inciting that violence. 

 

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and then
On 8/31/2018 at 2:47 PM, F3SS said:

Like the meme says, if 50m conservative gun owners really were violent, you'd know it. 

It is exactly these kinds of facts that are dismissed and ignored that convince me that the Left isn't serious about a discussion.  They are throwing a temper tantrum because they lost and, like children, think that if they yell, stomp their feet and hold their breath long enough the other side will relent.  They keep upping the ante and creating their own version of reality and sooner or later they will either have to admit defeat or take extreme action.  This Republic has always been a marriage of convenience for people who are willing to set aside their differences for a common good.  When either side refuses that path, America is lost and we become just another 3rd world joke, scrabbling over the ruins.  I think that the most likely outcome of a serious government attempt to crush our Constitutional rights will be a modern expression of secession.  A child of 10 understands how much more difficult it is to put out a fire than to start one.

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seanjo
On 31/08/2018 at 4:35 AM, Varelse said:

Any thorough review of a far right forum's commenters vs. a left wing site's right now will show beyond any doubt the far right has a disturbing attraction to violent fantasies and "fixing" what they don't like by spilling blood.

2

And yet right now and historically it is the left that uses violence and murder. Fascist atrocities are tiny in comparison to left atrocities.

Why is it OK  to be a communist and not a fascist?

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lost_shaman
1 hour ago, seanjo said:

Why is it OK  to be a communist and not a fascist?

Because people are not taught history anymore. Communists like Stalin killed many more people than Hitler did and have thrown many hundreds of Millions more into poverty and extreme oppression.

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RoofGardener
4 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Because people are not taught history anymore. Communists like Stalin killed many more people than Hitler did and have thrown many hundreds of Millions more into poverty and extreme oppression.

As did Chairman Mao. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
11 hours ago, seanjo said:

Why is it OK  to be a communist and not a fascist?

An argument could be made that it is so because communism is the logical endpoint of socialism, and a lot of individual things socialism does are pretty good - the every day socialism of paying for roads, or hospitals or other services you don’t youtself use but you know benefit society in existing. Even the idea that public education exists to benefit the child and society rather than the mill owner so he can have an educated workforce is socialistic. 

Therefore we adopt the position that because we’re okay with soft socialism, we ignore hard socialism’s bloodstained hands and the ideas like dictators and racism and bigotry - the stuff we disapprove of - therefore has to be on the opposite end of the spectrum to us, thus fascist (which is the extreme end of the right wing of the political sprectum, the extreme end of the left wing of the spectrum is anarchy). 

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RAyMO
17 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

so because communism is the logical endpoint of socialism

Is it, can socialism which mainly prefers a mixed economic model of public responsibility and capitalist enterprise not exist indefinitely without morphing into communism?

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Sir Wearer of Hats
19 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Is it, can socialism which mainly prefers a mixed economic model of public responsibility and capitalist enterprise not exist indefinitely without morphing into communism?

I would say “yes it can” but it’s still a train whose final station is communism, even if all the sensible people get off at “socialised healthcare” station before the train gets to “collective farms” junction.

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and then
4 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Is it, can socialism which mainly prefers a mixed economic model of public responsibility and capitalist enterprise not exist indefinitely without morphing into communism?

As soon as political structures came into being that allowed some to rise to authority and to seize portions of the wealth of productive people in the name of all the rest, the society was wholly dependent on the honor and integrity of those at the top.  If educated, thoughtful, and honorable people are making the decisions and demanding something from EVERYONE then "sharing the wealth" for the common good will work. It would require a delicate balance and it would require a population that was committed to some common purpose. Communism is just slavery under a different name.  

I believe that regardless the label placed on it, redistributing the wealth of productive people takes away their incentive to achieve.  Take enough from them and they will either stop producing altogether or fight back.  On the other side of the scale, I believe that non-productive people will never feel they have enough and will eventually come to think of the largesse as being their's by right.  It takes away their dignity and self-worth and a negative spiral of behavior begins. 

I present the example of the Palestinian in Gaza, Lebanon, and Jordan.  An agency of the ever helpful UN decided that the approximately 3/4 million war refugees in Palestine who fled, some say were forced out, from hostilities in 1948, needed succor and the world pitched in to keep them alive with food, shelter, and other basic needs.  I'm sure that the gesture was appreciated by those who fled the war, just as it is appreciated by Syrians today.  But 70 years later, those Palestinians have known nothing but that aid and when even a portion of it gets withheld, they act as though someone is stealing what was their's by right.  I say that not to hijack the thread, just by way of an example of what long-term "kindness" can do to a people that once were industrious.

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and then
5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I would say “yes it can” but it’s still a train whose final station is communism, even if all the sensible people get off at “socialised healthcare” station before the train gets to “collective farms” junction.

Yep... the only question is how long does it take for those in power to become corrupt enough.  The desire to have something for nothing will be with us always.  The only equitable way to solve that problem is to have government that does the absolute LEAST that is necessary in the lives of the people.  I'm thinking of two areas - the lowest taxation and the highest priority in making productive work available for the citizens. When people understand that they must toil for their own living then they will adapt.  Those who are truly unable to contribute in normal ways should be cared for with dignity in return for some effort on their part so that they have the dignity of knowing they are not a burden on the others.  On the whole, I'd say the only Democrat I truly admired would be FDR, and that with caveats.  

He took a population that was on its knees, starving in many cases and gave them hope by providing limited help from the government in exchange for their labor in projects that would benefit the nation.  Had that "help" been removed after the crisis was over, we'd be a LOT better off today.  Johnson's GREAT SOCIETY will eventually be the poison that takes America down.  Those who don't believe that should think about the reaction today if Trump signed an EO saying that all welfare benefits would require some participation in a national system of volunteering.  The number of hours would be negotiable, as would the details of transportation and so on but even if it cost us a reasonable amount, the benefits would far outweigh that cost.  It would return the dignity of work to people.  It would also identify those who refused to do anything, even when physically able.  THAT group deserves no special consideration and if imprisoning them is required then they can work in prison or stay in cells all day with no AC, internet or TV.

Somewhere along the line, we began to lose sight of the need for personal investment in our nation.  My father-in-law was on a destroyer tender off Iwo Jima and when he made it home he trained for a skill and was productive for the rest of his life.  He could be an old codger at times but I respected and admired him greatly.   His highest praise of a man was to call him a "good citizen".  

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I have exactly no problems with a “work for the dole” scheme - providing its implemented by people and not spreadsheets and automated responses.

A mate of mine has shattered their leg, has diabetes and is seeing a psychologist to deal with the ongoing trauma from the incident that shattered his leg.  BUT because each of those individual things, a “broken” leg, diabetes and seeing a psychologist because of trauma are not yet themselves  “disqualifying” he’s expected to work because the all mighty database doesnt compound them together but rather looks at them as individual things, each of which are no reason to not be working. His GP, his therapist and the surgeon who is desperately trying to save his ability to walk all way “this man cannot work”. The database says “yes he can” so if he wanted support he had to work. It took an administrative appeal to move him onto the NDIS rather than “the new start allowance”.

 

BUT if they’re able bodied and able minded, they should be working. Even if it’s doing Meals on Wheels, or working in OP shops or picking up litter in the local parks.

the proof to not be working for the dole should be a report from two of your doctors or one of the doctors approved by the government agency overseeing the dole. If they say “this person cannot work for X period” then for X period they are not expected to sing for their supper if you will.

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TomasaurusREKT

The left is filled with nothing but sheep. It's actually funny watching them. No sense in arguing with them anymore. Just sit back and watch them implode lol.

Edited by TomasaurusREKT

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Sir Wearer of Hats
11 hours ago, TomasaurusREKT said:

The left is filled with nothing but sheep. It's actually funny watching them. No sense in arguing with them anymore. Just sit back and watch them implode lol.

Excuse me, I’m a lefty. 

I just look like a centrist to you because the American left is so full of loud troublemakers and demagogues my quaint principles of letting people succeed without impediment and making sure everyone is healthy, well-fed and educated is drowned out in dogwhistles and the whoosh of improvised weapons against “Nazis”. 

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aztek
On 8/31/2018 at 9:58 PM, Varelse said:

 

If you live in the frightwing media bubble, you'll naturally think masked left wingnuts are the violent scary ones.

that is where you lives, cuz i seen left violence on the streets on my city,never seen far right groups do anything similar.

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Gromdor
40 minutes ago, aztek said:

that is where you lives, cuz i seen left violence on the streets on my city,never seen far right groups do anything similar.

You do live in New York, however.  Almost everyone there is left leaning.   Violence of this nature generally happens when the people involved are in the majority or in power.

I wouldn't advise someone from walking alone down the streets of Chicago yelling, "Trump is great!" for example.

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aztek
Just now, Gromdor said:

You do live in New York, however.  Almost everyone there is left leaning.   Violence of this nature generally happens when the people involved are in the majority or in power.

I wouldn't advise someone from walking alone down the streets of Chicago yelling, "Trump is great!" for example.

nonsense, antifa and ultra left are tiny minority, they cause almost all political violence,  so were the nazis in late 30s. very small group.  violence almost always comes from small groups.

Edited by aztek
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