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Eldorado

14 million Britons are living in poverty

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ethereal_scout

I'm for not having to work and yes it should be a cradle to grave lifestyle choice. In any case school was work enough for many people. The denominational bit is important in my world - catholic is works a moral wrong, catholics shouldn't join the masons. Work is therefore 'criminal' or dead. The Popes outlook - "you've done enough my son". Protestant is work is a moral obligation. ie work and be free. However the free market (hire and fire) and increasing mechanisation of the work place will mean we forever have a large chunk of the population that will never work. Welfare should be generous in my opinion.

 

Edited by ethereal_scout

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Grey Area
22 minutes ago, ethereal_scout said:

I'm for not having to work and yes it should be a cradle to grave lifestyle choice. In any case school was work enough for many people. The denominational bit is important in my world - catholic is works a moral wrong, catholics shouldn't join the masons. Work is therefore 'criminal' or dead. The Popes outlook - "you've done enough my son". Protestant is work is a moral obligation. ie work and be free. However the free market (hire and fire) and increasing mechanisation of the work place will mean we forever have a large chunk of the population that will never work. Welfare should be generous in my opinion.

 

What you don’t seem to grasp is that those who don’t work and claim welfare are propped up by those that do work (taxes).

This isn’t Star Trek where everyone suddenly developes an altruistic work ethic, if people didn’t work the country would fall apart.

Why should those who choose laziness over contribution be rewarded with excess?

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freetoroam
36 minutes ago, ethereal_scout said:

In any case school was work enough for many people

School is not work...it is a time for education. 

 

37 minutes ago, ethereal_scout said:

The Popes outlook

Lol...i do not care what the guy surrounded by riches and paedophiles says.

38 minutes ago, ethereal_scout said:

Welfare should be generous in my opinion.

Welfare comes from us tax payers...is no one works, where do you think the money will come from? 

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aztek
3 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Why should those who choose laziness over contribution be rewarded with excess?

it is the progressive way, and it resonates with...... those that live on your dime

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aztek
3 hours ago, freetoroam said:

Welfare comes from us tax payers...is no one works, where do you think the money will come from? 

you think they give a crap??  they want money for nothing, everything else do not matter to them, they have no respect or consideration for taxpayers.

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stevewinn
On 18/09/2018 at 10:40 AM, toast said:

No Steve, being employed does not always means to get out of poverty, especially when the wage of the job is such little that these ppl need additional support by the welfare system.

There is a legal minimum wage. For the lowest paid they pay no tax on income. Then we have working tax credits, paid by the state. If you claim tax credits it usually qualifies help with council tax, rent. Free prescriptions, dental and eye checks. 

 It's all about personal choice, @Ouija

 

Edited by stevewinn

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Mr.United_Nations

Poverty is where you have no access to water, heating, electricity, food, healthcare, money and a home to live in. Not kids with the latest gadgets 

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ouija ouija
1 hour ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Poverty is where you have no access to water, heating, electricity, food, healthcare, money and a home to live in. Not kids with the latest gadgets 

Poverty is relative to the community you are living in.

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NicoletteS
On 9/18/2018 at 10:11 AM, aztek said:

if you work full time and not getting enough to rent, you are doing something wrong,

Well not me personally i dont work for anybody and i make plenty but i have been there and i see everybody else around and what the wages and prices are. When i was a waitress i saved my wages and tips for rent and was still hungry so i know minimum wage couldnt be enough plus that was ten years ago rent prices have doubled.

Edited by NicoletteS

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Coil

Interesting situation and in Ukraine there since 2014 the level of people below the poverty line has increased from 15 to 25%. Pensioners do not even have enough pension to pay for utilities for one heating, not to mention food, medicine and other expenses. I do not know if there is any other country where life is worse because even in Honduras some indicators of the standard of living are higher. And now they are preparing a new tariff increase because they took the loan from the IMF and need to give money at the expense of the people.I do not know what kind of fool will Poroshenko vote again in the upcoming presidential election because life during his reign has become much worse than under previous presidents and premiers. And the Russian invasion fell at this time, but this is not the main reason for the deterioration of the economy .

Edited by Coil
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aztek
3 hours ago, NicoletteS said:

Well not me personally i dont work for anybody and i make plenty but i have been there and i see everybody else around and what the wages and prices are. When i was a waitress i saved my wages and tips for rent and was still hungry so i know minimum wage couldnt be enough plus that was ten years ago rent prices have doubled.

i realize that, many people have dead end jobs that pay very little, and you can't really survive on it, but that does not change what i said,  such jobs waitress\fast food employee.... etc, are not meant for supporting a family, or to be only income to live on. this is what school kids and college students should be doing, or as a temp job, but if that is all you got, you made wrong choices in life.

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ouija ouija
On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 12:48 PM, Eldorado said:

""Inescapable" costs, like childcare and disability, should be considered alongside income when measuring poverty in the UK, experts say.

The Social Metrics Commission says the proposals make "significant changes to our understanding" of poverty."

"A UK government spokeswoman said: "Measuring poverty is complex, and this report offers further insight into that complexity and the additional measures that can be taken into consideration."

"The SMC measure sets a poverty threshold of 55% of median total available resources – in effect creating a poverty line relative to what the median family has available to spend. A key principle of the measure is that poverty "should be related to the extent to which people have the resources to engage adequately in a life regarded as the norm in society".

Leeds school teachers buying sanitary products and washing clothes for their pupils.
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/leeds-school-teachers-pay-sanitary-15147401

Good points, El.

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 1:01 PM, stevewinn said:

Disgusting, How can anyone be in poverty when we have a generous welfare system. Which many travel hundreds of miles, across vast continents to claim. heck, were so generous we pay for child benefit for children not even living in the UK. 

The welfare system is not generous, let's be absolutely clear about that. Being on benefits for any length of time is soul-destroying, especially being born into a family living on benefits. The fact that many travel hundreds of miles to take advantage of our system simply indicates that the situation is even worse in their homeland ..... is this something that you wish to perpetuate: millions living miserable lives? Any failures in the system are due to the Government not the poor.

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 3:27 PM, hetrodoxly said:

It makes a mockery of poverty, i was listening to some hand wringer on the radio last week who claimed poverty was so bad that something like 1 in 10 children have to share a bed with another child, i was 1 of 11 kids 2 to a bed would have been a luxury, my dad never missed a days work in his life everthing was paid for, at not once did we ever consider ourselves to be in poverty.

If everything was paid for and he was able to support eleven children, then your dad was obviously earning a decent wage. Why would you consider yourselves to be in poverty? :unsure2: Sounds as if you were simply space poor.

On ‎18‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:36 AM, stevewinn said:

The problem is not the washing but the fact the person is on benefits in the first place which means they are out of work. As am sure most will agree benefits are a safety net not a lifestyle choice. And that's the crux of the matter personal choice. 

There is no excuse not having a job. A quarter of a million migrant workers leave their homeland and come to the UK for a job and get one, being employed is the biggest step you can make to get out of poverty. 

As I said its all personal choice, but sadly no matter what system is in place to prevent poverty there will always be people who won't or can't help themselves and fall through the cracks. 

You are absolutely right: benefits are not a lifestyle choice .......... unless they are combined with criminal activity! Living solely on benefits is absolutely miserable and soul destroying ....... no one would choose it. For most, it is certainly not a matter of personal choice.

'There is no excuse for not having a job' .... are you kidding me?! The majority of migrants have the most appalling jobs that barely allow them to survive. British workers, quite rightly, refuse to do them. Local example: picking cabbages. Migrant workers were living six or more in a caravan(not weatherproof), meant for one or two people, and eating only the cabbages they picked because they couldn't afford anything else.  They couldn't afford the bus fare into town. And before you say 'Ah, that's just a one off', in this county the situation is so bad we actually have a police woman who deals with nothing else but the problems of migrant workers.

Another reason why people don't have jobs is that not everyone is capable of doing the jobs that are available! Being employed may well be the biggest step you can take to get out of poverty, but  many, many people need a lot of help to achieve that step. Not everyone has the mental capacity and prolonged determination to 'pull themselves up by their boot straps'. A lot of employed people are unhappy and stressed with their work situation(to say nothing of conditions when commuting!), so perhaps the solution is for everyone to work share. Everyone works but has a lot more leisure time to unwind in. Allotments for all! Exercise in the fresh air and food on the table at the end of the day ...... brilliant! Trouble is, those with the money have the power and they are not going to let it go. It benefits them to keep the unemployed 'underclass' and the lower paid workers at each others' throats and hating and despising each other. That way, no one is scrutinising what they are doing!

 I think you vastly underestimate the numbers of people who find it an insurmountable challenge to improve their lives ...... they just haven't got the resources within themselves. Or the strength to maintain that impetus year in, year out with so little to show for it.

Post by Grey Area which I inadvertently deleted: What you don't seem to grasp is that those who don't work and claim welfare are propped up by those who do work(taxes).

This isn't Star Trek where everyone suddenly develops an altruistic work ethic, if people didn't work the country would fall apart.

Why should those who choose laziness over contribution be rewarded with excess?

Firstly, every penny handed out in benefits immediately goes back out into the economy. Those in receipt have to pay for food, heating, travel etc.etc. so one way or another they are keeping you in work. It is very lazy of you to lump everyone on benefits together as being lazy. Have you ever stopped to really think of all the reasons why people end up having to take money off the state? Have you ever thought that the people on benefits shown on the television, apparently living the life of Riley, are in fact an extreme minority chosen for their shock value? Have you considered that that same extreme minority are likely to be involved in crime and that is why they have expensive cars, clothes, phones, watches, games etc.? And while I'm talking about crime, has it occurred to you that the temptation to involve yourself in it is surely a thousand times stronger than if you are rich? Why should the poor, already living dull, impoverished lives be expected to have an iron will when all around them is the evidence of individuals enjoying excesses that they haven't truly earned? I'm talking about footballers, 'celebrities', royalty, government etc.etc.  

On ‎18‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:05 PM, freetoroam said:

Welfare comes from us tax payers...is no one works, where do you think the money will come from? 

Have you ever considered that if everyone on benefits was, overnight, taken out of the equation, a huge percentage of taxpayers would suddenly find themselves out of a job? Every single penny handed out to those on benefits goes straight out again to pay for food, electricity, heating, clothing, travel, etc.etc. Those on benefits are not being given 'your' money to stash away for a rainy day, they are using it to survive and also to maintain your job! 

On ‎19‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 11:32 AM, stevewinn said:

There is a legal minimum wage. For the lowest paid they pay no tax on income. Then we have working tax credits, paid by the state. If you claim tax credits it usually qualifies help with council tax, rent. Free prescriptions, dental and eye checks. 

 It's all about personal choice, @Ouija

 

No Steve, it really isn't! We are not equal in our abilities ..... mental or physical .... not everyone is able to do every job that becomes available. Some people won't be able to take up a job because they can't afford to travel to it; some people can't take up jobs because the wage doesn't cover child care or ill parent care; the jobs that immigrants take in this country are often demeaning or so badly paid that they are barely surviving. Workers in this country quite rightly avoid taking these jobs and I wonder why you, and other posters here, seem to think a large chunk of society, in the 21st century, should be living a 19th century life. Where has this superior attitude come from? I can only think that you have never been in a situation where you are dependant on the state for any length of time. If you had been, you would be much more sympathetic towards those who are born into it. If the benefits system was so amazing we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. If the Government ensured that only British citizens could be supported by the welfare system then we would be in a better place. If the minimum wage was at a level where people could have a decent life from it, then the unemployed could be made to take up any job they were capable of doing. So blame the Government(past and present), for the problem, not the people who are trapped in it.

And as to all the wonderful things that you list at the beginning of your post, have you ever tried claiming any of them? You make it sound as if one only has to click one's fingers to receive this bounty! The reality is an absolute nightmare that can very quickly lead to rock bottom self-esteem and depression(that is not an exaggeration). 

On ‎19‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 2:03 PM, Mr.United_Nations said:

Poverty is where you have no access to water, heating, electricity, food, healthcare, money and a home to live in. Not kids with the latest gadgets 

I'm afraid your mind-set is about a century out of date. 'Poverty' has, quite rightly, been redefined for the 21st century. Don't you want everyone to be living reasonably comfortable, fulfilling lives? 

Edited by ouija ouija
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hetrodoxly
1 hour ago, ouija ouija said:

the jobs that immigrants take in this country are often demeaning or so badly paid that they are barely surviving

After Brexit big Bussness and the multi nationals will no longer have a ready supply of cheap labour so will have to pay better wages as they did before.

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Essan
7 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

After Brexit big Bussness and the multi nationals will no longer have a ready supply of cheap labour so will have to pay better wages as they did before.

Thus pushing up prices and increasing inflation ......   whilst Britons flock to buy cheaper imports resulting in job losses as British business go bust.

People have never earned so much.  But they have also never wanted so much.   We are the orchestraters of our own demise.

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hetrodoxly
29 minutes ago, Essan said:

Thus pushing up prices and increasing inflation ......   whilst Britons flock to buy cheaper imports resulting in job losses as British business go bust.

They flock for 'cheaper imports' now, a larg % of what's earned by the none permenant residence goes out of the country, we could loose a million jobs making little differance to the inhabitance of the UK.

 

36 minutes ago, Essan said:

People have never earned so much.  But they have also never wanted so much.   We are the orchestraters of our own demise.

True.

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Grey Area
3 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Firstly, every penny handed out in benefits immediately goes back out into the economy. 

Apart from benefits that don't and go back to the public purse.

3 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Those in receipt have to pay for food, heating, travel etc.etc. so one way or another they are keeping you in work.

Lazy argument, you could argue that of almost any job, but ask yourself this, does their contribution to this employment that they inadvertently provide outweigh the contribution they take from those that they pay for?

3 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Have you ever stopped to really think of all the reasons why people end up having to take money off the state? Have you ever thought that the people on benefits shown on the television, apparently living the life of Riley, are in fact an extreme minority chosen for their shock value? Have you considered that that same extreme minority are likely to be involved in crime and that is why they have expensive cars, clothes, phones, watches, games etc.? And while I'm talking about crime, has it occurred to you that the temptation to involve yourself in it is surely a thousand times stronger than if you are rich?

You are preaching to the wrong person, I work for the Local Government, I know better than most what goes down in the poorest households in the country.  I would ask you to look at my response in the context of the statement it was responding to, about benefits and unemployment being a lifestyle choice, and should be higher to enable people to want to make that choice.  I understand totally that many who are in receipt of benefits are desperate, but for those that simply choose not to work (and there are those) or those who seek to exploit and profit from the goodwill of the tax payers my statement is valid.

As for crime, now who is stereotyping?

 

 

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