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Farmer77

Resistance From Inside Trump Admin

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AnchorSteam
25 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

So, pick your poison then- government control or corporate control.  You can influence government with your votes and corporations with your dollar- good luck!

Even if that was the only choice, I'd still pick Corporations.

The Govt prints the money and is most influential when it comes to the value of it. The Govt controls the Police, the Military, the Laws and the Courts. 

Ain't that enough, or is there no limit to the power a Govt employee should have?

You also have to produce results to be in a Company, Govt workers are known for being inefficient, wasteful and chronically behind schedule. The Govt misplaces so much cash on a routine basis that they are past being legendary for it, it does not even make the news anymore unless its in the Billions. Shall we go into the freebies and privileges available to all 535 members of Congress?

Tariffs were another issue on this board until they were proven to be working in our favor, and the Govt controls those too. 

Lets at least try to allow something out there to balance out the power of a Govt, okay? People who work in Corporations are Human too, they include a hell of a lot of the population last I checked.

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RoofGardener
36 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Which were his 6 bankruptcies, btw?  Trump Steaks?  Trump University? GoTrump.com? Trump Airlines?  Trump Vodka? Trump Mortgage? Trump:The game? Trump magazine? Trump Ice? The New Jersey Generals? Tour De Trump? Trump on the Ocean? The Trump Network? Trumped?

Then there is this: https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-businesses-failures-successes-2016-10

The guy has a fairly low batting average and he only gets one swing with the business known as "America".

I'm afraid I can't read that article Gromdor; it insists I remove my ad blocker. (which I will not do). 

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RoofGardener
44 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Which were his 6 bankruptcies, btw?  Trump Steaks?  Trump University? GoTrump.com? Trump Airlines?  Trump Vodka? Trump Mortgage? Trump:The game? Trump magazine? Trump Ice? The New Jersey Generals? Tour De Trump? Trump on the Ocean? The Trump Network? Trumped?

Then there is this: https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-businesses-failures-successes-2016-10

The guy has a fairly low batting average and he only gets one swing with the business known as "America".

Hmm.. no.. none of the above. But then, non of the above went bankrupt ! 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

So, pick your poison then- government control or corporate control.  You can influence government with your votes and corporations with your dollar- good luck!

The average person doesn't even get a dollar vote on Goldman Sach's, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup,  etc.  initiatives or how they might affect our economy,  our life savings and investments.

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Tatetopa
49 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

The Govt prints the money and is most influential when it comes to the value of it.

I think it is the private Federal Reserve that has a big hand in this.

 

53 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Lets at least try to allow something out there to balance out the power of a Govt, okay? People who work in Corporations are Human too, they include a hell of a lot of the population last I checked.

That was East India Company Tea that got dumped in Boston Harbor and East India prodding the Crown that pushed them further into confrontation with the colonies.  The government should exist to ensure justice in the disputes between private citizens, to organize citizenry to counter foreign threats, to protect the commons, and ensure justice between private citizens and corporations.  Powerful corporations to balance out powerful governments is an arms race in which the citizens wind up footing the bills for both sides.

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Gromdor
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

I think it is the private Federal Reserve that has a big hand in this.

 

That was East India Company Tea that got dumped in Boston Harbor and East India prodding the Crown that pushed them further into confrontation with the colonies.  The government should exist to ensure justice in the disputes between private citizens, to organize citizenry to counter foreign threats, to protect the commons, and ensure justice between private citizens and corporations.  Powerful corporations to balance out powerful governments is an arms race in which the citizens wind up footing the bills for both sides.

Yeah, I was going to bring up The East India Company.  That was how powerful they were 300ish years ago.  Corporation these days have the wealth and power of multiple small countries combined.

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Gromdor
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. no.. none of the above. But then, non of the above went bankrupt ! 

Yeah, that was my point.  He has had far more failures than the 6 out of 500.  Not mentioning them implies a level of success he simply never achieved.

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Gromdor
5 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Weird, I listed more than 11 that weren't bankruptcies.

And I also had this link which mentioned a near 40% failure rate: https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-businesses-failures-successes-2016-10

Edited by Gromdor
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AnchorSteam
7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think it is the private Federal Reserve that has a big hand in this.

 

That was East India Company Tea that got dumped in Boston Harbor and East India prodding the Crown that pushed them further into confrontation with the colonies.  The government should exist to ensure justice in the disputes between private citizens, to organize citizenry to counter foreign threats, to protect the commons, and ensure justice between private citizens and corporations.  Powerful corporations to balance out powerful governments is an arms race in which the citizens wind up footing the bills for both sides.

There is a thing called Crony-Capitalism that is one of the worst forms of poison there is. It is the grotesque entanglement of Business with Government that ayn Rand has written about extensively. It corrupts both of them and the next step after that is either Fascism or the direct control by the Government of everything; Communism. 

YES, the Govt's role is to be an impartial arbiter.

That is the role it uniquely suited for and ultimately responsible for in order to justify all the tax money it collects. 

Our Federal Govt is by far the largest employer in the USA, with about 5 million on its payroll. Go ahead and have a look at what the next largest Corporation has for a payroll, I think you may be shocked.

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Dumbledore the Awesome

I'm getting confused now. so the East India Company was one of Trump's businesses? 

Anyway, apropos largest employers, here's Wiki the Pedia's suggestion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers

Walmart is only slightly behind the People's Liberation Army :D 

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and then
13 hours ago, Gromdor said:

So, pick your poison then- government control or corporate control.  You can influence government with your votes and corporations with your dollar- good luck!

With corporations, you have the option of NOT BUYING their product.  Good luck with dealing with a government in such a way.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
22 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Truly ? 

What problems has President Trump caused for you in Croatia ? 

he wants to dismantle Nato, and the moment he does the very first thing Evil Vladimir of Russia will do will be to invade the Balkans, the Baltic States* and Poland, because that's just the kind of thing they always do. 

* possibly because he doesn't know the difference between Balkans and Baltic

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Dumbledore the Awesome
3 minutes ago, and then said:

With corporations, you have the option of NOT BUYING their product.  Good luck with dealing with a government in such a way.

indeed that's true, in theory, but the problem with capitalism is that the process, by its very definition, results in corporations getting ever bigger and bigger and bigger by taking over all the competition, so that if you want to use any of the products or services in that sector, you really have no alternative but to use them. That's the problem with capitalism to me.

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RoofGardener
27 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I'm getting confused now. so the East India Company was one of Trump's businesses? 

Anyway, apropos largest employers, here's Wiki the Pedia's suggestion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers

Walmart is only slightly behind the People's Liberation Army :D 

ROFL.. what an amazing post Vlad. I was amused that McDonalds is ALMOST as big as the Peoples Liberation Army. There must be a metaphor hiding in there somewhere :) 

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and then
11 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

indeed that's true, in theory, but the problem with capitalism is that the process, by its very definition, results in corporations getting ever bigger and bigger and bigger by taking over all the competition, so that if you want to use any of the products or services in that sector, you really have no alternative but to use them. That's the problem with capitalism to me.

This may well be true but ultimately there is no comparison between the power corporations hold over the individual versus the life or death impact a government can have.  They enforce their diktats at gunpoint.

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OverSword

 

Quote

 

Michael Moore Thinks Donald Trump Or 'One Of His Minions' Wrote Anonymous NYT Op-Ed

Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore said he believes President Donald Trump either wrote or directed one of his staffers to write the anonymous Op-Ed in The New York Times that described an alleged “resistance” effort within his administration.

“Trump or one of his minions wrote it,” Moore told CNN in an interview published Sunday. “He’s the master distractor. He’s the king of the misdirect. If we have learned anything by now, it’s that he does things to get people to turn away.”

He continued: “Let me give you the line in there that is most identifiable that he wants the public to believe. It’s the line that says, ‘Don’t worry, adults are in the room.’ That’s the idea, to get us to calm down and look away from what he’s really doing.”


 

Link

Oh that Michael Moore, he sees through the diabolical genius that is Donald Trump. :lol:

 

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Helen of Annoy
9 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

he wants to dismantle Nato, and the moment he does the very first thing Evil Vladimir of Russia will do will be to invade the Balkans, the Baltic States* and Poland, because that's just the kind of thing they always do. 

* possibly because he doesn't know the difference between Balkans and Baltic

I often wish there's **** you button. Since there isn't, I have to tell you that myself and since I'm writing a reply, I might as well add that it's a bit more complicated than to-invade-or-not, which you could've ****ing noticed by now if you weren't so busy being oh, so edgy. Anyway, not to digress.  

 

9 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

indeed that's true, in theory, but the problem with capitalism is that the process, by its very definition, results in corporations getting ever bigger and bigger and bigger by taking over all the competition, so that if you want to use any of the products or services in that sector, you really have no alternative but to use them. That's the problem with capitalism to me.

One of the problems with capitalism. 

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Helen of Annoy
57 minutes ago, OverSword said:

 

Link

Oh that Michael Moore, he sees through the diabolical genius that is Donald Trump. :lol:

 

They're both attention whor...eerrr... seekers. 

Also, Trump would never admit he's so incompetent he needs baby sitters. But it sounds possible someone close to him is preparing his insanity defence. 

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OverSword
12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

indeed that's true, in theory, but the problem with capitalism is that the process, by its very definition, results in corporations getting ever bigger and bigger and bigger by taking over all the competition, so that if you want to use any of the products or services in that sector, you really have no alternative but to use them. That's the problem with capitalism to me.

That's why Libertarians are not capitalists, they are free marketeers, in which governments main role is to prevent  monopolies and unfair business practices.  Capitalism is actually a derogatory word created by soviet communists to describe any system in which the state does not own the means of production.

edit:   that was actually Vlad that said that but I yanked to quote from Helen's post. :)

Edited by OverSword

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Helen of Annoy
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

That's why Libertarians are not capitalists, they are free marketeers, in which governments main role is to prevent  monopolies and unfair business practices.  Capitalism is actually a derogatory word created by soviet communists to describe any system in which the state does not own the means of production.

edit:   that was actually Vlad that said that but I yanked to quote from Helen's post. :)

God almighty, you almost gave me a heart-attack... I thought it's me babbling empty phrases like that... Kidding! 

 

I agree with that Vlad the Edgelord's post. 

Only there's a whole litany to add, in my opinion. 

Libertarians are generally way too naive, again, in my opinion. (Imagine free market fire-fighters. Or medicine - ew, you've already got that.)

And it's all sort of off topic... still, I might add that - aren't we already above -isms? I mean, we obviously aren't, but couldn't we be above it? Take the constructive practices (yup, some state control, definitely), stop with the destructive (profit above life and common sense), do not let morons make decisions, no matter how rich their dad was, live happily ever after.       

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Farmer77
Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Libertarians are generally way too naive, again, in my opinion. (Imagine free market fire-fighters. Or medicine - ew, you've already got that.)

Thats a really accurate observation. The realization that corporate interests themselves create a formidable and currently unbeatable opposition to the basic libertarian concepts has pushed me from libertarian into what is deemed as "liberal" territory.

 

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OverSword
7 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats a really accurate observation. The realization that corporate interests themselves create a formidable and currently unbeatable opposition to the basic libertarian concepts has pushed me from libertarian into what is deemed as "liberal" territory.

 

That's not free market libertarianism.  The one's (IMO) that are naive are the people that think we've come too far in one direction or another to change it to what it should be.  Those people, like you and Helen, are basically enslaved to our current systems because they cannot see the difference between the crony capitalism we now have, in which the state gives big players an advantage through legislation and a true free market, where the only role of government would be to ensure cronyism and monopoly does not occur.  This of course would be augmented to include protecting resources and environment for the future.

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OverSword
17 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

God almighty, you almost gave me a heart-attack... I thought it's me babbling empty phrases like that... Kidding! 

 

I agree with that Vlad the Edgelord's post. 

Only there's a whole litany to add, in my opinion. 

Libertarians are generally way too naive, again, in my opinion. (Imagine free market fire-fighters. Or medicine - ew, you've already got that.)

And it's all sort of off topic... still, I might add that - aren't we already above -isms? I mean, we obviously aren't, but couldn't we be above it? Take the constructive practices (yup, some state control, definitely), stop with the destructive (profit above life and common sense), do not let morons make decisions, no matter how rich their dad was, live happily ever after.       

See above

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Helen of Annoy
4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats a really accurate observation. The realization that corporate interests themselves create a formidable and currently unbeatable opposition to the basic libertarian concepts has pushed me from libertarian into what is deemed as "liberal" territory.

 

But to be honest, libertarian (lack of) society would prevent Trump-like phenomena. Only the ethically worst would survive, but the ethically worst among at least semi-functional people. He wouldn't be needed if there was no need for small laundromats, in an unregulated state that would be itself one giant money washing machine. And he certainly has no beauty to buy his existence with. 

In all seriousness, libertarian idea is just too cruel for my taste.  

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