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Scudbuster

Religion........ and its Deep Roots of Fear

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Habitat
11 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And science used to 'hit the stops' when investigating nearly everything it ever discovered... until it discovered it.  'Why' there is anything at all is pretty much subjective unless you define an acceptable answer.  "Because God created it" doesn't answer why, it just generates lots more questions about where God came from, why he wants something to exist, etc.  

I don't know if you realize it but your criticism of 'reason' is kinda self-defeating.  Your issues with reason are pretty transparently selective, you just don't seem to like that rationality doesn't give you the answers you either are looking for or want.  All without demonstrating or even providing an argument for your 'non-reason' method of determining the supposed truth.  

An acceptable answer ? You can invent any answer you want, but it will still make zero logical sense. Invoking  "God dunnit", is really a kind of quasi-logical explanation, with a big taboo that we don't ask what God might be. Rationality does not give you the answer to that kind of question, and it never will, a child that has become adept at fitting all the pieces of a jigsaw-puzzle together, is none the wiser about the origins of jigsaw puzzles, for being good at them. If you want further satisfaction on the front of answering such puzzles, then it is in true religiosity, that your only hope lies. But sheer curiosity would be a poor motive, it would only progress for you if you want the truth for the truth's sake, regardless of the consequences for you, personally. Who can stand the full light of truth ? Who can really examine his/her own motives, with complete objectivity ? Very few , but that would be the kind of hurdle the true religious path places in front of us. It is really a call to greater maturity, not lingering with the delusions about ourselves, we have accreted over the years.

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Liquid Gardens
9 minutes ago, Habitat said:

An acceptable answer ? You can invent any answer you want, but it will still make zero logical sense.

Okay, then your pointing out that science hits the stops when asked 'why there is anything there at all' is kinda, well, pointless.  What I mean by 'acceptable answer' is not necessarily an answer that has evidence supporting it, I mean any theoretical answer, even if it was fantasy, that would be some kind of answer to 'why there is anything'.   I'm not sure it can be done really, I'm not even sure your question makes sense in any objective way.  So I don't think you're pointing out any problem with science, you're pointing out a problem with your question.

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psyche101
14 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

@psyche101

Can you name just one thing that exists that's made of matter and does not have a physical or geographic center?

Anything without an edge. 

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There is no such thing. Everything has a center. That's how it's a myth that the universe does not have a center psyche101.

Yes there is, the universe. If it has a centre, where is it and where is the edge? 

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At the very minimum, it stretches to the extreme the basis of logic to deny that the universe does not have a center

No it doesn't, it stretches a closed mind that simply refuses to understand concepts that are entirely different to what we experience in daily happenings. 

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and is obviously rooted in a sort of quasi-religious fear that if the certain truth is admitted that the universe does have a center, then, there must be something there that controls and dominates everything.

That's laughable Will. What fear? Who would punish a person for not supporting the logic behind the universe not having a centre? If it dies, what are these consequences one must fear? 

And why should something there be controlling everything? Gravity has its limits too. It makes no decisions for anyone. But if there was, a centre, it should be a central source. Something that binds everything as a sun binds a solar system. That's not what we see when we look up. There are universes going away from us and toward us, it's a huge expansion which spells the exact opposite of a central universal location binding it together. 

That's why one day in billions of years, the universe will be gone altogether. 

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And most people know what that is psyche101, and they're not fearful about it.

No they don't. Other religions speak of a heaven or God, not a centre of the universe. And many do fear God. 

I'm just really intrigued as to why you think anyone who can grasp the model of a centerless universe has something to fear? What exactly? 

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So, when science becomes a religion, which it has no business doing, it becomes fear based regarding the existence of God. 

Science is nothing like religion, religious people draw that comparison because they can't think outside of a religious box. I honestly don't know if you are drawing the comparison here out of spite or ignorance for instance. Either could be your motivation for making this up. 

You keep speaking of some fear, but I have no idea what you are referring to, you seem to be making that up and focusing on it. You need to indetify this fear you imagine before you can claim it has any affect on anyone. 

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psyche101
12 hours ago, Habitat said:

You are an intractable case, joc, whilst science can be wonderfully effective at teasing out the detail of how the phenomenal universe fits together, it hits the stops when asked why there is anything there at all. You think otherwise ?

Its not a valid question. It's like asking why does a mountain exist. There's no reason. There is a process that results in the causal factors of how a mountain comes to exist but nothing to fill in the why. 

Why is just a human construct. It's a superfluous and pointless question. 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Its not a valid question. It's like asking why does a mountain exist. There's no reason. There is a process that results in the causal factors of how a mountain comes to exist but nothing to fill in the why. 

Why is just a human construct. It's a superfluous and pointless question. 

As Gus Gould would say, No,No,No,No No ! The mountain, as a definable, separable entity, can indeed be explained by reason.

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XenoFish

The question of why we exist is pointless. The question of what we do with our existence is not. 

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psyche101
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

As Gus Gould would say, No,No,No,No No ! The mountain, as a definable, separable entity, can indeed be explained by reason.

That's nothing to do with why, reason outlines the causal factors that bring a mountain into being, there is no 'why' attached to its existance. 

It is indeed a pointless question. Why doesn't matter. Its just a human perception. 

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XenoFish

I really wonder what we are truly arguing/discussing. I exist, I know why I exist. My parents got freaky back in 1978. I do not know and honestly care why humanity exist. Nor do I know why any organic life exist. I kinda like it being a mystery. So I have no real desire to solve that question. No need to fill in the blanks or latch onto some ego desire for immortality. Adding god into the mix to me is just a form of insecurity, the need to feel important. To feel special or unique. Also a means of admitting ignorance without directly saying "I don't know". 

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Habitat
10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The question of why we exist is pointless. The question of what we do with our existence is not. 

Both questions are answered at once, they are of the same company.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

Both questions are answered at once, they are of the same company.

This right here^ 

Is why I dislike discussing things with you. 

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Habitat
Just now, XenoFish said:

This right here^ 

Is why I dislike discussing things with you. 

No one should follow the so-called "true" religious path, unless they feel it is a matter of life and death, in terms of a meaningful existence, for them, as I have said before, this is the most un-dilettante-like thing in the world, it is most definitely not some academic exercise. It might be described as the greatest vocation, but it is not something that ought be embarked upon, without the purest of motives, and the sense that there is really no other other way, for you. The seeker is seeking a treasure, but not a treasure to be held to oneself, but for the benefit of all.

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XenoFish
Just now, Habitat said:

No one should follow the so-called "true" religious path, unless they feel it is a matter of life and death, in terms of a meaningful existence, for them, as I have said before, this is the most un-dilettante-like thing in the world, it is most definitely not some academic exercise. It might be described as the greatest vocation, but it is not something that ought be embarked upon, without the purest of motives, and the sense that there is really no other other way, for you. The seeker is seeking a treasure, but not a treasure to be held to oneself, but for the benefit of all.

Holy Hell. My comment really had nothing much to do with religion. No one knows why we exist, no one can say exact what caused anything organic to exist, it's a mystery. Our lives are made of choices. In how we act and react to events in life, what we do as well. Some individuals like to use spirituality and religion to avoid asking big questions. Instead they mindlessly follow the ideologies of people making guesses. Every religion, every form of spirituality is just an opinion. Not a single one of them are true. 

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Habitat
46 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

What I mean by 'acceptable answer' is not necessarily an answer that has evidence supporting it, I mean any theoretical answer, even if it was fantasy,

That is just the point, even the fantasy claim is immediately seen to not be a possible "rational" explanation. If you are happy to admit reason has its limits, there is no problem, but one gets the sense that reason is the personal "God" of some, like "the market" is the God of some economists.

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Holy Hell. My comment really had nothing much to do with religion. No one knows why we exist, no one can say exact what caused anything organic to exist, it's a mystery. Our lives are made of choices. In how we act and react to events in life, what we do as well. Some individuals like to use spirituality and religion to avoid asking big questions. Instead they mindlessly follow the ideologies of people making guesses. Every religion, every form of spirituality is just an opinion. Not a single one of them are true. 

Anything organic ? that is easy to explain by science, it lies in the Carbon atom and its ability to conjoin with other elements, in a way that no other can. 

 

True religion is not for followers, it is for leaders, and it is as true as anything can be said to be true.

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psyche101
36 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Anything organic ? that is easy to explain by science, it lies in the Carbon atom and its ability to conjoin with other elements, in a way that no other can. 

 

True religion is not for followers, it is for leaders, and it is as true as anything can be said to be true.

For leaders??? 

Its been used by leaders but not to a beneficial end. 

And is not true as anything that can be said is true. 2+2=4 that's true and we can demonstrate it. Nothing in the universe indicates a god exists and nothing can demonstrate feasibility of that myth. The only place we find god to be is in man's writings. 

True religion is not for leaders. It's for manipulation. A tool of leaders used to control the masses. 

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Habitat
7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

For leaders??? 

Its been used by leaders but not to a beneficial end. 

And is not true as anything that can be said is true. 2+2=4 that's true and we can demonstrate it. Nothing in the universe indicates a god exists and nothing can demonstrate feasibility of that myth. The only place we find god to be is in man's writings. 

True religion is not for leaders. It's for manipulation. A tool of leaders used to control the masses. 

Your writings do have the virtue of consistency, if not accuracy.

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psyche101
16 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Your writings do have the virtue of consistency, if not accuracy.

They have both for those academically inclined, but not much for fundamentalists. I see your issue there. Most do I think. 

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psyche101
14 hours ago, joc said:

I am glad that you finally figured out that I AM God. 

Seriously though...why bring all the crapola of Urantia into it?  If the center of the universe is cloaked...then how does anyone know that it is there? I mean...it is cloaked.??

He has claimed directly to me that astronomers can see it as a fuzzy patch in space, but cannot focus on it. 

Naturally as an ametuer astronomer I asked for those coordinates and git religious babble to deflect the question. Still waiting for it. 

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Habitat
16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

They have both for those academically inclined, but not much for fundamentalists. I see your issue there. Most do I think. 

You can't see past fundamentalism, which is not surprising, as you are an intransigent fundamentalist of a different stripe. The true religiosity has something in kind with the lyrics of that old Peggy Lee song...."is that all there is".....because it is born out of an intuition that there really is something more, and I have every reason to believe, that is right. But, for those stranded in the dull landscape of materialism, the green fields of the greater reality, are not closed to you, other than by your cramped vision.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

That is just the point, even the fantasy claim is immediately seen to not be a possible "rational" explanation.

I guess that's not my point, my question is what specifically is the 'fantasy claim', rational or not, that answers the question 'why there is anything'?  If you can't propose one then again I don't know why you'd bring this in as if it's a limitation of science or reason, there's no deficiency in either of those if they fail to 'answer' questions that have no potential answers or are essentially nonsense/meaningless.

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

If you are happy to admit reason has its limits, there is no problem,

Sure, as long as you likewise understand that the idea that reason has limits provides precisely zero support for the existence of anything specific that supposedly dwells 'beyond' its supposed limitations.

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

but one gets the sense that reason is the personal "God" of some, like "the market" is the God of some economists.

I don't get that sense, and there is no shortage of reason in your posts either, almost like you think there just might be something to it also.  There are some philosophical/mathematical-type arguments for limitations of reason I believe but I don't think that's what you are referring to.  From a certain perspective your argument is mostly self-defeating, outside again of a couple specific philosophical observations:  in order for reason to have limits there must be something outside the limits of reason, but one can't demonstrate the existence of that something without using reason.  If we discover that something outside of reason exists then we used reason to determine that, so it was never really 'outside reason' in the first place.  Thus, we almost can't know if there are limits to reason.

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Guyver
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

The question of why we exist is pointless. The question of what we do with our existence is not. 

Right.....it’s just that it’s almost become a platitude around here now.  I mean of course you are right, 100 percent... except for one thing as I see it.  I’m not sure the question is actually pointless.  It may be, or it may not be.  I'm personally actually very interested in that question and have been for a long time.

I’m actually kind of convinced that there probably  is a reason for why we’re here, and furthermore, I’m currently in a place of believing that everything is as it should be. 

i mean, I don’t want to get off on a rant or anything, but what people have been able to do over the years is pretty fascinating.  As an example....take the player piano.  That’s quite a marvel.  Not only because of its technological capability (quite remarkable considering that time and place), but the science behind it.  The vast amount of information and the complexity with defined purpose to express energy, matter, and information - and with such result - it’s just astounding.  IMO.  I think people often take this for granted in this setting sometimes.

The player piano could rock those saloons back in the day.

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Davros of Skaro

I think it depends on the person wether their God belief is fear based, or not. With that said the OT God is comprised of scare tactics, but some people cherry pick the fuzzy wuzzy parts (especially when the NT is part of the belief).

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Guyver
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Holy Hell. My comment really had nothing much to do with religion. No one knows why we exist, no one can say exact what caused

lol.  Sorry to have cut that off.  I just wanted to say that first part is funny.  So contradictory.  Holy hell, how ironic.  Anyway, I agree with you no one knows why we’re here.

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Guyver
11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

From what I've gather from some of Will's post. It seems he projects his ideal father figure into his idea of God. I could be wrong, but considering he's admitted that his father was an angry atheist. I might be right.

Who cares?  Why does it even have to be about Will?  Will is entitled to his beliefs and opinions just like you and every swinging richard around here.  You and all the other atheists, and pretty much most everyone else just don’t want to address his position.

You’d rather just find a way to dismiss him.  That’s what sucks here.

Will’s point is that knowing God is a matter of faith and experience that a person has to live to know.  There’s nothing wrong with that.  You atheists don’t want any of that, then don’t get you any.  But Will is just as likely to be right as you are to be right.

And I’m guessing that most of you atheists have tried religion and/or faith just like I have, and found it didn’t work for you.  It didn’t work for me either but I’m not an atheist.  Just because it doesn’t work for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for others and just because you didn’t get what you were looking for doesn’t mean there’s no God, no soul, no spirit, no afterlife, or any of those other things.

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psyche101
23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You can't see past fundamentalism, which is not surprising, as you are an intransigent fundamentalist of a different stripe.

That's contradictory. The cutting edge of science is fluidic.

23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

The true religiosity has something in kind with the lyrics of that old Peggy Lee song...."is that all there is".....because it is born out of an intuition that there really is something more, and I have every reason to believe, that is right. But, for those stranded in the dull landscape of materialism, the green fields of the greater reality, are not closed to you, other than by your cramped vision.

I'd rather understand the most mundane reality than pretend the most desirable utopia exists. Pretend land holds no value for me and I honestly fail to see what you see in creating such a place in your mind where they play old songs in your personal utopia. True religiosity is self delusion. Nothing more. 

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