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Scudbuster

Religion........ and its Deep Roots of Fear

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

Check out fully the links I provided, and then wait for my next post on the subject.

I checked out the links you provided.  Neither of those links prove that the God of Abraham is a myth.  The brain mechanisms, and specifically the emphasis of dopamine has nothing to do with the Abrahamic God, and everything to do with human physiology.  The Temple Cleansing Fiction thread you made.....could be true, the temple cleansing could be a myth or fabrication.  This in no way proves that Abraham's God is a myth.  You are equating the bible to the God of Abraham if you are attempting this line of logic.....and that would be fallacious.  Disproving the bible (given that it could be done) doesn't disprove the existence of God, it just demonstrates that the bible is not describing that "God" or Supreme Being that created the universe.  If it could or you think that it could....then you're basically making the argument that God is a book.  Of course, that's nonsense.  

Saying something even because you believe it to be true or have facts to support your opinion is not proving something.  To prove something you must provide facts that are basically incontrovertible and demonstrate how they directly relate to the thing you're trying to prove.   

So, I'll look forward to your next post on the subject because I'm interested in seeing if you can actually prove what you claim.  I don't think you can.  But if you prove me wrong, I will give you props for it.  

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Guyver

There.....that's the way I intended to post this video the first time.  This video goes into depth explaining the math describing the other dimensions I have been discussing, and it's done in a way to make the ideas easy to understand.  It does not make any claims about these other dimensions, God or angels, or any other such thing.....but it does demonstrate why the existence of other dimensions is not only possible, but probable.  

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

There.....that's the way I intended to post this video the first time.  This video goes into depth explaining the math describing the other dimensions I have been discussing, and it's done in a way to make the ideas easy to understand.  It does not make any claims about these other dimensions, God or angels, or any other such thing.....but it does demonstrate why the existence of other dimensions is not only possible, but probable.  

What does this have to do with the subject at hand? 

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Guyver
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

What does this have to do with the subject at hand? 

You mean the OP, or the conversations I've been having in this thread?

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XenoFish
Just now, Guyver said:

You mean the OP, or the conversations I've been having in this thread?

Period. 

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Guyver
Just now, XenoFish said:

Period. 

Well, the OP offers that religion has it's roots in fear, and I agree.  We fear what we don't know.....death being maybe the biggest example.  What has come to light in recent decades is a wealth of information about the universe that ancient people didn't know - and we still have much to learn.  I am offering the opinion and possibility that what people have thought of as "God" or gods, could also be directly related to a part of physical reality that we don't know exists.

In the same way that scientific theories and mathematical models lead to new discoveries and understanding......I believe this video explains the extra-dimension universe as being a real thing in some way.  Since, going from one dimension to another leads to such an enormous difference in both understanding and reality, I'm suggesting that these extra dimensions could offer an explanation for the existence of what people think of as God or a Supreme Being.  I'm not claiming that it is or that I can prove it.....but I'm offering it as one possible explanation.  

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XenoFish

Terrible explanation. 

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Guyver
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Terrible explanation. 

What?  Sorry to hear you think so.  I was trying to be clear.  Maybe you should just watch the video.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

What?  Sorry to hear you think so.  I was trying to be clear.  Maybe you should just watch the video.

I'm not watching a video. A 30 minute one at that. What you're doing is adding a science element to manmade myth and creating a new mythos. God as some 11th dimensional being or wtf-ever. 

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Guyver
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm not watching a video. A 30 minute one at that. What you're doing is adding a science element to manmade myth and creating a new mythos. God as some 11th dimensional being or wtf-ever. 

Suit yourself.

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joc
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Right, but you just gave an example of the difference.  It is between thinking and knowing.  A belief is thinking, and actual truth is knowing.  If you don't actually know, then it's not truth.  The truth is that Johnny did not assault Suzy.....but some people believed he did.  Johnny and Suzy knew the truth and the others did not.  This is the exact reason why I called your truth a belief.  You don't have the facts and you don't know.  

I never claimed that these "gods" represent the truth.  The fact that billions of people believe they are is not proof.  So, we actually agree on this point.  

It doesn't have to compute with us to be true.  For thousands of years people existed, thrived, flourished, reproduced and died and never knew there was any such thing as the square root of two.  But the square root of two exists and can be proven.  The fact that no one knew it or believed it until Pythagoras doesn't change the fact that it was true, even though no one knew it.   

You think that something mathematically demonstrated means it's unproven?  Mathematics is the language of physics.  The fact that they are not "proven" now doesn't mean they won't be in the future.  It's just like the square root of two.  It wasn't proven until it was proven.  The laws of physics are as we understand them and have the ability to explain them.  As I said before, reality may exist in more dimensions than we currently understand....which means we have more to learn about the laws of physics.  

It may very well be that all the "gods" of all the people throughout the years are myths.  That doesn't change the fact that God, or something like that may in fact exist.  I don't understand how this point is not understood.  People's faulty beliefs or ideas do not limit the possibility of something unknown existing.  An unknown is just that. 

Hacking Reality

The truth is that the faulty beliefs are not true.

We dreamed something up in an attempt to explain unknowns...like thunder and rain.  In no way should we expect that ideas of voodooisms. based on insufficient knowledge of our environment are actually a possibility. There are no gods...you asked what the truth I discovered was and that is it. I don't give a damn about string theory, etc.

God is a myth...that is the truth. 

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Guyver
14 minutes ago, joc said:

The truth is that the faulty beliefs are not true.

Right.

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God is a myth...that is the truth.

Wrong.  That’s a faulty belief.

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XenoFish
21 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Wrong.  That’s a faulty belief.

What evidence do you have to support this claim? Do you in fact have evidence of God?

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Guyver
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

What evidence do you have to support this claim? Do you in fact have evidence of God?

Of course.  It’s just not the kind you would appreciate so there’s no point in discussing it.  Kinda like the video I posted that you won’t watch.  

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Davros of Skaro
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Were you one of those in the gallery at the US Senate yesterday that got removed for interupting the proceedings?

Oh... So you're 12 years old in mental capacity (probably the age where your problematic father was roughest on you?). Got it.

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

I checked out the links you provided.  Neither of those links prove that the God of Abraham is a myth.  The brain mechanisms, and specifically the emphasis of dopamine has nothing to do with the Abrahamic God, and everything to do with human physiology.  The Temple Cleansing Fiction thread you made.....could be true, the temple cleansing could be a myth or fabrication.  This in no way proves that Abraham's God is a myth. 

I highly doubt you took the time to check it all out. The TCF is mostly NT stuff, but has big dents for OT things as well. The neurological, and psychological info shows the science behind hallucinations, thought addiction among other things which is a major factor for fallacious reasoning.

You're sick, and bored so why not further you're learning?

I do not want to dip into the info I'm preparing for down the road. But the creation story in Genesis alone disproves the Abrahamic God. Theists take great confirmation bias on that account.

For one thing do I really need to explain how ancient goat herders can easily come up with "Let there be light" with no knowledge whatsoever of modern cosmology? You're going to say yes so think about this; Take a black table. Say "Hhhmmn it needs something". Now pour a palm full of white sand in the middle. Now spread it out on the black table. How about that! You just created a model of the night sky. 

How does this disprove a God’s act of "Let there be light"? I just shown how easily primative man can conceive this tale. Now let's give it a ratio: 50% Abrahamic God true account vs 50% Man made myth. This is a 1 in 2 chance that the Biblical God is real. Now look at the rest of the creation account where things have gotten it right to things gotten wrong compared through evidence. The Abrahamic God is not looking so good. Any person of sound reason, not blinded by faith can see this, and even those protective of believers can see it as well.

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

You are equating the bible to the God of Abraham if you are attempting this line of logic.....and that would be fallacious. 

You're sick so I will excuse this brain fart.

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Disproving the bible (given that it could be done) doesn't disprove the existence of God, it just demonstrates that the bible is not describing that "God" or Supreme Being that created the universe.  If it could or you think that it could....then you're basically making the argument that God is a book.  Of course, that's nonsense.  

I already admitted previously I cannot disprove a hypothetical God, or Gods. Though from the evidence I see it less likely. If I were to be Theistic? It would be a form of Deism.

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Saying something even because you believe it to be true or have facts to support your opinion is not proving something.  To prove something you must provide facts that are basically incontrovertible and demonstrate how they directly relate to the thing you're trying to prove.   

I do my best. I'm not perfect, but can be assertive when I believe evidence backs it up. :tsu:

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

So, I'll look forward to your next post on the subject because I'm interested in seeing if you can actually prove what you claim.  I don't think you can.  But if you prove me wrong, I will give you props for it.  

The responses for that post will fall as I have predicted. 

As for your multidimensional discussion. I've been aware of it since Carl Sagan's analogy of "Flatland" in Cosmos, and as of late talks by Michio Kaku. Who knows what knowledge the future holds? Why hold on to superstition that not only distorts understanding, but also acts as an hamster wheel.

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Of course.  It’s just not the kind you would appreciate so there’s no point in discussing it.  Kinda like the video I posted that you won’t watch.  

Are it's that I've seen stuff like it before. It's not exactly new as Davros pointed out.

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Guyver
46 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

I highly doubt you took the time to check it all out. The TCF is mostly NT stuff, but has big dents for OT things as well. The neurological, and psychological info shows the science behind hallucinations, thought addiction among other things which is a major factor for fallacious reasoning.

You're sick, and bored so why not further you're learning?

As I said, I checked out the links.  So, to be more clear for you.....I watched the video and read your OP.  In this case, your high doubt was misplaced.  It doesn't prove that Abraham's God was a myth.  

Quote

I do not want to dip into the info I'm preparing for down the road. But the creation story in Genesis alone disproves the Abrahamic God. Theists take great confirmation bias on that account.

The bible is a collection of ancient writings, God is considered to be the Supreme Being, the maker of the universe.  How you consider faulty or improbable information found in the first of a collection of ancient writings to be proof that God doesn't exist is beyond me.  Or, maybe we're arguing semantics now.  Abraham called God the Judge of All the Earth, and Genesis claims God is the maker of the universe.  If you're attempting to prove that the God spoken of in the pages of the bible is a myth, then you can certainly make an argument for that case.  But to use the bible text as a basis for disproving the existence of the actual Supreme Being is what I was calling fallacious.  If that's not what you were doing, then I take it back.  

Quote

For one thing do I really need to explain how ancient goat herders can easily come up with "Let there be light" with no knowledge whatsoever of modern cosmology? You're going to say yes so think about this; Take a black table. Say "Hhhmmn it needs something". Now pour a palm full of white sand in the middle. Now spread it out on the black table. How about that! You just created a model of the night sky. 

When you use the term "ancient goat herders" you express your acculturation from this place that you gained from other posters here of a mindset similar to your own.  That identifies the same kind of cognitive bias that you criticize theists of having.  The same neuromotor rewards that apply to your position directed at theist thought addiction applies to you and other people who post here.  You post here because you get a rush out of it and some intrinsic reward that activates the same centers illustrated in the video you provided.  

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You're sick so I will excuse this brain fart.

I am sick, but that was no brain fart.  The bible's description of God in one sense as supreme being is the Maker of All Things.  That's the same concept of God that many people have, myself included - who are not necessarily bible believers.  Disproving.....or rather.....finding fault with the bible does not disprove the Creator of the Universe if in fact one does exist.  It would be a brain fart to think it does....because the two are not the same.  

The bible exists, so there is no disproving it.  If you'd like to point out that modern day understanding is in conflict with stories from the bible....then that's just nifty.  However, if you are ever able to "disprove" the bible.....then what you have done is disproven the bible.....NOT proven that God is a myth.  

Quote

As for your multidimensional discussion. I've been aware of it since Carl Sagan's analogy of "Flatland" in Cosmos, and as of late talks by Michio Kaku. Who knows what knowledge the future holds? Why hold on to superstition that not only distorts understanding, but also acts as an hamster wheel.

I'm glad to hear that you're somewhat familiar with the concepts, but the video I posted discusses new discoveries in the field of mathematics that Carl Sagan had no knowledge of.  In any event, I'm not supporting holding on to any superstitions, nor do I consider myself a superstitious person.  So, I think this is misdirected, though I understand the criticism.  I think I hear you saying that even if multidimensionalism can be proven to be a real thing (which it has BTW), then there's no reason to make the leap to God from that position.  I do agree and accept this criticism as being valid.  Yet, I have reasons for doing so; just as you have reasons for doing what you do.  

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Guyver
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Are it's that I've seen stuff like it before. It's not exactly new as Davros pointed out.

String Theory is not new - true.  But the video is not about string theory and it is based on recent mathematical discoveries.  But, what you care?  You are unconcerned and don't wish to learn anything new.  You have your position and you like it just fine......just like Joc does.  

That's great for you and Joc, and I don't hold it against either of you.  We have nothing to argue about.  

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, Guyver said:

String Theory is not new - true.  But the video is not about string theory and it is based on recent mathematical discoveries.  But, what you care?  You are unconcerned and don't wish to learn anything new.  You have your position and you like it just fine......just like Joc does.  

That's great for you and Joc, and I don't hold it against either of you.  We have nothing to argue about.  

Your attitude really freaking sucks you know that. You're assuming I don't care. I've had my interest and I put them on the shelf. Why, because idiots like to connect imaginary dots and claim a bunch of spiritual bull**** is true, which they know jack. It's like every freaking moron who claims that quantum physics validates the law of attraction. What I'm getting from you is that whole 'fill in the blank' effect. Do you want god to be a higher dimensional being or what? Fact is not a damn person on this planet know if god exist or not. What we have here is man-made myths and they're all just opinions, not facts. Another thing is that you do hold it against joc and myself, if you didn't you wouldn't persist in shoving that damn video in our faces. As if it proves something. Make up your freaking mind, do you believe in god or not? 

Edited by XenoFish
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joc
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Right.

Wrong.  That’s a faulty belief.

 Guyver, it isn't a belief. It is a deduction based on physical lack of evidence of anything else. It is not that I believe that God's are a myth. One can only believe the gods are not. Or one can just simply Punt and say duh, I don't know.

Non-belief is not the same thing as belief.

One can believe in God's and that's fine... But there's no empirical evidence of anything regarding gods. There's plenty of empirical evidence the gods are a myth.

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joc
2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Of course.  It’s just not the kind you would appreciate so there’s no point in discussing it.  Kinda like the video I posted that you won’t watch.  

 What kind of proof is not appreciated?  

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Guyver
47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Your attitude really freaking sucks you know that. 

Lol.  Well, you'll have to pardon me if I find that a tad ironic.....You calling ME out for a bad attitude.  Anyway....no I don't know that my attitude sucks, and I don't know why you think so, because you didn't say.  

Quote

You're assuming I don't care.

Yes....and for good reason.  You come in here with pithy one-liners and don't even want to take the time to research the positions I present.  Then, when I attempt to explain my position to you......you criticize my explanation.  

Quote

I've had my interest and I put them on the shelf. Why, because idiots like to connect imaginary dots and claim a bunch of spiritual bull**** is true, which they know jack. It's like every freaking moron who claims that quantum physics validates the law of attraction. What I'm getting from you is that whole 'fill in the blank' effect. Do you want god to be a higher dimensional being or what? Fact is not a damn person on this planet know if god exist or not. What we have here is man-made myths and they're all just opinions, not facts. Another thing is that you do hold it against joc and myself, if you didn't you wouldn't persist in shoving that damn video in our faces. As if it proves something. Make up your freaking mind, do you believe in god or not? 

Look Xeno, there's plenty of nutsacks in this world....OK?  I get it.  Jim Jones, David Koresh....etc, and so forth all a bunch of religious wacko's.  And there's plenty of faulty issues that religious people have, I get it.  I'm not over here attempting to defend any of that nonsense, and I will call BS on it just as fast as you or any other thinking person.  I look at things with logic and reason as I understand it, and attempt to understand this world just like you and every one else does.

No, I don't WANT God to be a higher dimensional being or whatever.  Even if I did, how would that change anything?  You can want or wish in one hand all day long, then go poop in the other and see which one gets full faster.  I do believe in God because I have good reason to.  I don't know what God is, even though I resent using the term what in reference to him.  There is something like God in this universe, I know this because of personal experience.  I don't know what it is, I don't care if you or anyone else believes me and I"m not going to try and make any converts.  But I am going to speak the truth as I understand it.  

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Guyver
31 minutes ago, joc said:

 What kind of proof is not appreciated?  

Personal experience presented to skeptics regarding something they disbelieve.  

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Guyver
42 minutes ago, joc said:

 Guyver, it isn't a belief. It is a deduction based on physical lack of evidence of anything else. It is not that I believe that God's are a myth. One can only believe the gods are not. Or one can just simply Punt and say duh, I don't know.

Non-belief is not the same thing as belief.

One can believe in God's and that's fine... But there's no empirical evidence of anything regarding gods. There's plenty of empirical evidence the gods are a myth.

That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it.  I disagree with you but I don't see any need to argue about it. 

In any event, I think that's about all I have to say, so I will leave you all in peace.  

Edited by Guyver
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Habitat

Wow, I am very impressed with Guyver and his points, and the way he is handling the "usual" rabble here, this is ripping stuff. Then again, it is easy to look good in contrast to those dolts ! Still, probably the best attitude I have ever seen in one of these "debates". Guyver seems like he has made real progress down the road of realisation, others unfortunately, and their narky attitude shows it, are still stuck in a rut at the side of the road.

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