Theosophy

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

 

[papageorge1]

53 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Do it and find out. 

Done it and found out.

[Carlos Allende]

Jaysis, lads! I think the moral of this forum is probably, 'If you've read Madam Blavatsky, let's have a discussion, if you haven't, go away and read her, then come back _if you want_'. Why the rowing? I'm not the biggest fan of Buddhism, and I can imagine plenty of Westerners cherry-pick Eastern ideas for the most tenuous, self-indulgent reasons imaginable   --but at the same time, I'm not ashamed to say I've got a blind spot in my library. Blaverz is on her way from eBay as we speak.

[Amita]

1 minute ago, Carlos Allende said:

... I'm not ashamed to say I've got a blind spot in my library. Blaverz is on her way from eBay as we speak.

Well done - which title did you pick?

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Carlos Allende said:

Jaysis, lads! I think the moral of this forum is probably, 'If you've read Madam Blavatsky, let's have a discussion, if you haven't, go away and read her, then come back _if you want_'. Why the rowing? I'm not the biggest fan of Buddhism, and I can imagine plenty of Westerners cherry-pick Eastern ideas for the most tenuous, self-indulgent reasons imaginable   --but at the same time, I'm not ashamed to say I've got a blind spot in my library. Blaverz is on her way from eBay as we speak.

Don't you mean, "Let's discuss a proven fraud." right? Because that's what's happening. 

[Harte]

6 hours ago, Amita said:

Then quote the 'public record'.  Keeping in mind the hostility to Blavatsky was immense because she supported the ancient philosophies and criticized Xtianity & pompous scientists.

Study either link in my post #185 for testimony & evidence in HPB's favor.

No. You can look it up if you're interested. Here's a little info though. Get you started anyway.

I've provided source after source on a plethora of subjects to the poster I was replying to.

As far as anyone here can tell, he's not read those yet.

And you can make up any reason you want for any supposed hostility to Blavatsky. The truth is, she was part of an extremely popular movement at the time - Spiritism and Occultism. That hybridized belief system swept Western cultures to such an extent that it took in a large number of otherwise reasonable people. Even Harry Houdini, a professional trickster.

The only hostility she ever faced was from the police for scams, including those involving her confessed partners, and for non-payments of debts owed.

Harte

[Amita]

Here is another study of the fraud allegations put out by the SPR investigator Hodgson.  By the by, the Society for Psychical Research eventually admitted that 'investigation' was worthless.

http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/theosophypdfs/kingsland_was_she_a_charlatan_red.pdf

Here is the 1986 apology from the SPR:

Quote

Rebuttal to Hodgson Report - Conclusion 
published in Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, April 1986:

---

CONCLUSION

I have concentrated on the handwriting aspect of the Hodgson Report, partly because it forms a major part of his thesis and I am here playing on my home ground, but more importantly because every thing I have stated can be checked independently. We do not have to rely on the testimony of long-dead witnesses. The witness here - and an eloquent one - is the Hodgson Report itself.

As detailed examination of this Report proceeds, one becomes more and more aware that, whereas Hodgson was prepared to use any evidence, however trivial or questionable, to implicate HPB, he ignored all evidence that could be used in her favour. His report is riddled with slanted statements, conjecture advanced as fact or probable fact, uncorroborated testimony of unnamed witnesses, selection of evidence and downright falsity. As an investigator, Hodgson is weighed in the balances and found wanting. His case against Madame H. P. Blavatsky is not proven.

I cannot exonerate the SPR committee from blame for publishing this thoroughly bad report. They seem to have done little more than rubber-stamp Hodgson's opinions; and no serious attempt was made to check his findings or even to read his report critically. If they had done so, its errors of procedure, its inconsistencies, its faulty reasoning and bias, its hostility towards the subject and its contempt for the 'native' and other witnesses, would have become apparent; and the case would have been referred back for further study. Madame H. P. Blavatsky was the most important occultist ever to appear before the SPR for investigation; and never was opportunity so wasted. Nor can I exonerate the quondam Council of the Theosophical Society for their failure to allow their founder fair defence. They seemed concerned only with saving their own reputations. Whether she was impostor or not, HPB was entitled to a fair hearing. She never had it. Had she been allowed the legal and expert help she begged for, both Hodgson and the Society for Psychical Research would have been in dire trouble. It is a thing most wonderful that Hodgson was able so completely to bamboozle, not only Netherclift and Mr. Sims of the British Museum, but also men and women of the calibre of Myers, Gurney and Mrs. Sidgwick-not to mention several generations of psychical researchers since the 1885 Report was published. On l4 January 1886, Madame Blavatsky wrote:

'That Mr. Hodgson's elaborate but misdirected inquiries, his affected precision, which spends infinite patience over trifles and is blind to facts of importance, his contradictory reasoning and his manifold incapacity to deal with such problems as those he endeavoured to solve, will be exposed by other writers in due course - I make no doubt.'

I apologize to her that it has taken us one hundred years to demonstrate that she wrote truly.

Vernon Harrison

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Amita

[papageorge1]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Considering that you are quite bias against 'us' skeptics and nonbelievers. Wouldn't it be nice to put 'us' in 'our' place? 

What do you say Georgie? 

 

Something smells Fishie in that offer

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

That hybridized belief system swept Western cultures to such an extent that it took in a large number of otherwise reasonable people. Even Harry Houdini, a professional trickster.

I'm not too sure about this, Houdini was actually known as one of the most effective debunkers of spiritualists and such at the time.  He did set up a cool test with his wife that after he died he would try to communicate a secret phrase to her via a seance, which I think she may have given up on after 10 years with no results, but I had never heard that he was ever 'taken in' by these ideas, I think it's the opposite.

[SHaYap]

Let's take a wee step back and start again somewhere else ... howzabot ....

~

 

[00.25:23]

"Is Hypnosis Fake?" Hypnotist stuns TEDX crowd - YouTube

~
 

[00.10:55]

Mentalist Lior Suchard Bends Harry Connick Jr. & Alice Eve's Minds - YouTube

~

[Harte]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not too sure about this, Houdini was actually known as one of the most effective debunkers of spiritualists and such at the time.  He did set up a cool test with his wife that after he died he would try to communicate a secret phrase to her via a seance, which I think she may have given up on after 10 years with no results, but I had never heard that he was ever 'taken in' by these ideas, I think it's the opposite.

Quote

n the 1920s, after the death of his mother, Houdini began focusing his energy on debunking psychics and mediums. Although he eventually focused on proving these people to be fakes, his initial entry into the world of the supernatural began when he attempted to contact his dead mother. However, he found that the mediums he met were often frauds. He began investigating their methods and claims and later became a self-appointed crusader against them. He knew he could duplicate their methods on stage and it was not long before his efforts to reach his mother became secondary to his need to expose the frauds. Ashamed of having masqueraded as a medium during his medicine show days, Houdini began making notes for a book.

https://www.thegreatharryhoudini.com/occult.html

Despair and grief can take the most rational person over the edge,

[jaylemurph]

8 hours ago, Amita said:

One reason I (and perhaps PapaG) do not waste time with firm skeptics is because they (you too?) will not or cannot study the original sources on the subject they are skeptical about; in this case Blavatsky.

Read links in post #185?

This would be a little more of the smugness I commented upon previously in another thread.

How do you know what I've read? Or how critically I read it? How do you know I haven't read every single word that woman wrote? Why would you presume that, having read her, that I wouldn't come to the conclusion she's a con-artist, intent on ripping off every aboriginal tradition that suited her and bilking whomever she could? That's not open-mindedness; that's the complete opposite.

For the record, I am scholar and researcher by profession and inclination. I can read fluent Ancient Greek (Koine and Classical Attic), Latin (Classical and Medieval Church), Old French, Old Spanish, Old Occitan, Gothic, Old High German (and the modern equivalent of the Romance languages), along with research ability in Old Persian cuneiform, Hittite cuneiform, and Syriac. Any "ancient knowledge" in any of those you want to have a right old chinwag about, you let me know and we will.

--Jaylemurph

[jaylemurph]

8 hours ago, the-Unexpected-Soul said:

 

I enjoyed that immensely! Great critique!

(Although it's well-known basset hounds are peaceable old souls who find such sniping distasteful. Perhaps Madame Blavastsky would have done well to channel one or two of Our Past Basset Masters to help establish her credentials!)

--Jaylemurph

[Piney]

Not only is this racist. It's complete garbage.

https://blavatskytheosophy.com/atlantis-and-lemuria/

[Piney]

Nice.....

Quote

In terms of esoteric ethnology, Theosophy says that today’s oriental races such as the Chinese, Mongolian, Tibetan, Malaysian, Indonesian, Japanese, Vietnamese and so on are largely descended from the seventh and final sub-race of the Atlantean Root Race, as are the Eskimos or Inuits and Native Americans, while the indigenous peoples of Africa and Australia originate from earlier Atlantean sub-races as well as the seventh and final sub-race of the Lemurian Root Race. All the other ethnic groups are part of the various sub-races of the Aryan Root Race.

https://blavatskytheosophy.com/human-evolution-in-the-secret-doctrine/

[Amita]

45 minutes ago, Piney said:

Nice.....

The understanding of racial & ethnic & linguistic groups in theosophy is very complicated.  So I would not go by just that one article, only part of which is from HPB.

The main things that may help we modern folk understand is:  No group nor tribe nor race is superior or inferior in every way.  Different qualities are developed over many incarnations.  

We are not our bodies nor our group identity, no matter how much we presently identify with our body or group. We are immaterial souls & spirits using, for one incarnation, a specific body that is part of an ethnic or racial group.  

We change to a different group often.  As the Bhagavad Gita puts it, our present personality is like a coat, which we drop aside at death.  Next lifetime a different coat, i.e. personality & group.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Amita said:

The understanding of racial & ethnic & linguistic groups in theosophy is very complicated.

Well, Atlantis and Lemuria ( What they considered it)  never existed.   Especially Atlantis. 

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Amita said:

We change to a different group often.  As the Bhagavad Gita puts it, our present personality is like a coat, which we drop aside at death.  Next lifetime a different coat, i.e. personality & group.

Your soul is 2 parts. It splits at death. The higher part joins Q'i. Unless you are are completely base and deranged. Then it's "earthbound" until it fades away (disperses) 

[Piney]

Much of this is outright lies.

https://theosophy.wiki/en/Atlantis#Evidence_for_the_Reality_of_Atlantis

 

[Piney]

Quote

Suggesting the existence of an ancient land mass in the Atlantic Ocean which would have connected North America to Europe is indicated by the many very similar flora dating back to the Miocene age. Magnolias, tulip-trees, evergreen oaks to name a few found in Virginia and Florida correspond to a European counterpart.

Long before the Miocene. Magnolias and tulips evolved during the Cretaceous and oaks are basal rosids that evolved during the Turonian. 

Quote

Skulls discovered on the banks of the Danube River bear a striking resemblance to the Carib people, an indigenous South American people living mainly in coastal regions of French Guiana, Suriname, Guyana, and Venezuela and also to the Old Peruvians.

They have no genetic relation whatsoever.

Quote

Frederic Farrar, classics scholar and comparative philologist, has found that the Basque people of Southern France/Northern Spain, have a language that bears no resemblance at all to the languages in the their geographic area but is very similar to the aboriginal people of North America.

Basque and Corsican was the language brought by the Anatolian farmers who settled Europe and has no relationship to North American languages

https://theosophy.wiki/en/Atlantis#Evidence_for_the_Reality_of_Atlantis

@Amita

[Amita]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Your soul is 2 parts. It splits at death. The higher part joins Q'i. Unless you are are completely base and deranged. Then it's "earthbound" until it fades away (disperses) 

Right - that is what the dual mind or soul, the angelic & devilish, is about.  I started this thread with that key idea - virtue attaches to higher mind, vice to lower mind.

 

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Much of this is outright lies.

https://theosophy.wiki/en/Atlantis#Evidence_for_the_Reality_of_Atlantis

But all of it is not.

This has nothing to do, I suppose, with lost continents, but there is an odd relationship between the Hopi & Tibetan tongues.  I cannot recall exactly, but they were in some way reverse images or sounds of each other.

[Amita]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Well, Atlantis and Lemuria ( What they considered it)  never existed.   Especially Atlantis. 

So what the old Egyptian priest told Solon about Atlantis, who repeated that to Socrates is a fable, you think?  The tale is told in the Critias & Timaeus of Plato.

[Harte]

10 minutes ago, Amita said:

So what the old Egyptian priest told Solon about Atlantis, who repeated that to Socrates is a fable, you think?  The tale is told in the Critias & Timaeus of Plato.

You've got the titles right but, judging by the rest of your post, you don't actually know what's in them.

So, even though Plato's Atlantis is certainly imaginary, the Atlantis you cling to is even more imaginary as it exists only in your mind and you have yourself constructed it to your own liking.

Harte

[Amita]

7 hours ago, Harte said:

You've got the titles right but, judging by the rest of your post, you don't actually know what's in them.

So, even though Plato's Atlantis is certainly imaginary, the Atlantis you cling to is even more imaginary as it exists only in your mind and you have yourself constructed it to your own liking.

*snip* I was reading that part of the Critias (yes, in translation) last week.  Clinging is not a habit of mine.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Saru
Removed personal attack

[Piney]

7 hours ago, Amita said:

This has nothing to do, I suppose, with lost continents, but there is an odd relationship between the Hopi & Tibetan tongues.  I cannot recall exactly, but they were in some way reverse images or sounds of each other.

Tibetan is Sino-Tibetan and related to Chinese. There is no relationship with Hopi. Even their Animism isn't related but the Tibetan Animism shows a relationship with the old Tang belief system.

 They have connected Dine' ( Apache and Navajo) with  Yenisesian but the Dine were later immigrants who crossed over with boats during the Early Woodland Period and were pushed out of the Northwest after a volcanic eruption in Alaska. 

7 hours ago, Amita said:

So what the old Egyptian priest told Solon about Atlantis, who repeated that to Socrates is a fable, you think?  The tale is told in the Critias & Timaeus of Plato.

The theory was the Egyptian was talking about Minoan Crete who they traded with extensively during the Bronze Age and then collapsed after the eruption of Thera and a invasion by the Greeks, but there is no proof that the priest ever existed.