Is Faith an Accurate Pathway to Truth?

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Congratulations. You folks have taken reductionism to where--as an argument against anything--it breaks down and begins devouring it's own tail, since--as piles of the same parts--all things are equal. One then flees back up the ladder to the constituent whole to such other philosophies such as Emergentism, to discriminate and illuminate what the sum of those parts produce.

Does it even matter?

[lightly]

Love is Faith.

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Does it even matter?

Only to the people it matters to. Things only have the existential meaning we assign to them, subjectively.

[Jodie.Lynne]

17 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Congratulations. You folks have taken reductionism to where--as an argument against anything--it breaks down and begins devouring it's own tail, since--as piles of the same parts--all things are equal. One then flees back up the ladder to the constituent whole to other philosophies such as Emergentism, to discriminate and illuminate what the sum of those parts produce.

Uhm, once again please? In English this time, for us simple minded folk.

[Jodie.Lynne]

9 minutes ago, lightly said:

Love is Faith.

As answers go, this one seems simplistic and lacking somehow.

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Uhm, once again please? In English this time, for us simple minded folk.

Well, in art, for instance, breaking a canvass down to it's constituent parts in no way negates the subjective impact the work of art produces in it's viewer. What you just read is only composed of letter from the alphabet, but the sentence I created and the meaning is above and beyond the simple meaning of the letters.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Hence the term the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. OK, got it.

But I'm still at a loss as to how it relates?

[+Hammerclaw]

38 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Hence the term the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. OK, got it.

But I'm still at a loss as to how it relates?

At a reductionist level, all thoughts are created equal, not different in the parts forming them than from any other thought. You can say all books are the same since they're all made of letters. Reductionism doesn't really apply to everything. What the whole produces is greater than the sum of the parts--hence my reference to Emergent Philosophy.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[lightly]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

As answers go, this one seems simplistic and lacking somehow.

        I know,.     But I wasn't trying to answer the entire topic.....it's just  an observation.    It seemed to me that people were mentioning Love earlier as if it exists as a "thing"....instead of a concept or ,as I believe, an act of faith.

      Is there any actual evidence of Love ?   Loving acts, like buying flowers or candy for a Loved one doesn't constitute evidence of the existence of Love.  ......no more than praying on one's knees proves the existence of God.

But it seems most people accept the existence of Love ?

 

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Congratulations. You folks have taken reductionism to where--as an argument against anything--it breaks down and begins devouring it's own tail, since--as piles of the same parts--all things are equal. One then flees back up the ladder to the constituent whole to other philosophies such as Emergentism, to discriminate and illuminate what the sum of those parts produce.

Indeed hammer, great point, one can't have the subjective without the brain, biology, etc.etc. 

It is not faith versus reality it is how they interconnect, compliment add to. Faith in and of itself is not an all inclusive path, it is an expression of extremism.  

Ceratinly, faith plays a role cognitively, hueristically, and biologically. etc. etc. 

Just like lust plays a part in sexual intimacy.

Just like a mother wears many hats as a parent. 

Just like a married couple are more than a sum of the vows. 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 minutes ago, lightly said:

But it seems most people accept the existence of Love ?

Perhaps, because it can be demonstrated? Kind acts, compassionate acts towards the object of one's love.

Maybe the ultimate sacrifice of giving one's own life to save the one you love. Or by donating an organ.

Love of another can be demonstrated, or 'proven' in so many different, but concrete and observable ways.

Yet faith, in the spiritual sense, MUST be taken on "faith", as it were. A person can commit an act, someone mentioned Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire, that demonstrates their faith in their beliefs, yet that doesn't prove that their beliefs are either true, or well founded.

[+Sherapy]

13 minutes ago, lightly said:

        I know,.     But I wasn't trying to answer the entire topic.....it's just  an observation.    It seemed to me that people were mentioning Love earlier as if it exists as a "thing"....instead of a concept or ,as I believe, an act of faith.

      Is there any actual evidence of Love ?   Loving acts, like buying flowers or candy for a Loved one doesn't constitute evidence of the existence of Love.  ......no more than praying on one's knees proves the existence of God.

But it seems most people accept the existence of Love ?

 

An action of buying a love interest flowers would be sufficient to conclude loving behavior.

If I get flowers from hubby or sons, or friends it is an act of love in some capacity. 

I think what you are trying to say is that their is a subjective cognitive element to love than is personal and unique to the person or persons involved. I accept this is an integral part of love too. 

I think an act of faith shows up at first in the formation of loving relationships, where we go out on a limb, perhaps go on a date with the faith that the person is our type. I do see a bit of faith at work at first, certainly it has to be warranted, substantiated to grow into trust to continue, but at first faith is present. IMHO

Edited September 3, 2018 by Sherapy

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

An action of buying a love interest flowers would be sufficient to conclude loving behavior.

If I get flowers from hubby or sons, or friends it is an act of love in some capacity. 

I think what you are trying to say is that their is a subjective cognitive element to love than is personal and unique to the person or persons involved. I accept this is an integral part of love too. 

I think an act of faith shows up at first in the formation of loving relationships, where we go out on a limb, perhaps go on a date with the faith that the person is our type. I do see a bit of faith a thing work, certainly it has to be warranted to continue, but at first it is present. 

OMG! Sheri, you have grown so much since we first encountered each other here! How did you get so wise?  >HUGS<

[+Sherapy]

8 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Perhaps, because it can be demonstrated? Kind acts, compassionate acts towards the object of one's love.

Maybe the ultimate sacrifice of giving one's own life to save the one you love. Or by donating an organ.

Love of another can be demonstrated, or 'proven' in so many different, but concrete and observable ways.

Yet faith, in the spiritual sense, MUST be taken on "faith", as it were. A person can commit an act, someone mentioned Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire, that demonstrates their faith in their beliefs, yet that doesn't prove that their beliefs are either true, or well founded.

Yes, good point, a person can beleive they love another and the other loves them and by all intents and purposes the coupling is destructive, and the parties involved do not see it. 

This kind of faith blindness does exist, 

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Yes, good point, a person can beleive they love another and the other loves them and by all intents and purposes the coupling is destructive, and the parties involved do not see it. 

This kind of faith blindness does exist, 

Faith blindness can exist in all things. The spouse, devoted to their mate and who cannot see how the mate uses them, harms them, doesn't know what 'love' is; the devoted member of a political party who cheers their candidate, no matter how atrocious the candidates behavior; the follower of a religion, who cannot see the flaws of same, and who makes excuses for the immoral or illogic of their path.

We can all suffer from blindness. The parent who claims "my child would never..." when, they overlook the bad things the child has done in the past.

We can all suffer selective blindness. And we get defensive if someone points out the flaws in our object of worship. We feel that criticism of our "beloved" (whether it is a person, thing, or idea) is an attack on ourselves.

[+Sherapy]

52 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

OMG! Sheri, you have grown so much since we first encountered each other here! How did you get so wise?  >HUGS<

Thank you Jodie, a willingness to take feedback and evaluate my counter as sound as opposed to a need to be right has helped immensely.

I credit the many amazing intelligent posters of UM for helping me refine and challenge my thinking, including you.

And I have taken some college courses that have helped update me.

Coming from you, a person I respect immensely means a lot. There was a time I was not considered anything but a righteous idiot and I deserved the assessment. 

I have been a few of the posters on here, it is not easy to humble oneself to refine. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Sherapy

[lightly]

34 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

An action of buying a love interest flowers would be sufficient to conclude loving behavior.

If I get flowers from hubby or sons, or friends it is an act of love in some capacity. 

I think what you are trying to say is that their is a subjective cognitive element to love than is personal and unique to the person or persons involved. I accept this is an integral part of love too. 

I think an act of faith shows up at first in the formation of loving relationships, where we go out on a limb, perhaps go on a date with the faith that the person is our type. I do see a bit of faith at work at first, certainly it has to be warranted, substantiated to grow into trust to continue, but at first faith is present. IMHO

I hear ya Sherapy,   But , I gotta stand my ground.... I've thought about it for decades.    "an act of love" is not love.  IMHO....   Love cannot be proven any more than any other act of faith.   Giving or receiving Love are acts of faith.       .

  Can Hate (or any other emotion) be seen, or measured, or proven ?  No.  It can be declared and certain acts might elude to it's existence,. But, it can't be proven any more than Love can be proven to exist.

    People can lie.....buy the wife flowers and candy and whatever....and tell her they Love her all to pieces, .and in reality ,. Not love  her at all.

Edited September 3, 2018 by lightly

[Guyver]

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I think lust is a wonderful part of love. 

Me too.  Wawohwawoh.

[+Sherapy]

24 minutes ago, lightly said:

I hear ya Sherapy,   But , I gotta stand my ground.... I've thought about it for decades.    "an act of love" is not love.  IMHO....   Love cannot be proven any more than any other act of faith.   Giving or receiving Love are acts of faith.       .

  Can Hate (or any other emotion) be seen, or measured, or proven ?  No.  It can be declared and certain acts might elude to it's existence,. But, it can't be proven any more than Love can be proven to exist.

    People can lie.....buy the wife flowers and candy and whatever....and tell her they Love her all to pieces, .and in reality ,. Not love  her at all.

If someone came up to you and punched you in the face what would you conclude?

Behavior includes the emotions, the people, and the things in it we call this the observable environment. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Sherapy

[Guyver]

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Which is why magical thinking, wishful thinking, and confirmation bias is so strong in those of faith. Someone says a prayer, gets a 'sign', confirmation bias kicks in and so does the dopamine reward.

Right.....but....on the other hand, there are plenty of religious people who have had experiences that they consider miraculous, or genuine miracles, and even though I'm no longer religious I understand this because it's happened to me.

Now, I do admit that seeing Jesus in your cereal and that kind of stuff is completely whack-a-doo; and that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about here.  

[Guyver]

3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Hence the term the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. OK, got it.

But I'm still at a loss as to how it relates?

Of course, in physical reality - a thing could never be greater than the sum of it's parts though........right?

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Right.....but....on the other hand, there are plenty of religious people who have had experiences that they consider miraculous, or genuine miracles, and even though I'm no longer religious I understand this because it's happened to me.

Now, I do admit that seeing Jesus in your cereal and that kind of stuff is completely whack-a-doo; and that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about here.  

What's your point?

[+Sherapy]

4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Right.....but....on the other hand, there are plenty of religious people who have had experiences that they consider miraculous, or genuine miracles, and even though I'm no longer religious I understand this because it's happened to me.

Now, I do admit that seeing Jesus in your cereal and that kind of stuff is completely whack-a-doo; and that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about here.  

I have to ask what is a genuine miracle, in your opinion. 

What are the specifics?

[Guyver]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

What's your point?

Uh....I believe it was a counter point dear sir.  And with that I must log out to go and do some work that I have been attempting to avoid for at least seven hours.  See yall.  

[Guyver]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I have to ask what is a genuine miracle, in your opinion. 

What are the specifics?

A genuine miracle (IMHO) is an event that defies the laws of physics as we know them.  So, a person like you or me walking through a wall.....not physically possible.  So, if such a thing ever happened - that would be a miracle. 

I mean, that is without breaking a wall.  I've seen a dude go through a wall......but that was no miracle.  It was just pure luck with some skill mixed in.  Have to check out now.  Hope to be back later.