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Scudbuster

Religion........ and its Deep Roots of Fear

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XenoFish
11 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Don't think I missed the point, psychologically speaking you ought to be as concerned about ideation, as action. Plenty of, for example, pedophiles, are languishing in jails because they are deemed too great a risk of re-offending. because they are assessed as still having the ideation. From the point of view that fear of jail is the only thing preventing you, thought impulses are as damning as action, in terms of your mentality. Your internal "judge" would have to convict you, if you'd like to kill someone, but don't, only because it would wreck your own life. The person who only worries about external judges, probably isn't much different if it is an "eternal" judge, on a temporal one, they worry about. The true religious would be worried about the internal judge, because it seems they are conflicted. The conscientious want to resolve their inner conflicts.

You still missed the point. Those with religious ocd think their thoughts are equal to actions. Basically if you think about someone getting into a car wreck, they do, it's your fault because you thought it. Basically magical thinking. 

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Habitat
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

people with scrupulosity believe their thoughts are the same as actions, so they worry not just about what they have done, but also about what they have thought.

Look, I think this is actually exactly what the truly religious do think, the key word being "scrupulosity", the truly religious are guided by conscience, and want to bring what they know is "right", into alignment with their impulses. If you have anti-social impulses that you don't act on, only because of fear of the consequences to you from external agencies, in the realm of God, you are little or no better than a criminal, though you may be seen as a law-abiding, solid citizen. If you are gripped by such impulses, but don't act because you are aghast at the moral wrongness, that is, the recognition of the negative consequences for others, you are internally conflicted, and naturally troubled by it. The superior man aims to have no tension between impulse and action.

Edited by Habitat

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Look, I think this is actually exactly what the truly religious do think, the key word being "scrupulosity", the truly religious are guided by conscience, and want to bring what they know is "right", into alignment with their impulses. If you have anti-social impulses that you don't act on, only because of fear of the consequences to you from external agencies, in the realm of God, you are little or no better than a criminal. If you are gripped by such impulses, but don't act because you are aghast at the moral wrongness, that is, the recognition of the negative consequences for others, you are internally conflicted, and naturally troubled by it. The superior man aims to have no tension between impulse and action.

Sounds like you're dealing with religious ocd.

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Habitat
16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Sounds like you're dealing with religious ocd.

Call it what you like, the sociopath/psychopath experiences tension between thought and action, purely for fear of the external, most people experience the tension because  of being internally conflicted, where their perception of themselves does not tally with their impulses, the fully evolved individual has resolved all such tensions.

Edited by Habitat
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Davros of Skaro
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

What are drug users doing, davros, chasing the dopamine kick ? I don't  see you railing against that. In the end, there are many "dodges" people employ to counter psychological distress, but the distress is often really the psyche spurring you to abandon immature attitudes and delusions, and that usually involve a movement away from the egotistical. Drugs and alcohol, just hold the line against that movement.

Sigh... The irony.

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Habitat
2 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

Sigh... The irony.

In your materialist, reductionist folly, you cannot see the wood for the trees....religion, it all its manifestations, is a matter of psychology, but there is more to psychology than brain chemicals, yours is the type of thesis that would conclude that the goal of humanity is to produce faeces, as all seem to do it, and it is always being produced, as of course are brain chemicals.

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Davros of Skaro
24 minutes ago, Habitat said:

In your materialist, reductionist folly, you cannot see the wood for the trees....religion, it all its manifestations, is a matter of psychology, but there is more to psychology than brain chemicals, yours is the type of thesis that would conclude that the goal of humanity is to produce faeces, as all seem to do it, and it is always being produced, as of course are brain chemicals.

No! It's just bwain chemicooos! Materialism! Materialism... Blah blah blah.....

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Habitat
22 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

No! It's just bwain chemicooos! Materialism! Materialism... Blah blah blah.....

You just wait till I publish my thesis about faeces being the centrepiece of physiological functions, I will cite your "evidence" about brain chemicals being central to psychology ! But I fear the peer reviewers will declare all of it, just **** !

Edited by Habitat
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psyche101
5 hours ago, Habitat said:

Wow, I am very impressed with Guyver and his points, and the way he is handling the "usual" rabble here, this is ripping stuff. Then again, it is easy to look good in contrast to those dolts ! Still, probably the best attitude I have ever seen in one of these "debates". Guyver seems like he has made real progress down the road of realisation, others unfortunately, and their narky attitude shows it, are still stuck in a rut at the side of the road.

Bwahaha, that could have been written by Will Due, you should have made a pointless and stupid comment with a roundabout and it would be almost identical to some of those fanatical posts. 

All your expressing here is that the enemy of your enemy makes you comrades. If Xeno and Davros weren't showing you basic truths about how things really are you would be fighting amongst yourselves. Just a bunch of very silly peas in a pod. All making stuff up and supporting each others imaginations. It's a joke really. 

And Xenos desception of Guyver is, spot on. None of you fanaticals are here to learn or share, your all here to challenge for some preacher/shaman position, validate your beliefs and oust the evil atheism. It's 11th century thinking challenging 21st century thinking. It's only you fanaticals who don't see how fanatical you all are. 

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Habitat

Guyver is not at all fanatical, neither am I. He goes on the evidence as he finds it, much as I do, seemingly. But, as I say, those that are looking to others for "spiritual" guidance, whether it be the dictates organized religion, or the dictates of people pretending to know religion is all falsehood, you are in deep do-do, and naturally aren't even aware you are. You may climb out of the mire, but there is a kind of evolutionary movement in the psyche, that whilst tending to greater integration, can stall, or be very slow in the happening. Oh, and did I mention you have the whole situation inverted here, psyche 101 ? 

Edited by Habitat

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jmccr8
6 hours ago, Habitat said:

Wow, I am very impressed with Guyver and his points, and the way he is handling the "usual" rabble here, this is ripping stuff. Then again, it is easy to look good in contrast to those dolts ! Still, probably the best attitude I have ever seen in one of these "debates". Guyver seems like he has made real progress down the road of realisation, others unfortunately, and their narky attitude shows it, are still stuck in a rut at the side of the road.

Hi Habitat

I enjoy Gyver's input as well but just because someone holds a different view does not mean they are stuck in a rut. Each of us has a life unique to ourselves that other are not able to comprehend so how they move productively through life is beyond anyone's judgement.

jmccr8 

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Habitat
10 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Habitat

I enjoy Gyver's input as well but just because someone holds a different view does not mean they are stuck in a rut. Each of us has a life unique to ourselves that other are not able to comprehend so how they move productively through life is beyond anyone's judgement.

jmccr8 

Fair point, and I did sorta agree earlier...….

"I think some interesting perspectives do appear, from time to time. Everyone has a personal narrative, I think it far more interesting to hear those, than people parroting dogma, whatever it promotes"

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joc
12 hours ago, Guyver said:

I don't believe that the God I believe in spoke to Abraham the way the bible tells it no.  I don't believe that God would ask a person to murder their own child in sacrifice.

On one hand, we have an ancient manuscript telling us what and who God is, and on the other hand we have you...defining who and what God is.

Just like the original story tellers...you are also making it up as you go along.

In the real world, we refer to such stories as...

MYTH 

 

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, joc said:

On one hand, we have an ancient manuscript telling us what and who God is, and on the other hand we have you...defining who and what God is.

Just like the original story tellers...you are also making it up as you go along.

In the real world, we refer to such stories as...

MYTH 

 

And your alternative to these representations, or misrepresentations as you imply, is what ? I'm tipping it will be  mouthful of sawdust !

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danydandan
4 hours ago, Habitat said:

And your alternative to these representations, or misrepresentations as you imply, is what ? I'm tipping it will be  mouthful of sawdust !

TRUTH.

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Scudbuster
4 hours ago, Habitat said:

And your alternative to these representations, or misrepresentations as you imply, is what ? I'm tipping it will be  mouthful of sawdust !

Well Hab.....here's how I see it:

Still waiting for logical argument.jpg

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Habitat
5 hours ago, danydandan said:

TRUTH.

And what is the truth, in this instance ? "old mate" joc criticizes old myths because they are not "real" answers, but can't substitute anything for them, and that is the very reason they came into existence in the first place, as "answers" to questions that defeat reason and logic. If science could answer these questions, this conversation would not be taking place.

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Habitat
5 hours ago, Scudbuster said:

Well Hab.....here's how I see it:

Still waiting for logical argument.jpg

There is the problem right there, waiting for logical explanations for matters that can't be answered logically, that old "riddle of existence". There aren't any, and to every appearance, there can't be, which is why those old OT tales and numerous other "creation myths" came into existence, a kind of fairy tale for adults, because what else is there to fill the gap ? It may be no better than crickets chirping, but you know what they say about nature's abhorrence of a vacuum, it would rather fill it with "something", however "illogical" it is. And it does the same in the psyche. 

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danydandan
16 minutes ago, Habitat said:

And what is the truth, in this instance ? "old mate" joc criticizes old myths because they are not "real" answers, but can't substitute anything for them, and that is the very reason they came into existence in the first place, as "answers" to questions that defeat reason and logic. If science could answer these questions, this conversation would not be taking place.

That's not true...we have flat Earth lunatics, biblical literalists, creationism, evolution denial, anti-vaxers etcetca. People will always dismiss facts and truths to ensure their narrative prevails.

Old Myths are just that Myths. Myths by definition are without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation. Thus a myth is very much likely to he false or at least very embellished.

What is the lastest modern Myth you can think of?

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Habitat
12 minutes ago, danydandan said:

That's not true...we have flat Earth lunatics, biblical literalists, creationism, evolution denial, anti-vaxers etcetca. People will always dismiss facts and truths to ensure their narrative prevails.

Old Myths are just that Myths. Myths by definition are without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation. Thus a myth is very much likely to he false or at least very embellished.

What is the lastest modern Myth you can think of?

They are all fringe ideas that the majority of people don't buy, but the old "riddle of existence" is a perfect fit for mythology, because science has nothing to offer as a substitute.

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Will do
29 minutes ago, danydandan said:

What is the lastest modern Myth you can think of?

 

How about the myth that the universe does not have a center. :D

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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joc
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

And what is the truth, in this instance ? "old mate" joc criticizes old myths because they are not "real" answers, but can't substitute anything for them, and that is the very reason they came into existence in the first place, as "answers" to questions that defeat reason and logic. If science could answer these questions, this conversation would not be taking place.

The reason they (myths) came into being was because the first humans had zero knowledge of the Universe and how it works.

And Science has answered these questions. Over and over and over again!

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Habitat
15 minutes ago, joc said:

The reason they (myths) came into being was because the first humans had zero knowledge of the Universe and how it works.

And Science has answered these questions. Over and over and over again!

Plenty of errors in that joc, they did not have "zero" knowledge at all, and science has not, and has no prospects of, elucidating that little puzzle I keep mentioning...….

~THE RIDDLE OF EXISTENCE~

It is a mystery inaccessible by reason, though maybe you think differently. And, of course, you realise it, although perhaps not consciously. To believe that is wrong, is simply to misunderstand science .

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Plenty of errors in that joc, they did not have "zero" knowledge at all, and science has not, and has no prospects of, elucidating that little puzzle I keep mentioning...….

~THE RIDDLE OF EXISTENCE~

It is a mystery inaccessible by reason, though maybe you think differently. And, of course, you realise it, although perhaps not consciously. To believe that is wrong, is simply to misunderstand science .

So you'd rather just jump to some spiritual conclusion, which amounts to burying your head in the sand. 

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Habitat
11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So you'd rather just jump to some spiritual conclusion, which amounts to burying your head in the sand. 

No, I jump to the conclusion that reason has hit the end of the line, with that question, and no use trying to kid ourselves otherwise. However, as I am so often saying, there is a faculty of the mind that can deal with that question, and if you read between the lines, and sometimes the lines themselves, of many old and not so old texts, you can see that is what these "spiritual" people were banging on about, relentlessly. There really is no other message in it, although we are told God is love, it is really another way of saying that togetherness, inclusiveness, unity, are  the ultimate, true reality. To manifest that in your dealings with other people particularly, does constitute love. Distinction is ultimately an illusion created by the mind, albeit for the practical purposes of survival, but as both sages and physicists agree.....

~ " The multiplicity is only apparent " ~

Our egos, which are busy attending to our daily concerns, are resistant to this fact, locked-in as it is, with the faculty of reason, which knows only of relationships of separation, contrast, and distinction. Reason does not give us insight into ultimate reality, but that is not to decry the indispensability of it, in practical living.

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