Is Faith an Accurate Pathway to Truth?

[Davros of Skaro]

12 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You act as though you are trying to sell yourself the idea that materialism is the be-all and end-all. But aren't being entirely successful. I can't even say it came as a shock to me, to find out it isn't. There isn't anything to be lost by just leaving it an open question, but if you have that intransigent fixity of ideas, you will pay the price of having that nagging doubt still there. Put it to bed with these words, "I really don't know what may ultimately be". Words to live by.

I do not believe that the material world is all there is. I would not know if it was.

I do fight "Imaginationism" because it obscures potential insight to other possibilities.

 

 

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

I do not believe that the material world is all there is. I would not know if it was.

I do fight "Imaginationism" because it obscures potential insight to other possibilities.

 

 

Well, don't "imagine" that I am a crackpot making stuff up. Allow that I might be, by all means, just don't settle on that as fact, which you certainly imply. I well understand you are not convinced that materialism is all, but I also see you are keen to eradicate your doubts, the question is, why ? Do you have a sense that you gain something if you can do it ? 

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Habitat said:

So that catchphrase means, Eight Bits, that you don't apologize for loving someone, to a third party ? Is that it ?

My guess is that Segal anticipated (wrongly) that the formula for an apology ("I'm sorry") would be instantly recognized as NOT being something that lovers would avoid when interacting with each other. Then the other meaning would emerge (no regrets for having loved), and he'd rack up the credit for having coined a bon mot.

Ooops.

Quote

Anyways, it is alleged that Ryan O'Neal, who starred in the movie, declared it the "dumbest thing I ever heard " !

In the wrong sense, it's easily in the top ten. Like "When the lights go out in a fireworks factory, light a match so you can see where you're going."

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

I do fight "Imaginationism" because it obscures potential insight to other possibilities.

where does the fight end. It's always, "my belief vs. your belief".

People will cultivate a mindset based in whatever belief they hold true. To the point where no amount of logic, reason, or facts will shake it. I can't help but think the effort is ultimately futile. Look at how thing go here. 

[Habitat]

20 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

where does the fight end. It's always, "my belief vs. your belief".

People will cultivate a mindset based in whatever belief they hold true. To the point where no amount of logic, reason, or facts will shake it. I can't help but think the effort is ultimately futile. Look at how thing go here. 

The "fight", such as it is, in largely internal to the person. The more vociferous the opinion, the less certainty behind it, generally speaking. People are commonly impatient with uncertainty, they like a decision, like when you put in an offer on a house purchase, you want to hear a yea or a nay. I think people prefer a stable framework of understanding, rather than doubts.

[Habitat]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

My guess is that Segal anticipated (wrongly) that the formula for an apology ("I'm sorry") would be instantly recognized as NOT being something that lovers would avoid when interacting with each other. Then the other meaning would emerge (no regrets for having loved), and he'd rack up the credit for having coined a bon mot.

Ooops.

In the wrong sense, it's easily in the top ten. Like "When the lights go out in a fireworks factory, light a match so you can see where you're going."

OK, I am seeing this deeper meaning emerging from the fog, "don't  apologize for what was done purely out of love". I will claim it !

Edited September 17, 2018 by Habitat

[lightly]

I'm just curious if any of you who believe faith is completely useless....believe there is some value in the power of positive thinking ? ? ? ? ?

i wonder what "studies" reveal on the subject ?   

Faith  hopes for power from outside one's self.....whereas a belief in some inherent value in Positive Thinking is a belief in one's self ?   ....being able to influence outcomes.

Or do most of you believe both are useless ?  ...like I say.....just curious as to your views...I'm not sure what I think !

[danydandan]

23 minutes ago, lightly said:

I'm just curious if any of you who believe faith is completely useless....believe there is some value in the power of positive thinking ? ? ? ? ?

i wonder what "studies" reveal on the subject ?   

Faith  hopes for power from outside one's self.....whereas a belief in some inherent value in Positive Thinking is a belief in one's self ?   ....being able to influence outcomes.

Or do most of you believe both are useless ?  ...like I say.....just curious as to your views...I'm not sure what I think !

Would you consider having confidence in oneself as positive thinking? I feel self confidence is paramount to being successful in any endeavour.

But with that being said I don't think positive thinking will increase the likelihood of someone winning the lotto or something.

Edited September 17, 2018 by danydandan

[XenoFish]

There's always a drawback to positive thinking.

[lightly]

Ok, thanks you guys.   Ya,. I was just curious if some of you ,who believe faith has no positive benefit,.  Might believe that positive thinking might actually influence outcomes.

not talking about self confidence,danydandan, I guess most people would acknowledge benefit from that.. Not sure exactly how that actually works however.

[danydandan]

48 minutes ago, lightly said:

Ok, thanks you guys.   Ya,. I was just curious if some of you ,who believe faith has no positive benefit,.  Might believe that positive thinking might actually influence outcomes.

not talking about self confidence,danydandan, I guess most people would acknowledge benefit from that.. Not sure exactly how that actually works however.

I suppose it depends on how confident you are in your positive thinking. Will this positivity result in tangible actions? If so then there is always the potential for results dependent upon actions taken. So if your not confident you won't take the same actions as you would if your were confident. 

Confidence, self confidence and positive thinking are branch's off the same tree.

[Rlyeh]

15 hours ago, pallidin said:

Well, by current scientific standards physicists understand only an estimated 4% of our Universe.

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/universe-physics-laws-energy-329/amp/

And this means what? Faith is lack of understanding? God lives in the 96% which is human ignorance?

[danydandan]

32 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

And this means what? Faith is lack of understanding? God lives in the 96% which is human ignorance?

It's idiotic comments like the one you replied to, makes me wonder sometimes.

The laws of physics are Universal we certainly know alot more than 4% of what's going on.

[Guyver]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

where does the fight end. It's always, "my belief vs. your belief".

People will cultivate a mindset based in whatever belief they hold true. To the point where no amount of logic, reason, or facts will shake it. I can't help but think the effort is ultimately futile. Look at how thing go here. 

Since I've been back, I've seen at least two or three others beside myself who have changed their beliefs.....maybe as a result of this place.  So, I wouldn't call it futile.  But in general, I do understand your point and you are right.  

[Guyver]

42 minutes ago, danydandan said:

The laws of physics are Universal 

Except in places where they are not.....like black holes.  :]

[Guyver]

4 hours ago, lightly said:

I'm just curious if any of you who believe faith is completely useless....believe there is some value in the power of positive thinking ? ? ? ? ?

i wonder what "studies" reveal on the subject ?   

Faith  hopes for power from outside one's self.....whereas a belief in some inherent value in Positive Thinking is a belief in one's self ?   ....being able to influence outcomes.

Or do most of you believe both are useless ?  ...like I say.....just curious as to your views...I'm not sure what I think !

I think there is absolutely value in positive thinking.  I believe it because to a large degree....people can accomplish what they set out to, assuming the goals are realistic of course.  

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Except in places where they are not.....like black holes.  :]

That's just because we can observe inside one. If we assume all black holes are the same then, if a law is derived from observations then they are still Universal.

[Guyver]

46 minutes ago, danydandan said:

It's idiotic comments like the one you replied to, makes me wonder sometimes.

The laws of physics are Universal we certainly know alot more than 4% of what's going on.

Did you read the article?  It seems like it would be right up your alley.  I'm surprised to hear you call it idiotic.  

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Did you read the article?  It seems like it would be right up your alley.  I'm surprised to hear you call it idiotic.  

Did indeed, it was interesting. But I disagree.

[lightly]

Thanks danydandan and Guyver,. Ya...the personal example of positive thinking which always comes to mind is

when I was working a job which involved walking miles per day through forests and swamps....being a pack mule basically for much of it....and then hanging out in between....dealing with insects and weather....  Anyway, as I walked/packed I would think about how every step I took was getting me closer to my goal of buying a piece of acerage for cash...Which Happened after 5 years of this routine.  So anyway, ya, I'm familiar with positive thinking and the positive results which are possible.

i got off on this tangent thinking about how faith and positive thinking can be somewhat similar ?  

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Since I've been back, I've seen at least two or three others beside myself who have changed their beliefs.....maybe as a result of this place.  So, I wouldn't call it futile.  But in general, I do understand your point and you are right.  

I don't know if this place was good for me or not. Would I be happier if I was still dumb and full of magical thinking or am I better off being more educated, nihilistic and cynical? 

[Habitat]

4 hours ago, danydandan said:

 

The laws of physics are Universal we certainly know alot more than 4% of what's going on.

Unless you know what the 100% is, you have no idea what % you have "ownership" of, yes ?

[danydandan]

18 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Unless you know what the 100% is, you have no idea what % you have "ownership" of, yes ?

Yeah obviously. It's a stupid statement to make from a PhD holder whom is an Astrophysicist.

But considering, we know how stars are formed, how planets are formed, why they rotate, how they rotate, we can know the composition if their atmospheres, we know there distance. We basically know with a great degree of certainty a vast amount just regarding astrophysics. Now take classical physics, chemistry, biology, quantum physics, mathematics we know with certainty a great deal in each subject which they all encompass our entire field of knowledge. For someone to, first of all with out knowing how much we don't know, estimate a figure of what we do know is idiotic.

But if anyone read the article, what he is talking about is how much of the Universe we know about, and he means observable Universe, what he is suggesting is that we have 'mapped' with certainty about 4% of the observable Universe. I'm not an astrophysicist so I can't say if he's wrong or right. But with that 4% I'd be skeptical, considering there is 100-200billion galaxies estimated within the 13.7billion light years we can observe. We have mapped or named like 100million. So what's that 1%?

This is a prime example of someone taking something out if context.

Edited September 17, 2018 by danydandan

[SHaYap]

14 hours ago, eight bits said:

As in 3ye's vid, love sometimes involves saying you're sorry for what isn't remotely a fault (being born unable to speak and hear). I believe Segal's intent was more like:

Ta 8b ...

I found that the things left unsaid dimension to that little Magi Gift tale gets missed most times, the hubby was saying sorry for not being able to give the wifey that dream life promised perhaps , and the wifey is just saying sorry times are bad but things will get better ... its just as simple as that I guess

~

[Davros of Skaro]

13 hours ago, Habitat said:

Well, don't "imagine" that I am a crackpot making stuff up. Allow that I might be, by all means, just don't settle on that as fact, which you certainly imply. I well understand you are not convinced that materialism is all, but I also see you are keen to eradicate your doubts, the question is, why ? Do you have a sense that you gain something if you can do it ? 

Just learn to be more critical in your thinking, then you will understand. 

But you can't do that. I know why, and the evidence to back it up.

12 hours ago, XenoFish said:

where does the fight end. It's always, "my belief vs. your belief".

People will cultivate a mindset based in whatever belief they hold true. To the point where no amount of logic, reason, or facts will shake it. I can't help but think the effort is ultimately futile. Look at how thing go here. 

We may never know what influences this dialogue backed by evidence might have. Is it not that good enough?