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Scudbuster

Religion........ and its Deep Roots of Fear

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joc
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Your fantasy, joc, is that reason has no limits. In fact, it cannot function without them. If it cannot be measured, delineated, defined, distinguished, it is not going to be within the purview of science. 

What cannot be measured?  What can not be defined?  What?  The only thing that cannot be is indeed Fantasy.  The fantasy is not believing that all things can be known...the fantasy is believing that reason has limits and some things just cannot be known.

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Will do

 

But all things can be known. Even things that are cloaked @joc

It just takes time. Time for some things once thought of as fantasy to be discovered to be real.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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joc
Just now, Will Due said:

 

But all things can be known. Even things that are cloaked @joc

It just takes time.

 

 

You make it up as you go along....and you do so based on deep rooted fears.  It is the foundation of belief in God....deep rooted fears. Not experiences of the brain which any drug can give you...but fear.  Fear created God.  Fear still creates God.  You will never overcome fear through belief in god...only by confronting the actual fear...which means being honest with ones own self...which is impossible if one is going to hide behind the center of the universe.

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Habitat
2 minutes ago, joc said:

What cannot be measured?  What can not be defined?  What?  The only thing that cannot be is indeed Fantasy.  The fantasy is not believing that all things can be known...the fantasy is believing that reason has limits and some things just cannot be known.

You are an intractable case, joc, whilst science can be wonderfully effective at teasing out the detail of how the phenomenal universe fits together, it hits the stops when asked why there is anything there at all. You think otherwise ?

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Liquid Gardens
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You are an intractable case, joc, whilst science can be wonderfully effective at teasing out the detail of how the phenomenal universe fits together, it hits the stops when asked why there is anything there at all. You think otherwise ?

And science used to 'hit the stops' when investigating nearly everything it ever discovered... until it discovered it.  'Why' there is anything at all is pretty much subjective unless you define an acceptable answer.  "Because God created it" doesn't answer why, it just generates lots more questions about where God came from, why he wants something to exist, etc.  

I don't know if you realize it but your criticism of 'reason' is kinda self-defeating.  Your issues with reason are pretty transparently selective, you just don't seem to like that rationality doesn't give you the answers you either are looking for or want.  All without demonstrating or even providing an argument for your 'non-reason' method of determining the supposed truth.  

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Will do
17 minutes ago, joc said:

You make it up as you go along....and you do so based on deep rooted fears.  It is the foundation of belief in God....deep rooted fears. Not experiences of the brain which any drug can give you...but fear.  Fear created God.  Fear still creates God.  You will never overcome fear through belief in god...only by confronting the actual fear...which means being honest with ones own self...which is impossible if one is going to hide behind the center of the universe.

 

Joc, let me be clear. I have never feared God. Never. You'll just need to believe me about that.

Here's how God is real to me. In my personal experiences with him on the inside, he has always been friendly. Which has caused me to love him. Not fear him. And that's why I believe him. 

In my experiences with him, he's shown me that these experiences I have with him are what's important. They're real because we experience each other within because of our relationship. Same as all others. Natural like all others. And it's because of these experiences that I've come to understand that compared to them, nothing is more important. Not even knowing about what happens to be cloaked temporarily. Nor things that happen to be written in any book.

Personal experience is the paramount thing and it supersedes everything else. And we all have them.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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joc
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

Joc, let me be clear. I have never feared God. Never. You'll just need to believe me about that.

Here's how God is real to me. In my personal experiences with him on the inside, he has always been friendly. Which has caused me to love him. Not fear him. And that's why I believe him. 

In my experiences with him, he's shown me that these experiences I have with him are what's important. They're real because we experience each other within because of our relationship. Same as all others. Natural like all others. And it's because of these experiences that I've come to understand that compared to them, nothing is more important. Not even knowing about what happens to be cloaked temporarily. Nor things that happen to be written in any book.

Personal experience is the paramount thing and it supersedes everything else. And we all have them.

 

 

I am not talking about being afraid of God.  I am talking about fear as the catalyst for belief in God.  It is all voodoo...it is all fear based.

Personal experiences can be had with a plethora of drugs.  If it makes you happy...that's fine.   It does not change the fact that all religion is fear based.  

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Scudbuster
9 minutes ago, joc said:

I am not talking about being afraid of God.  I am talking about fear as the catalyst for belief in God.  It is all voodoo...it is all fear based.

Personal experiences can be had with a plethora of drugs.  If it makes you happy...that's fine.   It does not change the fact that all religion is fear based.  

Yes indeed Joc, yes indeed:

 

Fear and Ignorance.jpg

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Will do
31 minutes ago, joc said:

I am not talking about being afraid of God.  I am talking about fear as the catalyst for belief in God.  It is all voodoo...it is all fear based.

Personal experiences can be had with a plethora of drugs.  If it makes you happy...that's fine.   It does not change the fact that all religion is fear based.  

 

I understand what you're saying and agree somewhat.

But it isn't true that the religion of personal spiritual experience (true religion), the experience of experiencing a relationship with God within, is based on fear. That fear is its catalyst. It wasn't for me. Faith was its catalyst. 

In my case, my personal experiences with God are loving. The experience is one of friendship and camaraderie. And having mutual goals.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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joc
23 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I understand what you're saying and agree somewhat.

But it isn't true that the religion of personal spiritual experience (true religion), the experience of experiencing a relationship with God within, is based on fear. That fear is its catalyst. It wasn't for me. Faith was its catalyst. 

In my case, my personal experiences with God are loving. The experience is one of friendship and camaraderie. And having mutual goals.

 

 

Not playing psychologist here...I am not one. But you are having a personal, loving, friendly, relationship with an unseen Entity, one of which expresses to you that it shares your own goals. Why do you desire this relationship with the Unseen Entity? Why is it so important to you? Just curious.

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danydandan
4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Here's what the UB says about Havona.

 

Havona, the central universe, is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence. This never-beginning, never-ending universe consists of one billion spheres of sublime perfection and is surrounded by the enormous dark gravity bodies. [Which is why we can't see into the center of the universe from here with a telescope.] At the center of Havona is the stationary and absolutely stabilized Isle of Paradise, surrounded by its twenty-one satellites. Owing to the enormous encircling masses of the dark gravity bodies about the fringe of the central universe, the mass content of this central creation is far in excess of the total known mass of all seven sectors of the grand universe.

 

And this is what it says about Urantia relative to the center of the universe.

 

Your world, Urantia, is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe of Nebadon. This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse of Orvonton, from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection—the central universe of Havona. At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.

 

And no Dany, I don't believe because of the Urantia Book. What it says or doesn't say.

Like you, I just want to believe God. Believe despite everything else, because fundamentally, I can't think of a reason not to.

 

 

I was obviously mistaken, memory is a fleeting when reading something's.

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danydandan
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And science used to 'hit the stops' when investigating nearly everything it ever discovered... until it discovered it.  'Why' there is anything at all is pretty much subjective unless you define an acceptable answer.  "Because God created it" doesn't answer why, it just generates lots more questions about where God came from, why he wants something to exist, etc.  

I don't know if you realize it but your criticism of 'reason' is kinda self-defeating.  Your issues with reason are pretty transparently selective, you just don't seem to like that rationality doesn't give you the answers you either are looking for or want.  All without demonstrating or even providing an argument for your 'non-reason' method of determining the supposed truth.  

Trying to debate logically about the illogical is redundant isn't it?

Trying to have a reasoned debate, which is what Hab is trying to do, about the unreasonableness of the subject is also redundant.

One can't have a discussion about anything without the basic premise that the subject is based upon a mutual reality.

The whole debate is redundant. But swinging back to the subject of the OP. Way back prior to our scientific enlightenment, the only logical explanation was that supernatural forces were driving phenomenon. This may or may not have started soley on fear or rather rooted in fear. But it certainly developed into, if I may quote Dr Janitor, fearitude. Servitude and Fear combined.

Edited by danydandan
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Will do
29 minutes ago, joc said:

Not playing psychologist here...I am not one. But you are having a personal, loving, friendly, relationship with an unseen Entity, one of which expresses to you that it shares your own goals. Why do you desire this relationship with the Unseen Entity? Why is it so important to you? Just curious.

 

Not my goals joc.

I attempt to understand God's goals for me as best I can and make his goals mine, thereby making them mutual. My goals are not his goals, not until I make them mutual with his. It's an evolution of my freewill. Making my will, his will. It's a slow proccess. And I have not perfected it.

His goals are extremely clear because like in all relationships between persons, communication is fundamental. But, eventhough he makes his goals known to me, it's an entirely different matter to make them a part of who I am. That's why my relationship within, with God is so very important to me. He let's me know what to do and what to think.

 

 

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XenoFish
42 minutes ago, joc said:

Not playing psychologist here...I am not one. But you are having a personal, loving, friendly, relationship with an unseen Entity, one of which expresses to you that it shares your own goals. Why do you desire this relationship with the Unseen Entity? Why is it so important to you? Just curious.

From what I've gather from some of Will's post. It seems he projects his ideal father figure into his idea of God. I could be wrong, but considering he's admitted that his father was an angry atheist. I might be right.

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Will do
8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

From what I've gather from some of Will's post. It seems he projects his ideal father figure into his idea of God. I could be wrong, but considering he's admitted that his father was an angry atheist. I might be right.

 

I love my dad very much. He has been a tremendous example of what a man should be. I agree with him about a lot of things about religion, but not about who God is, my Father in heaven and what our relationship really is. Father to son and son to Father.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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joc
13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Not my goals joc.

I attempt to understand God's goals for me as best I can and make his goals mine, thereby making them mutual. My goals are not his goals, not until I make them mutual with his. It's an evolution of my freewill. Making my will, his will. It's a slow proccess. And I have not perfected it.

His goals are extremely clear because like in all relationships between persons, communication is fundamental. But, eventhough he makes his goals known to me, it's an entirely different matter to make them a part of who I am. That's why my relationship within, with God is so very important to me. He let's me know what to do and what to think.

 

 

You don't feel confident in your own self to know what to do and what to think?...all by yourself?... without an invisible Entity telling you what to do and what to think?

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eight bits
9 hours ago, Habitat said:

Fixed nothing. An example, only those that have fallen in love, know the experience. It is not communicable, teachable, renderable in any way, other than direct experience. Those that think it may, have never been "in love". One may say, it requires a certain kind of heart, to have the possibility of falling in love. It requires a certain kind of heart, and mind, to be open to the possibility of the Divine.

It is not communicable, teachable, renderable in any way, other than direct experience. So, then it's probably tricky to give definite answers to focused questions about it, eh?

That was the issue.

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joc
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

From what I've gather from some of Will's post. It seems he projects his ideal father figure into his idea of God. I could be wrong, but considering he's admitted that his father was an angry atheist. I might be right.

Projection is what most people do I think.  In all kinds of ways.  Absolutely with fears.  Most people's problems are associated with fear of some sort.  Its a strange thing.

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XenoFish
5 minutes ago, joc said:

Projection is what most people do I think.  In all kinds of ways.  Absolutely with fears.  Most people's problems are associated with fear of some sort.  Its a strange thing.

I think lack of control plays a part as well. Kinda the reason most people pray. 

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Guyver
6 hours ago, joc said:

What cannot be measured?  What can not be defined?  What?  The only thing that cannot be is indeed Fantasy.  The fantasy is not believing that all things can be known...the fantasy is believing that reason has limits and some things just cannot be known.

Unknown things cannot be measured or defined.  There are plenty of things that cannot be accurately measured and any number of things that are not known.   The number of drops of water in the oceans, the number of grains of sand on the seashores, the number of stars in the sky.  To think that everything can be measured or understood by humans seems the height of hubris to me.  

It's no fantasy to believe that all things cannot be known.  You don't even know how many dimensions there are in reality.  I guess I just don't understand why you choose to present as you do.  

Of all there is to know, maybe we know less than one percent.  I'd say that's way more accurate than thinking we know 99% of all that there is to know. 

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Guyver
1 hour ago, joc said:

Projection is what most people do I think.  In all kinds of ways.  Absolutely with fears.  Most people's problems are associated with fear of some sort.  Its a strange thing.

Agreed. 

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joc
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Unknown things cannot be measured or defined.  There are plenty of things that cannot be accurately measured and any number of things that are not known.   The number of drops of water in the oceans, the number of grains of sand on the seashores, the number of stars in the sky.  To think that everything can be measured or understood by humans seems the height of hubris to me.  

It's no fantasy to believe that all things cannot be known.  You don't even know how many dimensions there are in reality.  I guess I just don't understand why you choose to present as you do.  

Of all there is to know, maybe we know less than one percent.  I'd say that's way more accurate than thinking we know 99% of all that there is to know. 

Actually the number of grains of sand on all the beaches and deserts can be roughly guesstimated, as can the drops of water on planet Earth.. Your walking off into the weeds on purpose though. I have no desire to follow you.

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Habitat said:

I didn't invoke God, I said mythic tales don't help, what might help is to ask whether ultimately, all distinctions are illusory, in which case there is no now or then, no here or there, and the chain of causality evaporates. It is a problem of the mind, that can be solved by the mind, but not via reason.

Yes you did, while you also said mythical explanations are impotent you were also subtly implying the physics we do understand must be wrong because it is incomplete. You preaching your mystics nonsense again. Did you ever offer a definition to Dan on what a mystic actually is? I'd say it's just a made up term you use to impress yourself. It seems quite meaningless in context. 

Right here. 

Quote

but to the modern mindset, "laws of physics" is a more convincing sounding "reason" than "God", for many people, but of course it is similarly impotent. So the smart choice is either to quit worrying about it, or use that other faculty of the mind, that the mystics insist is the only way. Reason won't help, as indispensable as it otherwise is.

 

You veiled it  but your intent is clear. Perhaps even you are not aware of your own fantasism expressed through your belief system. 

How the laws of physics came to be is  a red herring. It does not affect what we do know, it is no arguments for God, or a reason to doubt what we have learned. Its a deflection tactic that most fanatical religious sources use when they realise they have no argument. I've seen it on several whack job websites touted as an argument, but it goes nowhere. That science has taken us this far indicates it is very much on the right track, there is just more to uncover. 

Reason will help. It always prevails. Making stuff up and invoking gods does not. 

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Habitat said:

Fixed nothing. An example, only those that have fallen in love, know the experience. It is not communicable, teachable, renderable in any way, other than direct experience. Those that think it may, have never been "in love". One may say, it requires a certain kind of heart, to have the possibility of falling in love. It requires a certain kind of heart, and mind, to be open to the possibility of the Divine.

A romantisists ideal. Nothing like reality. You seem to need to feel your existance is special too is all I get from this. 

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Habitat
6 hours ago, eight bits said:

It is not communicable, teachable, renderable in any way, other than direct experience. So, then it's probably tricky to give definite answers to focused questions about it, eh?

That was the issue.

An issue ? I did not give descriptive answers, nor am I recalling too many "focused questions", just mainly outright denial that any such alternate mode of perception exists, or if it does, is a poor relation to Lord Reason. As ever, I say if you are really interested in this subject, you will need both, or be forever ignorant of how religions have arisen. The idea they arose because some guy sits down and nuts out a plan to conscript adherents with slick talk, is probably an apt description of politics or advertising, but it is certainly not the genesis of the rootstock of religions as we know them. What ensued afterward, is another matter entirely.  L Ron Hubbard perhaps the exception that proves the rule ! And they gave that the legal status of a religion. My,my.

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