Thoughts on religious wisdom

[8th_wall]

Regardless of one's views regarding religion or Buddhist philosophy I think I've noticed something especially worthy of consideration regarding the notion of judgement suspension.  Either to be left to Jesus or not passed at all.  That is, despite how critically important one feels what one has to share it is far better to leave it to "the perfect man" (sone expert with worthy following) or to disregard it completely.

I've noticed that regardless of what one's conjectures, axioms, opinions or what have you if one is backed by some body of support, whatever one's views, regardless of completeness or correctness, is fully suspect to any and all judgement, dismissive, agreeing, disagreeing or correcting.  I've noticed that if there isn't some preceding implicit worth generally recognisable of the author then the vast majority of people are more inclined to pass judgement, where judgement is what one voices as one's own perceptions and not a critical review of what is actually spoken or written.  In doing this any value that might be inherent within what is shared is lost.

I'm inclined to think that review is far more difficult than perception sharing and seems to be a total waste of one's time at the end of the day.

Ideally a discussion of any sort would have some sets of observations or perceptions followed by review where clarification of the current set of views under scrutiny is the only other undergoing.  This is especially difficult to manage in the spoken word I'm inclined to think.

I feel like this is the only real differing factor that sets Science and Mathematics apart from other bodies of discourse.

I would add that there doesn't seem to be anything particularly wrong in one's natural internal response to whatever one comes across.  Judgement being an external aspect, not internal, unless meditating, in particular.

Edited September 5, 2018 by PsiSeeker

[Habitat]

It seems  that after many of the great mystics had their moment of illumination, they really couldn't help but "gabble to the rabble" about their experience, despite admitting it is, effectively, untransmissable. Science and mathematics, not so. Does this mean one is lower in importance than the other ? Well, only who has been there, might opine accurately. But the great difference remains, that the mystic "secret", simply cannot be revealed or divulged, by the methods of science and mathematics.

[docyabut2]

Studied  them all  do you want to know? a lot of people believed  didn't exist in the history  the Buda and Jesus did exist but I do:) 

Edited September 5, 2018 by docyabut2

[Habitat]

47 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Studied  them all  do you want to know? a lot of people believed  didn't exist in the history  the Buda and Jesus did exist but I do:) 

I very much doubt you have studied them all, and I would posit that a great many of this ilk, are not known in the historical record, it is probably more a case of vagaries and  happenstance elevating a few to present day prominence. But, we have a generic description of these people's contributions, for which the term, the "perennial philosophy". has been coined. And the striking aspect, the consistency of their reportage.

[Piney]

On 9/5/2018 at 4:21 AM, Habitat said:

I very much doubt you have studied them all, and I would posit that a great many of this ilk, are not known in the historical record, it is probably more a case of vagaries and  happenstance elevating a few to present day prominence. But, we have a generic description of these people's contributions, for which the term, the "perennial philosophy". has been coined. And the striking aspect, the consistency of their reportage.

There was no historical record of Jesus. Josephus was talking about Jesus Ben Ananias. 

[Habitat]

Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.

Meister Eckhart

[Mr Guitar]

Religious wisdom, to me, is like military intelligence - a contradiction in terms. Religion (and the idea of god/gods) was first put forth by the ignorant as some sort of protection against that which was not  understood. It was and still is  a means for the elite to control the 'sheeple'. "If you don't believe in our savior, then you're going to hell in a hand basket" is how it's most often put among the catholics, christians, muslims of the world - "it's our way our way or the highway"! We no longer have fertility gods, weather gods, gods of war, gods of love - they've all been scientifically proven to be useless constructs. I predict that, in time, religions in general will lose their hold on most of humanity.

[8th_wall]

On 9/5/2018 at 5:12 PM, Habitat said:

It seems  that after many of the great mystics had their moment of illumination, they really couldn't help but "gabble to the rabble" about their experience, despite admitting it is, effectively, untransmissable.

Lack of transmissability illuminates something about people in general, speaks nothing of the mystic, who only gains influence by way of people.

On 9/5/2018 at 5:12 PM, Habitat said:

Science and mathematics, not so. Does this mean one is lower in importance than the other ?

That what is lower to what? 

On 9/5/2018 at 5:12 PM, Habitat said:

Well, only who has been there, might opine accurately. But the great difference remains, that the mystic "secret", simply cannot be revealed or divulged, by the methods of science and mathematics.

The mystic's secret is revealed to and indulged by those who follow and those who don't.  That's where value is determined.  The difference between the mystic and the rigour of science and mathematics is that one is disputable and the other isn't.  Plays the same game of power and value by measure of one's belief.  Drawing value from the rigour of science and mathematics in opposition to the mystic simply affirms the mystic's power.  That it can't be disputed speaks more of the desire of those valuing it to be powerful than of their pursuit for truth.

[8th_wall]

On 9/5/2018 at 5:23 PM, docyabut2 said:

Studied  them all  do you want to know? a lot of people believed  didn't exist in the history  the Buda and Jesus did exist but I do:) 

Not sure why the natural stance isn't belief considering that we couldn't function as we do as a social species of we didn't have natural intrinsic trust in one another.

[8th_wall]

On 9/5/2018 at 6:21 PM, Habitat said:

I very much doubt you have studied them all, and I would posit that a great many of this ilk, are not known in the historical record, it is probably more a case of vagaries and  happenstance elevating a few to present day prominence.

Oh really?  What makes you say that? 

On 9/5/2018 at 6:21 PM, Habitat said:

But, we have a generic description of these people's contributions, for which the term, the "perennial philosophy". has been coined. And the striking aspect, the consistency of their reportage.

The fact that their reports are striking by way of consistency speaks more of the coherence and cogency of what they studied.

[8th_wall]

On 9/6/2018 at 11:26 PM, Piney said:

There was no historical record of Jesus. Josephus was talking about Jesus Ben Ananias. 

It's interesting the validity and value is measured by the written word instead of the spoken.

[8th_wall]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:35 AM, Habitat said:

Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.

Meister Eckhart

If this is true then it speaks of their knowledge coming from a single source.  Since it is repeated by them all then it's something that can be learned and applied.  That it isn't something that spread universally indicates high selection bias.

[8th_wall]

On 9/7/2018 at 12:16 PM, Mr Guitar said:

Religious wisdom, to me, is like military intelligence - a contradiction in terms.

How so? 

On 9/7/2018 at 12:16 PM, Mr Guitar said:

Religion (and the idea of god/gods) was first put forth by the ignorant as some sort of protection against that which was not  understood.

Oh really?  How do you know this? 

On 9/7/2018 at 12:16 PM, Mr Guitar said:

 

It was and still is  a means for the elite to control the 'sheeple'.

Sheep are doing just fine the last time I checked.  In fact, they're better off.

On 9/7/2018 at 12:16 PM, Mr Guitar said:

"If you don't believe in our savior, then you're going to hell in a hand basket" is how it's most often put among the catholics, christians, muslims of the world - "it's our way our way or the highway"!

Maybe they're onto something if they all arrive at the same warning independently.  Humanity wouldn't function if honesty wasn't the status quo. 

On 9/7/2018 at 12:16 PM, Mr Guitar said:

We no longer have fertility gods, weather gods, gods of war, gods of love - they've all been scientifically proven to be useless constructs. I predict that, in time, religions in general will lose their hold on most of humanity.

I wonder if science owes its existence to these ludicrous concepts by way of will to power.  Competing in the same domain as these constructs speaks nothing of their validity, value or truth but rather of will to rule.  That they become dominated is affirmation of their value, despite being deemed worthless.

[Piney]

59 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

It's interesting the validity and value is measured by the written word instead of the spoken.

My people's oral history doesn't match the archaeological one. It was actually "invented" a century after contact during a "cultural revival". Therefore it has no real value.

The Dine' (Apache and Navajo) oral history says they were always in the Southwest. Yet archaeology shows they migrated from Alaska after a volcanic eruption. The Athapaskans which they broke off from verify the archaeology calling them "The Ones Who Fled".

The spoken word is a "idea" that is changed over time by misremembering or exaggeration which is human nature. It has no value to recorded history.

 

[SHaYap]

I believe the modern equivalent, or at least one of, is the 'speed of light' ...
 

Quote

 

~

The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its exact value is 299,792,458 metres per second. Wikipedia

 

Astronomical units per day: 173

Miles per second: 186000

Metres per second: 299792458

Miles per hour: 671000000

Kilometres per hour: 1080000000

Parsecs per year: 0.307

From Sun to Earth (1 AU): 8.3 min

~

 

The maths of the physics works, but only in a representative or representational ... in actuality though, I don't believe anyone claims to know the reasons why or how

~

[XenoFish]

The mystic is part conartist and pseudo-psychologist. With a good measure of self delusion. Poor man's philosopher as well.

[Rlyeh]

On ‎7‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:05 AM, Habitat said:

Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.

Meister Eckhart

Yeah, they all speak bull****.

[Rlyeh]

On ‎5‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:42 PM, Habitat said:

It seems  that after many of the great mystics had their moment of illumination, they really couldn't help but "gabble to the rabble" about their experience, despite admitting it is, effectively, untransmissable. Science and mathematics, not so. Does this mean one is lower in importance than the other ? Well, only who has been there, might opine accurately. But the great difference remains, that the mystic "secret", simply cannot be revealed or divulged, by the methods of science and mathematics.

Exactly, your great mystics are good for cults and religions, but when it comes to anything of substance they are lacking.

[8th_wall]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

My people's oral history doesn't match the archaeological one. It was actually "invented" a century after contact during a "cultural revival". Therefore it has no real value.

Oral history was invented?  What possible knowledge could cause the present to obligate itself to the future that isn't already intrinsic of the present?  The future the present aims at is one we'll never know in obligation to the people of the present.  There's some sort of shameless vanity within humanity that sets the present in stone in preparation towards the promise of the future to itself.  No idea how its drive toward structure and stability in the present is supposed to get it there though.  Not entirely sure what precisely it is that history is meant to teach us when the past is nit picked to shape the ideal future as its reason for existence.  How in the world is it that we come to measure ourselves as the best, most ideal version of humanity, by the best of the dregs left over from minds that find opposition to their humanity more worthwhile for preservation than life itself.  Rest assured that what remains of history in the past found their value in the stark contrast of the face of humanity. 

Quote

The Dine' (Apache and Navajo) oral history says they were always in the Southwest. Yet archaeology shows they migrated from Alaska after a volcanic eruption. The Athapaskans which they broke off from verify the archaeology calling them "The Ones Who Fled".

The spoken word is a "idea" that is changed over time by misremembering or exaggeration which is human nature. It has no value to recorded history.

 

 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, PsiSeeker said:

Oral history was invented? 

Quote

Yes, we lost our oral history during the American Revolution when the Keepers were murdered and it was reinvented by a false prophet named Beata on the White River in Ohio. One of my purposes in being a museum and archaeoloogy dig site liason was to help reconstruct what it actually was and how we traditionally did things.

.......and to reassure a group of superstitious morons that I have any angry spirits under control. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Piney
typo