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Jodie.Lynne

Is Faith an Accurate Pathway to Truth?

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cormac mac airt
57 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I spent a chunk of my life summoning various gods, I got nothing. Sure a few weird dreams, but in the long run nada. And yet for some stupid illogical reason I'm supposed to believe or else. I used to be a magician, not the card trick variety. The magic circle kind in long robes and midnight evocation. I loved that life. But. The more I learned about the mind and the more I learned about the science of it all. The fun and magic of it all died, I died. It became nothing more than a glorified system of self-affirmations. The very thing that gave my life structure, discipline, and meaning was gone. 

A question If I may, why did you believe that a god or gods, if they exist, WANT or even desire to be summoned/worshipped/etc.? There's no reason to think that such are in any way beholden to us for any reason. Likely IMO seeing us in much the same way we see a single celled organism, interesting but irrelevant to his/her/its existance.

IMO you were relying on something more than yourself when there is really no need as again YOU give your life structure, discipline and meaning beyond childhood anyway. Just my 2 cents. 

cormac

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cormac mac airt
59 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Yeah, I could have been more gentle with the wording. My specific belief is very few will be damned. Most who turned away will realize what is happening and repent at the Last Judgement. 

I meant removing one self from a source of comfort, like turning away from extended family or friends, rather then trying to understand them. Not saying that is the only source of comfort...

And you are entitled to your belief, even though I don't believe in a Biblical Last Judgement. IMO it's nothing more than a scare tactic. 

cormac

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

A question If I may, why did you believe that a god or gods, if they exist, WANT or even desire to be summoned/worshipped/etc.? There's no reason to think that such are in any way beholden to us for any reason. Likely IMO seeing us in much the same way we see a single celled organism, interesting but irrelevant to his/her/its existance.

IMO you were relying on something more than yourself when there is really no need as again YOU give your life structure, discipline and meaning beyond childhood anyway. Just my 2 cents. 

cormac

Very much for the same reason a Christian prays to god. Vested interest. 

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cormac mac airt
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Very much for the same reason a Christian prays to god. Vested interest. 

I have a vested interest in taking care of myself and my family. Beyond that I have no interest in talking to some made up entity in order to make myself feel better about life. Thanks for your reply Xeno. 

cormac

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XenoFish

Damn it wrong thread.

Edited by XenoFish
Wrong thread

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I have a vested interest in taking care of myself and my family. Beyond that I have no interest in talking to some made up entity in order to make myself feel better about life. Thanks for your reply Xeno. 

cormac

I take care of my family, it's my job. If I didn't sacrifice my wellbeing so my wife can be taken care of what kind of person would I be? People seem to think I am some heartless monster. I'm not. I just can't find a personal meaning to my life, so I do the only thing I know how to do. Keep my vows.

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cormac mac airt
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

I really wonder about the mental state of anyone who would avidly read the OT. I suppose it provides a contrast to the "enlightened" message of the NT. But no-one should read any religious text, unless it excites their interest, in my opinion. Follow your nose to wherever the trail leads, but force-feeding of it, is madness.

I actually wonder about the mental state of anyone who reads BOTH the OT and NT and STILL believes that they can reconcile each version as one and the same 'loving' deity. It blows my mind.

cormac

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cormac mac airt
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I take care of my family, it's my job. If I didn't sacrifice my wellbeing so my wife can be taken care of what kind of person would I be? People seem to think I am some heartless monster. I'm not. I just can't find a personal meaning to my life, so I do the only thing I know how to do. Keep my vows.

FWIW Xeno I don't think you're heartless, never even entered my mind. Misguided perhaps at some point in thinking that the Abrahamic religions definition of God, or something similar, MUST have your best interests at heart. You're doing awesome. 

cormac

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XenoFish
Just now, cormac mac airt said:

FWIW Xeno I don't think you're heartless, never even entered my mind. Misguided perhaps at some point in thinking that the Abrahamic religions definition of God, or something similar, MUST have your best interests at heart. You're doing awesome. 

cormac

Thanks, but honestly I don't know why I bother with the spirituality sections much anymore. I'm just sick of that subtle little "voice" in the back of my mind telling me that "god hates me for existing." that no matter how good I am, I'll be punished. That's what pushes me away from religion. Fire and brimstone. Never good enough ideology. 

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cormac mac airt
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Thanks, but honestly I don't know why I bother with the spirituality sections much anymore. I'm just sick of that subtle little "voice" in the back of my mind telling me that "god hates me for existing." that no matter how good I am, I'll be punished. That's what pushes me away from religion. Fire and brimstone. Never good enough ideology. 

You need to take that subtle little voice out behind the barn and whoop its ---. It's wrong. Wish I had some better words of encouragement. 

cormac

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XenoFish
Just now, cormac mac airt said:

You need to take that subtle little voice out behind the barn and whoop its ---. It's wrong. Wish I had some better words of encouragement. 

cormac

It's not your fault. Here's the thing. I started practicing magick as a blasphemy, a rebellion against that voice. If I was damned, might as well go all in. It was very self empowering all admit. Honestly miss it....

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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

It's not your fault. Here's the thing. I started practicing magick as a blasphemy, a rebellion against that voice. If I was damned, might as well go all in. It was very self empowering all admit. Honestly miss it....

Rebellion takes many forms and is used in many ways. IMO you just went from one extreme to another. There/s PLENTY of middle ground IMO. No need to see it as an "either/or" situation. I let that mindset go decades ago. There's plenty of room for another person Xeno. 

cormac

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XenoFish
13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Rebellion takes many forms and is used in many ways. IMO you just went from one extreme to another. There/s PLENTY of middle ground IMO. No need to see it as an "either/or" situation. I let that mindset go decades ago. There's plenty of room for another person Xeno. 

cormac

Perhaps.

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NewAge1
9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Numbers do not equal correctness. I only meant progress in that the numbers of Christians (percentage wise) is still increasing. Which was in rebuttal to the supposition that Christianity is failing.

We are entering a New Age. Where Christians believe in reincarnation, are sitting to practice Buddhist meditation, or consulting for a Tarot reading. In the West, the belief in a ''flesh and blood savior'' returning to earth is no longer taken seriously, instead people are rediscovering the gnostics and the ''Christ within''.

Edited by NewAge1
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DieChecker
14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Sorry. I don't mean to be so short tempered with you. I'm just frustrated. Tired of so many things, too many dark clouds. Not your fault. 

I did pray for you. For a pushing back of those clouds. I hope you are feeling better then you were.

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third_eye

Let's kick this can of worms down another alley ...

~

~

Science and the Swastika : Hitler's Biological Soldiers - YouTube
[00.48:20]

~

Its a sobering watch, just under an hour, keep an ear out for these parts :

  1. " ... it was the opposite"
  2. " ... making ... taking a Gigantic leap of faith"
  3. ".. they were idiots ... "

~

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lightly

I don't see God as being like us.....sort of in our 'image'.. but way older and wiser or something.  I think God is beyond our understanding   or ability to explain or describe.   

    ...maybe somehow the essence of all life and conciousness  and (BEING).  ??     Do "we".... (scientists) really understand so completely the mystery of life and being ?    I dun think so....or I wonder anyway.  

But maybe oddly enough ,  I believe there is something to the power of prayer and even words.... (I've seen things happen in life)

           Just a thought on a different note... People can have faith in things that do demonstrate some degree of "testable "repeatable" "solid" evidence ?  .. Things like the sun "coming up" in the morning....or spring following winter this year....but it ain't necessarily so ?

Edited by lightly

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Jodie.Lynne
1 hour ago, lightly said:

People can have faith in things that do demonstrate some degree of "testable "repeatable" "solid" evidence ?  .. Things like the sun "coming up" in the morning.

I think you are confusing "reasonable expectations" with "belief without evidence".

Do I "believe" the sun will rise tomorrow? Yes, just as it has done for the last 100 million years. Unless, or course, something drastic happens within the core of the star and we all die. There is a substantial history and evidence of the sun rising, 'faith' is not required... And, not to be pedantic, but the sun doesn't 'rise', our planetary rotation brings our position around to face the sun for approximately 12 of every 24 hours.

1 hour ago, lightly said:

Things like the sun "coming up" in the morning....or spring following winter this year....but it ain't necessarily so ?

Please explain what you mean by this, I haven't a clue what you are trying to say

Edited by Jodie.Lynne

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Yes, just as it has done for the last 100 million years

Rather longer than that, of course, it is quite staggering to think that there have been more than a trillion sunrises on Earth.

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lightly
10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

 

Please explain what you mean by this, I haven't a clue what you are trying to say

 I said people can have faith in the sun "coming up"  < in quotes to indicate that I realize the sun does not actually rise.

or that spring will follow winter...and that it ain't necessarily so.....  I think you understood because you responded that something could happen to the sun .   (Or the earth) 

you said you BELIEVE  the sun will "rise"  in the morning ,based on it's long history of doing so.   I guess there can be a fundamental difference between Belief and Faith ...depending on how one wants to interpret the words?

i Guess I was just trying to say that people can have faith, or belief, in things that won't necessarily happen....no matter how much past evidence indicates that it "should" happen.     Granted...it's a somewhat odd and ambiguous point...it's how my mind works.  ;o)

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DieChecker

The problem with defining something like Faith is that different people are going to disagree on what the word means and how it can be used.

People who are religious are going to say things like, "We have faith the Sun will raise.", because to them they're thinking how the Sun coming up 100% of the time is similar to how God is with us, and in relationship with us, 100% of the time. God being real has the same odds as the Sun coming up. They believe both at the same level. Thus a parallel comparing the two would seem obvious. 

One might say.... "But the evidence says the Sun will come up every morning, and there is no evidence of God." But that would be overly simple, as to each person their personal experience is often the greatest influence, and they believe they experience God every day... so...

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lightly

Interesting DieChecker.    I guess what I was trying to make a point of to Jodie is that faith, belief, and even evidence can all be wrong at times.   The sunrise thing is actually a perfect example of that....in that people once had no doubt that the sun rose,traveled across the sky, and then set. (and traveled through some underworld at night) ....they could see the observable "evidence" with thier own eyes that the sun moved across the sky.   Of course we now know they were wrong.

i'm sure there will be other examples of things we now are convinced we have "evidence" of which will be proven inaccurate .

sometimes observable "facts" can be of no more actual value than belief...is the screwywompus "point" I'm trying to make .

:0 )

Edited by lightly
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jugoso
On 29/9/2018 at 7:05 AM, DieChecker said:

The problem with defining something like Faith is that different people are going to disagree on what the word means and how it can be used.

People who are religious are going to say things like, "We have faith the Sun will raise.", because to them they're thinking how the Sun coming up 100% of the time is similar to how God is with us, and in relationship with us, 100% of the time. God being real has the same odds as the Sun coming up. They believe both at the same level. Thus a parallel comparing the two would seem obvious. 

One might say.... "But the evidence says the Sun will come up every morning, and there is no evidence of God." But that would be overly simple, as to each person their personal experience is often the greatest influence, and they believe they experience God every day... so...

I find this to draw a pretty good distinction. 

Quote

Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

It's ffrom the Urantia Book which I'm not interested in discussing but the differentiation works for me.

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