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Scudbuster

What, no bible study...?

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Emma_Acid
On 01/09/2018 at 11:15 PM, and then said:

...businesses that are making a goodwill effort to help solve addiction and crime problems on a local level.

That's one hell of a spin you have there.

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Jodie.Lynne

Walker, you do seem to have a difficult time grasping this simple concept. 

Would it be fair for you to attend a local town meeting and monopolize the time by telling of your religious experiences and not allowing others to express their own?

How about if you went round posting placards about your faith, but denying anyone else the same privilege?

There is a world of difference between being given the right to practice your faith, and the presumed right to dictate your faith to others.

You want to put a statue of Jesus on the front lawn of the county court building? Fine, we can put it right next to the statue of Zeus. What's that you say? "Zeus offends your religious sensibilities?" Oh my, well then I guess we won't have any statues to gods or religious icons on public property.

 

No one is saying you can't believe in your god, we are saying that if YOU want to hold a monopoly on expressing it and denying others the same rights, then you are dead wrong.

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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Emma_Acid
On 02/09/2018 at 2:39 PM, and then said:

An alcoholic that is sincerely seeking sobriety would welcome such a gift that he was offering.

Speaking as someone with alcoholics in their immediate family, I call full-on police-car-siren BS on this statement. Total holier-than-thou bullcrap that verges on the offensive.

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Liquid Gardens
10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Actually, according to most labor laws in the US, none of your scenarios are technically legal, since none of them are directly work related.

Which labor laws are those? This specific case is illegal under Civil Rights law because of the religion discrimination part. Where do the laws define the word 'work'?  I'm pretty sure it's legal if someone wants to employ people to sit around listening to Elvis, but if you combine it with a construction job it's illegal?  I'm not sure that's actually the case.

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jmccr8
10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Actually, according to most labor laws in the US, none of your scenarios are technically legal, since none of them are directly work related.

And I do give the employer credit for this. Sincerely I do. But does that allow him to dictate how people are allowed to choose how they maintain their sobriety? And the fact that the employee was fired for ONLY refusing to attend these sessions, as far as we know, is totally illegal.

Hi Jodie

Many employers will send an employee to rehab rather than fire an individual noncompliance is cause for dismissal. Many companies here do random pi** testing and can be fired for failure or refusal, an employee known to  have a history can be subjected to routine testing and this is well within the labour laws here because of safety.

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
22 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Walker, you do seem to have a difficult time grasping this simple concept. 

Would it be fair for you to attend a local town meeting and monopolize the time by telling of your religious experiences and not allowing others to express their own?

How about if you went round posting placards about your faith, but denying anyone else the same privilege?

There is a world of difference between being given the right to practice your faith, and the presumed right to dictate your faith to others.

You want to put a statue of Jesus on the front lawn of the county court building? Fine, we can put it right next to the statue of Zeus. What's that you say? "Zeus offends your religious sensibilities?" Oh my, well then I guess we won't have any statues to gods or religious icons on public property.

 

No one is saying you can't believe in your god, we are saying that if YOU want to hold a monopoly on expressing it and denying others the same rights, then you are dead wrong.

Don't personalise this.

i have been commenting on the american constitution  and the restrictions it puts on religion in govt, plus on the rights and wrongs of a case like this especially in Australia  where we interpret the same words quire differently. 

Ive already explained my view.

Rather  than banning all religious activities in govt ALL should be equally embraced and given equal standing under law, as should atheism.

So yep put up a hundred statues in your park including one of Richard Dawkins. The Monkey King and THOR (hopefully modelled on Chris Hemsworth)     Allow everyone to carry placards and to dress in religious clothing/wear religious icons     Give freedom of expression to all faiths and beliefs at public meetings. 

The danger in failing to do this can already be seen in some countries, including Australia, where a minority is putting under threat things like Christmas carols or nativity plays in school   concerts or banning the celebration of any religious services and celebrations;  or preventing people from wearing items of religious faith to work or even in public 

Luckily we have some protections against this in Australia but it is not stopping those who wish to end ALL religious forms, ceremonies, functions, and expressions of identity.   

The argument is not about, and never has been about, a monopoly. It is about the right of anyone, and all people, to  freely express their religious or non religious beliefs openly in any forum. If you can't do that, then  you are not living in a free country.  

A govt should make no laws restricting the freedom of religious belief, in practice, EXCEPT where those beliefs  contravene other basic human rights  and laws.  

Eg wear what you like, pray as you wish, in both private and public,  but you cant practice female genital mutilation, slavery, or child marriage. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Galactic Goatman
On 9/1/2018 at 6:46 PM, GlitterRose said:

I'm not sure what the point would be to forcing someone to attend a bible study.

An employer might be able to pressure their workers into attending if they aren't aware that isn't legal, but no one can ever force anyone to believe. 

 

The Knights Templar would beg to differ. 

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GoldenWolf
On 9/5/2018 at 3:44 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

You want to put a statue of Jesus on the front lawn of the county court building? Fine, we can put it right next to the statue of Zeus. What's that you say? "Zeus offends your religious sensibilities?" Oh my, well then I guess we won't have any statues to gods or religious icons on public property.

Nothing would offend them more than something like this:

anubis_sphinx_bykarima.jpg

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Doug1029
On 9/3/2018 at 3:11 AM, Mr Walker said:

Rather than violate any agreement,  the agreement might not have been explicit enough, and made clear before employment commenced.  

I wonder if "you" worked at a Catholic school, and staff meetings began with prayers for the well being of all, if you could get away with not attending them?  

Vague agreements are what make attorneys rich.

In the US, an employer is not supposed to be able to compel attendance at Bible classes.  However, if compelled, I could have some fun with those classes:  there are alternate explanations to nearly everything in that Bible.  Example:  Contrary to Christian belief, there ARE other gods which the Bible mentions by name.  There's a good case to be made that Jesus DID NOT die on the cross and thus is not god, endowed with any magical powers, making Christianity invalid in its basic premise.  One could also make a case that Jesus is the false god that the Bible warns against.  Etc., etc.  I'd probably be fired for heresy.

Doug

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Doug1029
On 9/9/2018 at 10:54 AM, AustinHinton said:

The Knights Templar would beg to differ. 

And the Knights Templar got exterminated for their opinions/wealth/power.

Doug

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Doug1029
On 9/6/2018 at 4:37 AM, Mr Walker said:

Rather  than banning all religious activities in govt ALL should be equally embraced and given equal standing under law, as should atheism.

Prayer and "religious education" on govt time is theft from the employers (taxpayers).  Those ordering it should be promptly fired.

If employees were not compelled to attend, they should be fired, too.  But, if attendance was compulsory, then perhaps, the employee can be excused.

 

Private employers are stricted from enforcing their religion on employees; although, some try to.

Doug

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Stubbly_Dooright
9 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:
On 9/9/2018 at 11:54 AM, AustinHinton said:
GlitterRose said: 

I'm not sure what the point would be to forcing someone to attend a bible study.

An employer might be able to pressure their workers into attending if they aren't aware that isn't legal, but no one can ever force anyone to believe. 

——————————-

The Knights Templar would beg to differ. 

And the Knights Templar got exterminated for their opinions/wealth/power.

Doug

 Upon recently reading up on them, they may be great on security so to speak and financial planning ( if I got that correct )  but, how was their techniques in conversion? 

And, I think that also is different compared to making someone believe differently than what they believe. I think Glitter Rose  was right and made a good point, I don’t think you really can make or force someone to believe differently.  I think those could be forced to hide behind what they are supposed to believe and do it out of fear. But, I really don’t think anyone can honestly change what they believe in all honestly of themselves.  

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Doug1029
23 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

 Upon recently reading up on them, they may be great on security so to speak and financial planning ( if I got that correct )  but, how was their techniques in conversion? 

And, I think that also is different compared to making someone believe differently than what they believe. I think Glitter Rose  was right and made a good point, I don’t think you really can make or force someone to believe differently.  I think those could be forced to hide behind what they are supposed to believe and do it out of fear. But, I really don’t think anyone can honestly change what they believe in all honestly of themselves.  

The Knights Templar had loaned King Phillip IV of France a large amount of money which he was having trouble repaying.  The Knights had large financial holdings all over the known world and had made a lot of enemies along the way.  The destruction of the Knights Templar on October 13, 1307 was essentially, a military coup against their leadership.  The coup abolished Phillip's debt and gained lands and royalties from the dead hand of the Knights.

I agree with GlitterRose.

Doug

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Podo
On 9/10/2018 at 9:12 AM, MysticWolf said:

Nothing would offend them more than something like this:

anubis_sphinx_bykarima.jpg

Personally I'd love to have one of those on the courthouse lawn. That's some exquisite workmanship.

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Galactic Goatman
On 9/12/2018 at 11:04 AM, Doug1o29 said:

And the Knights Templar got exterminated for their opinions/wealth/power.

Doug

I know, that was my point Mr. Doug. ;)

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Mr Walker
On 13/09/2018 at 12:41 AM, Doug1o29 said:

Prayer and "religious education" on govt time is theft from the employers (taxpayers).  Those ordering it should be promptly fired.

If employees were not compelled to attend, they should be fired, too.  But, if attendance was compulsory, then perhaps, the employee can be excused.

 

Private employers are stricted from enforcing their religion on employees; although, some try to.

Doug

First its different in Australia There is not the antagonism to religion which appears to exist in America possibly because religion is not as pushy and more integrated into Australian life. People's rights to religious expression incuding non expression are protected in a workplace.  Generally activities would not occur in paid time unless this was a part of a workplace agreement but forvexample a muslim would be excused for the periods required for prayer because their right to prayer is enshrined in legislation Many places from parliaments to govt schools have formal prayers either at fixed times or in respone to need like a local tragedy Many  large govt institutions   including schools and hospitals have chaplains from different faiths paid for by the govt.

However as medicine and science increasingly recognises the power of faith and religion in human well being,  there is also a recognition that part of an employer's requirement to provide health and safety in a work place can involve  providing opportunity for an employee to practice their faith and not deny expression of it through prayer or dress requirements

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Doug1029

Had an interesting experience yesterday.

I was at the post office parking lot.  There was a large, expensive car blocking the drive with an Episcopal priest in his robes at the wheel.  It was a stick shift and he was having a lot of trouble getting it to go anywhere.  Behind him was a farmer in an old pickup who was very agitated about the drive being blocked.  He stormed up to the car and vented his wrath at the priest, then went back to his truck and turned around, coming in another drive.

I went up to the priest and asked what the problem was.  He said he was having trouble with this "devil of a car."  I just started laughing:  "Here I am, an atheist, helping an Episcopal priest fight with the devil."  We both had a good laugh and I showed him how to operate a clutch.  I last saw him driving out of the parking lot, still having trouble, but at least, moving forward.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029
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