Habitat Posted September 3, 2018 #251 Share Posted September 3, 2018 The best faith to have, in the absence of any proof, is the faith that the proposition might be, not that it is, that is leaning too far to wishful thinking. That accords better with the words so often heard from the wise, "I don't know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted September 3, 2018 #252 Share Posted September 3, 2018 10 hours ago, Sherapy said: 10 hours ago, Habitat said: Sometimes the objective proof, can only be arrived at, personally. Habit this doesn't make sense. Objective is reality based. Bingo. Yes, it can be arrived at personally. But, I feel it’s going to be the same truth each personal times. I may have not said it very well, my apologies, but that is what I was trying to point out. I think Sheri clarified it for me a lot better. 10 hours ago, Habitat said: psychological realities are the most important realities, in making the world of humans, what it is. I don't know what blood tests would conclusively prove people are "in love", in the sense I described, for all I know, the blood tests would show nothing different to those who feign being in love, who are ecstatic at the thought they have snagged a good partner, but are not "in love" with them. And how would the experimenter know what blood test, matched which condition ? it would depend on honest reportage, and who is going to admit they are faking it ? I think, in the end, it’s the commonalities that speak for themselves. No matter how a personal truth comes to a person, it’s important to them, but still personal. I think, it’s objective, when every personal truth matches exactly each other. One person’s truth, is not the end all to say it is the objective truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 3, 2018 #253 Share Posted September 3, 2018 10 hours ago, Habitat said: ANyone who has been "in love" or truly loved another, two very different things, would not hold with such reductionism. Right. But, I think there should be a distinction between love and lust. Two different things.....IMO. Now, if one can put those two together, I think that's where the fireworks happen. :] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 3, 2018 #254 Share Posted September 3, 2018 11 hours ago, Habitat said: Sometimes the only proof, is the personal experience. Agree. It's like my cousin and her ex-husband who claimed to witness a UFO. She would have never even mentioned it because she's just not a "woo" person at all. She's the opposite of that. Sort of the nurse Rachet/librarian type. Anyway, I love talking about weird stuff, having had weird experiences myself....and the ex proceeds to tell me of this experience, that she did in fact confirm. So, they observed a craft that once they were watching it, morphed into something else. It seemed to change shape and appearance right before their eyes. Do I believe it? I really don't. I would have had to experience it for myself to actually believe it. Is it possible? Yes. I do admit it is. It is possible because it could simply be a type of optical illusion it was as they perceived it.....perhaps even incorrectly.... Or, it could have been real. I do not doubt that they were speaking the truth as they understood it to be.....but the actual truth of it - I have no way of knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted September 3, 2018 #255 Share Posted September 3, 2018 5 hours ago, eight bits said: Perhaps we could all agree that Pilate's question in John, What is truth?, is more complicated than it might first appear. That said, it would be interesting to know whether Faith is a pathway to any sense of truth worthy of the name, or whether any reliable pathway to truth in any worthwhile sense arrives at Faith. Personally, but I don't think I'm the only one, the only kind of truth I'd credit as "worthy of the name" is one where my belief or disbelief didn't matter to the question of whether or not something was true. That is not without consequences (some version of "subject-object duality" would need to hold), but I'm willing to take my chances on those. When it comes to truth and faith, I think it's best to take the chance of wholehearted faith. What can I lose for doing that? Nothing is taken away. Things are only added. I get to have my cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #256 Share Posted September 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Guyver said: Agree. It's like my cousin and her ex-husband who claimed to witness a UFO. She would have never even mentioned it because she's just not a "woo" person at all. She's the opposite of that. Sort of the nurse Rachet/librarian type. Anyway, I love talking about weird stuff, having had weird experiences myself....and the ex proceeds to tell me of this experience, that she did in fact confirm. So, they observed a craft that once they were watching it, morphed into something else. It seemed to change shape and appearance right before their eyes. Do I believe it? I really don't. I would have had to experience it for myself to actually believe it. Is it possible? Yes. I do admit it is. It is possible because it could simply be a type of optical illusion it was as they perceived it.....perhaps even incorrectly.... Or, it could have been real. I do not doubt that they were speaking the truth as they understood it to be.....but the actual truth of it - I have no way of knowing. What premise would you consider that it's possible to see a UFO? For me, a person that is prone to Skepticism claiming a UFO is not reason enough to accept a UFO claim without some supporting evidence. Optical illusion are common place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #257 Share Posted September 3, 2018 19 minutes ago, Guyver said: Right. But, I think there should be a distinction between love and lust. Two different things.....IMO. Now, if one can put those two together, I think that's where the fireworks happen. :] What is wrong with lust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #258 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Habitat said: Reductionist nonsense, the chemicals are not guiding anything, they are concomitant to psychological processes, you might as well say adrenalin guides anger or fear. What caused the adrenalin to flow was a psychological reaction to an external stimulus, or a perceived external situation. "In 2005, Fisher led a research team that published a groundbreaking study that included the first functional MRI (fMRI) images of the brains of individuals in the throes of romantic love. Her team analyzed 2,500 brain scans of college students who viewed pictures of someone special to them and compared the scans to ones taken when the students looked at pictures of acquaintances. Photos of people they romantically loved caused the participants’ brains to become active in regions rich with dopamine, the so-called feel-good neurotransmitter. Two of the brain regions that showed activity in the fMRI scans were the caudate nucleus, a region associated with reward detection and expectation and the integration of sensory experiences into social behavior, and the ventral tegmental area, which is associated with pleasure, focused attention, and the motivation to pursue and acquire rewards." In other words, habit, the cognitive appraisal comes after the biological reaction. http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain Edited September 3, 2018 by Sherapy 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 3, 2018 #259 Share Posted September 3, 2018 30 minutes ago, Sherapy said: What is wrong with lust? Nothing. It's just fine. Purely natural. But I am distinguishing it from love. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 3, 2018 #260 Share Posted September 3, 2018 32 minutes ago, Sherapy said: What premise would you consider that it's possible to see a UFO? For me, a person that is prone to Skepticism claiming a UFO is not reason enough to accept a UFO claim without some supporting evidence. Optical illusion are common place. I don't think a premise is necessary Sherapy. Observing a UFO is common experience. Happens all the time. If what was observed was known, it wouldn't be called a UFO. It would be a KFO.....yes.....I made that up. A known flying object.....also seen all the time. But, to claim that seeing a UFO is somehow the type of experience that requires a premise......I don't understand. Certainly, people who have observed UFO's (and I am in that number) are witnessing some type of flying craft that they don't know how to identify. What that particular craft actually is, is the unknown part. The one that I saw, I;m guessing was some type of stealth glider or other stealth aircraft......probably military? But, IDK. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 3, 2018 #261 Share Posted September 3, 2018 34 minutes ago, Sherapy said: "In 2005, Fisher led a research team that published a groundbreaking study that included the first functional MRI (fMRI) images of the brains of individuals in the throes of romantic love. Her team analyzed 2,500 brain scans of college students who viewed pictures of someone special to them and compared the scans to ones taken when the students looked at pictures of acquaintances. Photos of people they romantically loved caused the participants’ brains to become active in regions rich with dopamine, the so-called feel-good neurotransmitter. Two of the brain regions that showed activity in the fMRI scans were the caudate nucleus, a region associated with reward detection and expectation and the integration of sensory experiences into social behavior, and the ventral tegmental area, which is associated with pleasure, focused attention, and the motivation to pursue and acquire rewards." In other words, habit, the cognitive appraisal comes after the biological reaction. http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain https://aeon.co/essays/the-dopamine-switch-between-atheist-believer-and-fanatic People get 'high' off ideas as well. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 3, 2018 #262 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Faith is a form of expectation, that of some reward. Neurochemicals such as dopamine are part of the reward system. So someone who has faith, has an expectation, and a dopamine high. This could lead to some type of beneficial behavior or something very stupid. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted September 3, 2018 #263 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Will Due said: When it comes to truth and faith, I think it's best to take the chance of wholehearted faith. What can I lose for doing that? Nothing is taken away. Things are only added. I get to have my cake and eat it too. You lose objectivity, rational thinking and un-biasness. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #264 Share Posted September 3, 2018 23 minutes ago, Guyver said: I don't think a premise is necessary Sherapy. Observing a UFO is common experience. Happens all the time. If what was observed was known, it wouldn't be called a UFO. It would be a KFO.....yes.....I made that up. A known flying object.....also seen all the time. But, to claim that seeing a UFO is somehow the type of experience that requires a premise......I don't understand. Certainly, people who have observed UFO's (and I am in that number) are witnessing some type of flying craft that they don't know how to identify. What that particular craft actually is, is the unknown part. The one that I saw, I;m guessing was some type of stealth glider or other stealth aircraft......probably military? But, IDK. Gotcha, you are correct it is my mistake. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #265 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Faith is a form of expectation, that of some reward. Neurochemicals such as dopamine are part of the reward system. So someone who has faith, has an expectation, and a dopamine high. This could lead to some type of beneficial behavior or something very stupid. I was thinking this after I posted, reading a bible, reading the UB seeing an image of relgious significance could be the perceptual impetus that sets off the chemical spike followed by the cognitive appraisal. Excellent point. I think this is why there is a need to validate, rehash the same belief over and over the person is getting a buzz off it. Just my two cents. Edited September 3, 2018 by Sherapy 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted September 3, 2018 Author #266 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Will Due said: When it comes to truth and faith, I think it's best to take the chance of wholehearted faith. What can I lose for doing that? Nothing is taken away. Things are only added. I get to have my cake and eat it too. Basically 'fake it until you make it"? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 3, 2018 #267 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Sherapy said: I think this is why there is a need to validate the same belief over and over the person is getting a buzz off it. Which is why magical thinking, wishful thinking, and confirmation bias is so strong in those of faith. Someone says a prayer, gets a 'sign', confirmation bias kicks in and so does the dopamine reward. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #268 Share Posted September 3, 2018 35 minutes ago, Guyver said: Nothing. It's just fine. Purely natural. But I am distinguishing it from love. I think lust is a wonderful part of love. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #269 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Just now, XenoFish said: Which is why magical thinking, wishful thinking, and confirmation bias is so strong in those of faith. Someone says a prayer, gets a 'sign', confirmation bias kicks in and so does the dopamine reward. Indeed, makes a lot of sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 3, 2018 #270 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Sherapy said: Indeed, makes a lot of sense. It's that magical placebo effect. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted September 3, 2018 #271 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 3, 2018 #272 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Strangely I'm going to give Team Optimism a point. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carminegallo/2017/11/19/brain-science-reveals-the-striking-power-of-optimism/#724e9fec71aa http://www.chemistryislife.com/the-chemistry-of-optimism-vs-pessimism And I'm also going to kick them in the McNuggets. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted September 3, 2018 #273 Share Posted September 3, 2018 42 minutes ago, Sherapy said: I think lust is a wonderful part of love. I certainly enjoy it anyway. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 3, 2018 #274 Share Posted September 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, danydandan said: I certainly enjoy it anyway. Me too, even after many years of marriage it plays an integral role. Thank god! Lol 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted September 3, 2018 #275 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Congratulations. You folks have taken reductionism to where--as an argument against anything--it breaks down and begins devouring it's own tail, since--as piles of the same parts--all things are equal. One then flees back up the ladder to the constituent whole to other philosophies such as Emergentism, to discriminate and illuminate what the sum of those parts produce. Edited September 3, 2018 by Hammerclaw 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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