Theosophy

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, Amita said:

Correct, and the spiritual nature is real, while the physical is impermanent & not real.  It is not that complicated, unless we make it so.

Both are real and physical.  It depends which( if either )  a person decides to prioritise,  which will most dominate their life

IMO a good balance of both is the most beneficial.  

[Amita]

On 4/14/2019 at 5:00 PM, 029b10 said:

 “the wisdom that is from above (δοΦία ἄνωθεν [which] is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy,” avoiding, on the advice of the same Apostle [verse 15], wisdom that “is earthly, sensual, devilish (ψυχική δαιμονιώδης).”

Yet in regards to the scripture you quoted in your opening post cited above,  wisdom is wisdom, being the thing to get before getting any thing and those who have received it will tell you that there is only one way to get it, seeing that a man can receive nothing except it he given unto him . Thus as written in Proverbs 4:7, if any man lacks wisdom then let him hear the instruction in James 1:5, remembering the principle written in Proverbs 23:23  which is why it is better to give than to receive but in either case consider John 4:37 when seeking where to find it as written in  Proverbs 2:6.

In tribute to this being Good Friday, this Mahayana follower praises another excellent source of Bible Wisdom, that is, the Wisdom of Solomon.  Sadly it is not found in Protestant bibles.  Here is how it begins:

Quote

Chapter 1

i Love justice, you who rule the earth;

be mindful of the Lord in goodness,

and seek him in singleness of heart.

2 For he is found by those who do not test him,

and reveals himself to those who have full trust in him.

3 Devious thoughts cut men off from God,

and the divine power, when made trial of,

exposes the foolish.

4 For Wisdom will not enter a fraudulent mind,

nor make her home in a body mortgaged to sin.

5 The holy spirit, that divine tutor, will fly from cunning

stratagem;

she will withdraw from unintelligent thoughts

and will take umbrage at the approach of injustice.

6 Wisdom is a benevolent spirit

and she will not hold a blasphemer immune from his own

utterances;

because God is a witness of his thoughts,

the real guardian of his mind,

who hears his every word.

7 For the spirit of the Lord fills the world,

and that which holds all things together has knowledge of all

articulate sound.

 

[pallidin]

Our own mind, specifically our subconscious, is our worst enemy of all. Yet we need it.

[Amita]

3 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Our own mind, specifically our subconscious, is our worst enemy of all. Yet we need it.

What is the subconscious & how is it our 'worst enemy' and why do 'we need it'?

[pallidin]

Though we think we live in our concious mind, we actually do not.

Our subconscious mind is far more powerful and "alive", but devoid of "rational thought"

[pallidin]

5 minutes ago, Amita said:

What is the subconscious & how is it our 'worst enemy' and why do 'we need it'?

All autonomous systems are controlled by the "subconscious mind"

Without it we would quickly die.

So yes, very important.

Edit: If our vital systems were "concious" it would be so overwhelming that we would have considerable difficulty doing external tasks. Thus, it remains a "subconscious" aspect.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by pallidin

[Amita]

8 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Though we think we live in our concious mind, we actually do not.

Our subconscious mind is far more powerful and "alive", but devoid of "rational thought"

Sounds like cravings & desirous tendencies are what you are calling 'subconscious,' when actually we are aware of them.  They are not part of the mind, & granted they are powerful, which is why Buddha listed three major forms of craving as our obstacles to right living.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Amita

[pallidin]

Please read my Edit.

[Amita]

6 minutes ago, pallidin said:

All autonomous systems are controlled by the "subconscious mind"

Without it we would quickly die.

So yes, very important.

Edit: If our vital systems were "concious" it would be so overwhelming that we would have considerable difficulty doing external tasks. Thus, it remains a "subconscious" aspect.

 

We are responding too quickly to keep up with each other!!

OK now I see you are just talking about our bodies maintenance systems.  But they permit us to ignore them & ponder on matters of high import or indulging in cravings etc.  So 'worst enemy' I do not grok.

[pallidin]

1 minute ago, Amita said:

We are responding too quickly to keep up with each other!!

OK now I see you are just talking about our bodies maintenance systems.  But they permit us to ignore them & ponder on matters of high import or indulging in cravings etc.  So 'worst enemy' I do not grok.

We're on the same "page"

However, there are subconscious "routines" which largely dominate conciousness... panic, and sexual desire.

To a degree we can control both, but, the subconscious has the "final" say.

[XenoFish]

Amita, the answer for how you can program your subconscious is repetition. Using such things as a mantra/affirmation, performing certain actions (prayer, etc), or daily spiritual study each and everyday. This will create a habit. Making it easier to perform the behavioral change you wish, or cultivate a new mindset. Hope this helps. 

 

[pallidin]

Anyway, Amita, I hope you come back to our discussion.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

@pallidin @XenoFish 

Please stop disrupting every single thread you two post in. Take your bickering to pm or put each other on ignore.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Daughter of the Nine Moons said:

@pallidin @XenoFish 

Please stop disrupting every single thread you two post in. Take your bickering to pm or put each other on ignore.

Can do boss.

[Amita]

1 hour ago, Daughter of the Nine Moons said:

@pallidin @XenoFish 

Please stop disrupting every single thread you two post in. Take your bickering to pm or put each other on ignore.

When I returned there were not 25 or so replies, so I thank you for evaporating their bickering.

[029b10]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:01 PM, Amita said:

Wisdom from above is not earthly wisdom

Well, if he told you of earthly things and you believe not, then how shall you believe if he tells you of heavenly things.

[Harte]

"...you believe not..." ???

LOL

God damn, dude. Which royal court do you attend again?

Harte

[jmccr8]

[pallidin]

On 4/19/2019 at 6:20 PM, Amita said:

When I returned there were not 25 or so replies, so I thank you for evaporating their bickering.

I'm BACK...

[pallidin]

On 4/19/2019 at 4:41 PM, Daughter of the Nine Moons said:

@pallidin @XenoFish 

Please stop disrupting every single thread you two post in. Take your bickering to pm or put each other on ignore.

Nah, I actually like Xeno.

Sure, we fervently disagree... but, he has a "position"

I like those with positions.

He's steadfast in his perspective, and so too myself.

Good stuff.

Edited April 29, 2019 by pallidin

[Duke Wellington]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 10:12 PM, Amita said:

Sounds like cravings & desirous tendencies are what you are calling 'subconscious,' when actually we are aware of them.  They are not part of the mind, & granted they are powerful, which is why Buddha listed three major forms of craving as our obstacles to right living.

We have our subconscious but know nothing about what goes on inside it. Then we have our conscious where all the thinking activity we are aware of occurs.

It is the thinking activity which leads us into problems in life because it is designed to fix problems, solve tasks, and satisfy our needs. Its all it wants to do all day long - fix, solve, and satisfy. Unfortunately we cannot fix, solve, and satisfy, everything. So because our conscious minds lack an off-switch we cannot let it go until we have found a solution. 

Mindfulness is about realising that, and realising its what actually drives us up the wall - not being about to find a solution which allows us to fix, solve, or satisfy. When you see that process is yourself you can disengage from it. While it means that problems, challenges, and needs, go unsatisfied, it also means you dont dig yourself into a hole over them.

[Amita]

This book by G. de Purucker, H.P. Blavatsky: the Mystery, is out of print, but some used copies may be out there. Here are the first six chapters, lightly edited from The Theosophical Path issues in 1929-30:

https://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/th-hpbm.htm

Edited November 8, 2019 by Amita

[Duke Wellington]

On 4/18/2019 at 2:05 AM, Mr Walker said:

ALL objective realities can be measured mathematically.

Subjective realities cannot  .

However, things like selfishness  and selflessness can be objectively measured by using criteria  referenced assessments of the results when different attitudes are put into practice as behaviours.

Thus the outcomes of behaviours can me mathematically assessed, using objective criteria, and this, in turn, can define if a value or morality is selfless or selfish. 

To go back to the op, a person can plan, examine, evaluate and analyse the outcomes of different values and beliefs if the y  were to be put into practice, before  deciding which  is the optimal belief and behaviour. 

So, while we may not achieve perfection, by having this as a target we consistently improve our thoughts and behaviours. 

Well thats logically flawed.

We are only capable of experiencing a subjective reality, regardless of whether there is anything objective or not behind what we are experiencing.

The scientific method is a deterministic and mechanical approach to understanding how things work. As such it cannot be applied to systems which behave non-deterministically and organically such as a human being. You have fallen into the trap of treating humans like machines when we arent.

I`m not an advocate of classical approaches to leadership where the leader forms a set of `perfect idles` and then tries to coordination the state towards them. Perfection is relative - a set of idles is heaven to one man but hell to another.

Therefore instead of idealism the focus of a state should be on functionality. Leaders should be concerned with getting the state functioning in a way which benefits the most and harms the fewest. All ideologies belong in the bin.

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Well thats logically flawed.

We are only capable of experiencing a subjective reality, regardless of whether there is anything objective or not behind what we are experiencing.

The scientific method is a deterministic and mechanical approach to understanding how things work. As such it cannot be applied to systems which behave non-deterministically and organically such as a human being. You have fallen into the trap of treating humans like machines when we arent.

I`m not an advocate of classical approaches to leadership where the leader forms a set of `perfect idles` and then tries to coordination the state towards them. Perfection is relative - a set of idles is heaven to one man but hell to another.

Therefore instead of idealism the focus of a state should be on functionality. Leaders should be concerned with getting the state functioning in a way which benefits the most and harms the fewest. All ideologies belong in the bin.

No that is a modern philosophical approach Our minds are capable of perceiving and thinking both objectively and subjectively (and once upon a time all students were taught the difference and how to think using both forms 

Your language shows your bias

Our environment is objective.  it is what it is. 

We can either acknowledge that and think of it objectively; or not, and think subjectively 

lol A human being is just like all other physic la things The only difference is the capacity given us by our self  aware consciousness

Its because of that, that i agree with the rest of your post 

However conception/ imagination/ idealism, all contribute to ultimate functionality.

It requires imagination to look into the future and see the results of a new design for an armchair or for  a  new social structure 

what we consider functional is a product of the ideals ethics and moralities we have 

Otherwise, as an extreme example,  we would optimise human existence by killing off all non productive members  including the old, the infirm and disabled, and measure a person by their functional value to our society.  We would compel women to have enough children to maintain the population a t a sustainable level and no more

  Stalin was the last powerful leader to attempt  functionality as a state objective.It failed miserably because it did not account for human nature 

China modified the approach with more success because it gave the people what THEY wanted not  just what the state wanted.    

Ps maybe you missed my point which was a bit like yours 

We can  objectively measure beliefs ideologies and regions by the effects that occur when they are practiced.

Those effects can be objectively measured using criteria referenced assessment  (and allowing for subjective value based moralities)

Then goals should be set to push peole towards optimal outputs for themselves and for their society. The y could range from the use of tax incentives or penalties to the use of laws to control behaviours.  or just the use of social media to form and push consensus and change on desire outcomes    

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Duke Wellington]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No that is a modern philosophical approach Our minds are capable of perceiving and thinking both objectively and subjectively (and once upon a time all students were taught the difference and how to think using both forms 

Your language shows your bias

Our environment is objective.  it is what it is. 

We can either acknowledge that and think of it objectively; or not, and think subjectively 

lol A human being is just like all other physic la things The only difference is the capacity given us by our self  aware consciousness

Its because of that, that i agree with the rest of your post 

However conception/ imagination/ idealism, all contribute to ultimate functionality.

It requires imagination to look into the future and see the results of a new design for an armchair or for  a  new social structure 

what we consider functional is a product of the ideals ethics and moralities we have 

Otherwise, as an extreme example,  we would optimise human existence by killing off all non productive members  including the old, the infirm and disabled, and measure a person by their functional value to our society.  We would compel women to have enough children to maintain the population a t a sustainable level and no more

  Stalin was the last powerful leader to attempt  functionality as a state objective.It failed miserably because it did not account for human nature 

China modified the approach with more success because it gave the people what THEY wanted not  just what the state wanted.    

Ps maybe you missed my point which was a bit like yours 

We can  objectively measure beliefs ideologies and regions by the effects that occur when they are practiced.

Those effects can be objectively measured using criteria referenced assessment  (and allowing for subjective value based moralities)

Then goals should be set to push peole towards optimal outputs for themselves and for their society. The y could range from the use of tax incentives or penalties to the use of laws to control behaviours.  or just the use of social media to form and push consensus and change on desire outcomes    

 

What I am about to tell you is basic biology and physics.

All your eyes detect is photons, not what is actually out there. Those photons activate cells in your retina, your retina sends electrical signals to your brain, and your brain constructs what you then experience as reality from those electrical signals. It means what you experience as reality is 100% subjective. It is absolutely impossible to know something how it actually is. 

Most people learn that at high school, is not rocket science.