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Farmer77

Resistance From Inside Trump Admin

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Helen of Annoy
3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That's not free market libertarianism.  The one's (IMO) that are naive are the people that think we've come too far in one direction or another to change it to what it should be.  Those people, like you and Helen, are basically enslaved to our current systems because they cannot see the difference between the crony capitalism we now have, in which the state gives big players an advantage through legislation and a true free market, where the only role of government would be to ensure cronyism and monopoly does not occur.  This of course would be augmented to include protecting resources and environment for the future.

Crony capitalism, oligarchy or quasi-socialism seen in former Eastern Bloc - they are surprisingly the same from common man's perspective. Only the flavour of illusion is different, really. 

The solution - in my humble opinion, of course - is not anarchy or related ideas (it really would select the worst). It's quite contrary, more responsibility, to the society and to the nature, literally to the whole planet.     

 

(Between us, when I'm angry I do wish wrath of god and right totalitarianism or complete anarchy on my fellow men, so we see who the **** lives and who dies, and so on, but then I cool down and I only wish for less morons in power and in TV shows. No, seriously, being stupid is fashionable, it has to change.) 

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Farmer77
7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That's not free market libertarianism.  The one's (IMO) that are naive are the people that think we've come too far in one direction or another to change it to what it should be.  Those people, like you and Helen, are basically enslaved to our current systems because they cannot see the difference between the crony capitalism we now have, in which the state gives big players an advantage through legislation and a true free market, where the only role of government would be to ensure cronyism and monopoly does not occur.  This of course would be augmented to include protecting resources and environment for the future.

Oh I dont necessarily think we cant get there. We just cant do it with the way society functions now.  Spitting into the wind about principles is good however there are real world problems which I have come to believe are better served by working within the system to change the system for the better.

 

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OverSword
7 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Crony capitalism, oligarchy or quasi-socialism seen in former Eastern Bloc - they are surprisingly the same from common man's perspective. Only the flavour of illusion is different, really.

I'm the common man or even less than, so do you really think I'm not too much better off than the former eastern bloc worker? :lol:

8 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

The solution - in my humble opinion, of course - is not anarchy or related ideas (it really would select the worst). It's quite contrary, more responsibility, to the society and to the nature, literally to the whole planet.     

That's a sure path to totalitarianism and slavery IMO.  Pretty words basically stealing your rights and will in subversion to something greater than yourself run by a very small group of elite people and you have no say so because...greater good.  No thank you.  It's been tried.

10 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

(Between us, when I'm angry I do wish wrath of god and right totalitarianism or complete anarchy on my fellow men, so we see who the **** lives and who dies, and so on, but then I cool down and I only wish for less morons in power and in TV shows. No, seriously, being stupid is fashionable, it has to change.) 

I'm not talking anarchy, but I am talking very limited role of the state.  That role probably would not include waging war beyond it's own borders.

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OverSword
10 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Oh I dont necessarily think we cant get there. We just cant do it with the way society functions now.  Spitting into the wind about principles is good however there are real world problems which I have come to believe are better served by working within the system to change the system for the better.

 

That'll never happen.  The system is corrupt and rigged against us.  It needs to be dismantled and short term pain will result.  Right now we're in the predicament that it's too comfortable to change it because we have computer games, great sports and humongous TV's.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
3 hours ago, OverSword said:

 

Link

Oh that Michael Moore, he sees through the diabolical genius that is Donald Trump. :lol:

 

is he still going? I thought he'd gone completely potty during the election campaign. 

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OverSword
6 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

is he still going? I thought he'd gone completely potty during the election campaign. 

Oh yeas.  He was black balled by the elite left for daring to predict a Trump election victory.  Obviously a loose cannon.

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aztek
Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

is he still going? I thought he'd gone completely potty during the election campaign. 

it always floats, what is it?

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Farmer77
3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That'll never happen.  The system is corrupt and rigged against us.  It needs to be dismantled and short term pain will result.  Right now we're in the predicament that it's too comfortable to change it because we have computer games, great sports and humongous TV's.

Ha ive been saying that since back when it was just cable TV and air conditioning keeping us distracted and happy. Ive become too cynical though, IMO the short term pain would quickly be capitalized on by the same players or type of players who have done so throughout history and we would most likely end up with something similar to what we have now just worse.......and honestly after watching our collective IQ drop like society has an open script for stupid pills over the last several years I fear the majority of our population would be rushing to pull the lever for those same ****sticks.

 

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Helen of Annoy
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I'm the common man or even less than, so do you really think I'm not too much better off than the former eastern bloc worker? :lol:

Well, I'm old enough so I was blessed to try both - self-governing socialism (ex-Yu version of socialism, with softer illusion than in proper Eastern bloc). And now, this... it's somewhere between crony capitalism and oligarchy. The difference is that I can say there's not much difference, which means the difference is noticeable - a lot more of personal freedom but a lot less of physical security. 

I'm an idiot so my personal freedom means more than free holidays in collective recreational centre to me.

But ordinary people probably appreciate free housing more than freedom to tell a political joke. 

My actual freedom, in the sense of controlling my own state instead of the state controlling me, is the same - none.

    

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

That's a sure path to totalitarianism and slavery IMO.  Pretty words basically stealing your rights and will in subversion to something greater than yourself run by a very small group of elite people and you have no say so because...greater good.  No thank you.  It's been tried.

No, what I hope for was not tried yet. At least not in relatively recent history. I hope for a society led by basically the saints, instead of thieves who are also hypocrites and psychopaths.

I'm aware it won't happen in my life time, but I rather wouldn't leave anarchy to poor kids that come after us.  

 

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I'm not talking anarchy, but I am talking very limited role of the state.  That role probably would not include waging war beyond it's own borders.

It was clear I disagree to some extent, mainly because I see countries that have no will or means to meddle too much into own affairs and no, it does not look good or promises any progress.  

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OverSword
3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, what I hope for was not tried yet. At least not in relatively recent history. I hope for a society led by basically the saints, instead of thieves who are also hypocrites and psychopaths.

Don't you have to die to become a saint? :tu:

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Helen of Annoy
9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Don't you have to die to become a saint? :tu:

No, actually, you become one while still alive, by living like one. Once you're dead it's kind of too late to pursue sainthood.  

Edited by Helen of Annoy
'infallible' spelling... god da...aaaa... ah.
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AnchorSteam
13 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I'm getting confused now. so the East India Company was one of Trump's businesses? 

Anyway, apropos largest employers, here's Wiki the Pedia's suggestion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers

Walmart is only slightly behind the People's Liberation Army :D 

Cute, but the way those numbers are bent really show's how biased the article is.

The US Military is just a part of the Federal Govt's employee list, it is just one Department. a Department of what? The US Federal Govt.

And yet again, the US Military (all branches) is shown as being larger than the PLA. Okay, but how about the Chinese Navy, Air Force and other branches? 

 

C'mon, you didn't think I'd catch that? :rolleyes:

 

What's next, trotting out a pie-chart of military expenditures to try to make the US look like the most war-mongery society on Earth?

Better have that other chart to go with it, the one that shows what each and every military involved spends on Soldier's salary and their health care after leaving the services. 

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AnchorSteam
21 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, actually, you become one while still alive, by living like one. Once you're dead it's kind of too late to pursue sainthood.  

Its also too late to argue with people who use your death to justify their agendas. 

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Helen of Annoy
2 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Its also too late to argue with people who use your death to justify their agendas. 

In that particular case, the departed was more than clear, while still alive, who he does not allow present at his funeral. His family was more than clear too. Only the offenders were shameless enough to crash his funeral. Ew. 

So much for the agendas. Shame. Conscience. Or even just common sense. 

 

By the way, how's weather in Peterburg? Stormy? 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
7 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Cute, but the way those numbers are bent really show's how biased the article is.

The US Military is just a part of the Federal Govt's employee list, it is just one Department. a Department of what? The US Federal Govt.

And yet again, the US Military (all branches) is shown as being larger than the PLA. Okay, but how about the Chinese Navy, Air Force and other branches? 

 

C'mon, you didn't think I'd catch that? :rolleyes:

 

What's next, trotting out a pie-chart of military expenditures to try to make the US look like the most war-mongery society on Earth?

Better have that other chart to go with it, the one that shows what each and every military involved spends on Soldier's salary and their health care after leaving the services. 

I wasn't trying to make any point about anything, I just wondered what it might say. If you have any complaints about the way that it's shown you should take it up with Wiki the Pedia. 

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AnchorSteam
9 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

By the way, how's weather in Peterburg? Stormy? 

You'll be finding out soon. Tovarisch, weather you like it or not.

 

 

 

:P:D:rofl:

I can't help it, its all just so damn silly!!

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Tatetopa
7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, what I hope for was not tried yet. At least not in relatively recent history. I hope for a society led by basically the saints, instead of thieves who are also hypocrites and psychopaths.

Was this not Plato's idea of the perfect state?

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Tatetopa
19 hours ago, and then said:

With corporations, you have the option of NOT BUYING their product.  Good luck with dealing with a government in such a way.

Pardon me, but that seems a little out of touch.  There are a lot of corporations not involved in producing consumer goods.  They operate in our economy and on our economy and don't care where you buy your toothpaste.  

 

23 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

There is a thing called Crony-Capitalism that is one of the worst forms of poison there is. It is the grotesque entanglement of Business with Government that ayn Rand has written about extensively. It corrupts both of them and the next step after that is either Fascism or the direct control by the Government of everything; Communism. 

Why would people who own most of everything want a communist government?  They say power corrupts but so does money.   Crony sounds small town, wood-stovey, Global Elite might be closer to the mark.   Some are Americans, some are Asians and Europeans.  Your government business and charity combination is exactly the model for the Clinton Foundation.

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AnchorSteam
46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Pardon me, but that seems a little out of touch.  There are a lot of corporations not involved in producing consumer goods.  They operate in our economy and on our economy and don't care where you buy your toothpaste.  

Like Goldman Sachs for example.

Or... Lehman Brothers?

"Too big to Fail" means it is a Trust and needs to be dismantled. 

46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Why would people who own most of everything want a communist government?  They say power corrupts but so does money.   Crony sounds small town, wood-stovey, Global Elite might be closer to the mark.   Some are Americans, some are Asians and Europeans.  Your government business and charity combination is exactly the model for the Clinton Foundation.

Crony can be on any scale, and it means the same thing; a symbiotic relationship between Govt and Business that is based on corruption and favoritism. 

And yes, the Clinton Foundation is one of the very worst examples.

As for why a CEO would like Communism, two things; POWER. State control is the ultimate monopoly.

And don't forget- in Communism as practiced (as opposed to the ideals that have never been achieved) all of the disposable wealth is concentrated in the top 1% that rule the Government. There is no pesky middle class. 

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Helen of Annoy
11 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

As for why a CEO would like Communism, two things; POWER. State control is the ultimate monopoly.

And don't forget- in Communism as practiced (as opposed to the ideals that have never been achieved) all of the disposable wealth is concentrated in the top 1% that rule the Government. There is no pesky middle class. 

If I may nitpick: socialism as practiced, on a state level communism wasn't practiced anywhere yet. 

Besides that, I agree, you obviously remember it well ;) or you were told the truth by your parents. It wasn't real socialism, there was ruling party class controlling the wealth (and wasting it on extravagance while common comrades were simply, chronically poor).

 

But you don't need Communism for totalitarianism. Theocracies are just as good, if not better, for state terror against the population.     

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AnchorSteam
3 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

If I may nitpick: socialism as practiced, on a state level communism wasn't practiced anywhere yet. 

Besides that, I agree, you obviously remember it well ;) or you were told the truth by your parents. It wasn't real socialism, there was ruling party class controlling the wealth (and wasting it on extravagance while common comrades were simply, chronically poor).

It has failed every time it has been tried, which has been an awful lot of times all over the whole world on every continent. 

When are people going to realize the significance of that?

3 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

But you don't need Communism for totalitarianism. Theocracies are just as good, if not better, for state terror against the population.     

Absolutely right. Iran comes to mind. 

Here is the testimony of someone who came from there. The points she makes are compelling... but it goes very long (over an hour). Maybe later I will repost it with minute-markers and a brief summery, but for now -

 

 

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aztek
14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Was this not Plato's idea of the perfect state?

it was, and i'm sure not just him alone, but reality does not work that way, thus it never happened, nor it ever will

Edited by aztek

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aztek
Just now, AnchorSteam said:

Absolutely right. Iran comes to mind. 

 

 

 

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preview_233dfc5a-b80d-4ac7-ad91-d3bbca3e

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AnchorSteam

.... ugh, how "Progressive".

Just the sort of people you'd want to give 150 Billion Dollars to if you were concerned about Human Rights, eh?

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Setton
4 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

.... ugh, how "Progressive".

Just the sort of people you'd want to give 150 Billion Dollars to if you were concerned about Human Rights, eh?

Yeah, we need to bomb them into progress... 

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