History Channel Show. Offensive???

[hetrodoxly]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In general, she had no choice. And those who might be claimed to have been proud were a small minority who benefited from the enterprise of empire. 

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

Not true, I'm afraid. Pádraig Pearce was an Irishman, born in Ireland and reared by a very disaffected Englishman and an Irish-speaking mother.

Unpopular with some, especially those Dublin women who were living off their husband's British Army pay. I agree the executions turned the silent majority into opposers of the imperial regime and supporters of Irish independence. They came out in force for the 1918 General Election and gave Sinn Féin a landslide victory, sweeping away most of the old Unionist/Loyalist representation. 

History is what history is, or was. You may try to spin it - as indeed, you have tried here - or selectively interpret them but the facts of history taken in their totality cannot be gainsaid and will always speak for themselves. Songs against English/British/Monarchic rule in Ireland have been composed and sung for centuries. All the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence did was to give more inspiration to new rebel songs. 

I agree that people and bricklayers should everywhere be equal but not so in the experience of Irish people within the British Empire. The majority of native Irish, in general, were discriminated against by a certain class and type of 'British' subject who was able to exercise a privileged power over others.  I also agree that the Irish and English/British get along fine when we meet but forums and topics like this - see 'Opening Gambits of the Brexit Negotiations', for example -  always expose the hidden prejudice of some who are not shy about using the anonymity thus afforded them to indulge their  baser xenophobic instincts.

I look forward to Al Murray's series on the History Channel. I hope I will have time to catch them all. I'm sure it will be funny but I hope it will be historically accurate and fair, and will have integrity.

I disagree.

[hetrodoxly]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In general, she had no choice. And those who might be claimed to have been proud were a small minority who benefited from the enterprise of empire. 

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

Not true, I'm afraid. Pádraig Pearce was an Irishman, born in Ireland and reared by a very disaffected Englishman and an Irish-speaking mother.

Unpopular with some, especially those Dublin women who were living off their husband's British Army pay. I agree the executions turned the silent majority into opposers of the imperial regime and supporters of Irish independence. They came out in force for the 1918 General Election and gave Sinn Féin a landslide victory, sweeping away most of the old Unionist/Loyalist representation. 

History is what history is, or was. You may try to spin it - as indeed, you have tried here - or selectively interpret them but the facts of history taken in their totality cannot be gainsaid and will always speak for themselves. Songs against English/British/Monarchic rule in Ireland have been composed and sung for centuries. All the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence did was to give more inspiration to new rebel songs. 

I agree that people and bricklayers should everywhere be equal but not so in the experience of Irish people within the British Empire. The majority of native Irish, in general, were discriminated against by a certain class and type of 'British' subject who was able to exercise a privileged power over others.  I also agree that the Irish and English/British get along fine when we meet but forums and topics like this - see 'Opening Gambits of the Brexit Negotiations', for example -  always expose the hidden prejudice of some who are not shy about using the anonymity thus afforded them to indulge their  baser xenophobic instincts.

I look forward to Al Murray's series on the History Channel. I hope I will have time to catch them all. I'm sure it will be funny but I hope it will be historically accurate and fair, and will have integrity.

I disagree

[hetrodoxly]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In general, she had no choice. And those who might be claimed to have been proud were a small minority who benefited from the enterprise of empire. 

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

Not true, I'm afraid. Pádraig Pearce was an Irishman, born in Ireland and reared by a very disaffected Englishman and an Irish-speaking mother.

Unpopular with some, especially those Dublin women who were living off their husband's British Army pay. I agree the executions turned the silent majority into opposers of the imperial regime and supporters of Irish independence. They came out in force for the 1918 General Election and gave Sinn Féin a landslide victory, sweeping away most of the old Unionist/Loyalist representation. 

History is what history is, or was. You may try to spin it - as indeed, you have tried here - or selectively interpret them but the facts of history taken in their totality cannot be gainsaid and will always speak for themselves. Songs against English/British/Monarchic rule in Ireland have been composed and sung for centuries. All the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence did was to give more inspiration to new rebel songs. 

I agree that people and bricklayers should everywhere be equal but not so in the experience of Irish people within the British Empire. The majority of native Irish, in general, were discriminated against by a certain class and type of 'British' subject who was able to exercise a privileged power over others.  I also agree that the Irish and English/British get along fine when we meet but forums and topics like this - see 'Opening Gambits of the Brexit Negotiations', for example -  always expose the hidden prejudice of some who are not shy about using the anonymity thus afforded them to indulge their  baser xenophobic instincts.

I look forward to Al Murray's series on the History Channel. I hope I will have time to catch them all. I'm sure it will be funny but I hope it will be historically accurate and fair, and will have integrity.

I disagree

[hetrodoxly]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In general, she had no choice. And those who might be claimed to have been proud were a small minority who benefited from the enterprise of empire. 

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

Not true, I'm afraid. Pádraig Pearce was an Irishman, born in Ireland and reared by a very disaffected Englishman and an Irish-speaking mother.

Unpopular with some, especially those Dublin women who were living off their husband's British Army pay. I agree the executions turned the silent majority into opposers of the imperial regime and supporters of Irish independence. They came out in force for the 1918 General Election and gave Sinn Féin a landslide victory, sweeping away most of the old Unionist/Loyalist representation. 

History is what history is, or was. You may try to spin it - as indeed, you have tried here - or selectively interpret them but the facts of history taken in their totality cannot be gainsaid and will always speak for themselves. Songs against English/British/Monarchic rule in Ireland have been composed and sung for centuries. All the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence did was to give more inspiration to new rebel songs. 

I agree that people and bricklayers should everywhere be equal but not so in the experience of Irish people within the British Empire. The majority of native Irish, in general, were discriminated against by a certain class and type of 'British' subject who was able to exercise a privileged power over others.  I also agree that the Irish and English/British get along fine when we meet but forums and topics like this - see 'Opening Gambits of the Brexit Negotiations', for example -  always expose the hidden prejudice of some who are not shy about using the anonymity thus afforded them to indulge their  baser xenophobic instincts.

I look forward to Al Murray's series on the History Channel. I hope I will have time to catch them all. I'm sure it will be funny but I hope it will be historically accurate and fair, and will have integrity.

I disagree.

[hetrodoxly]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In general, she had no choice. And those who might be claimed to have been proud were a small minority who benefited from the enterprise of empire. 

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

Not true, I'm afraid. Pádraig Pearce was an Irishman, born in Ireland and reared by a very disaffected Englishman and an Irish-speaking mother.

Unpopular with some, especially those Dublin women who were living off their husband's British Army pay. I agree the executions turned the silent majority into opposers of the imperial regime and supporters of Irish independence. They came out in force for the 1918 General Election and gave Sinn Féin a landslide victory, sweeping away most of the old Unionist/Loyalist representation. 

History is what history is, or was. You may try to spin it - as indeed, you have tried here - or selectively interpret them but the facts of history taken in their totality cannot be gainsaid and will always speak for themselves. Songs against English/British/Monarchic rule in Ireland have been composed and sung for centuries. All the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence did was to give more inspiration to new rebel songs. 

I agree that people and bricklayers should everywhere be equal but not so in the experience of Irish people within the British Empire. The majority of native Irish, in general, were discriminated against by a certain class and type of 'British' subject who was able to exercise a privileged power over others.  I also agree that the Irish and English/British get along fine when we meet but forums and topics like this - see 'Opening Gambits of the Brexit Negotiations', for example -  always expose the hidden prejudice of some who are not shy about using the anonymity thus afforded them to indulge their  baser xenophobic instincts.

I look forward to Al Murray's series on the History Channel. I hope I will have time to catch them all. I'm sure it will be funny but I hope it will be historically accurate and fair, and will have integrity.

See you in a week.

[hetrodoxly]

3 hours ago, danydandan said:

Should have a double like button for this post. I was going respond as you did, especially about Pearse, but didn't want to turn the thread into an historical interpretation discussion.

 

Patrick Henry Pearse's father was a unitarian protestant from Birmingham the pole opposite to Catholicism they don't believe in the trinity' but if you want to claim him as all Irish you must also accept all the others with English fathers born in Ireland as 'Irish'

[danydandan]

51 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Patrick Henry Pearse's father was a unitarian protestant from Birmingham the pole opposite to Catholicism they don't believe in the trinity' but if you want to claim him as all Irish you must also accept all the others with English fathers born in Ireland as 'Irish'

How many generations does it take for one to become a national, or gain a nationality?

What does your Religious ideologies have to do with anything?

 

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

How many generations does it take for one to become a national, or gain a nationality?

What does your Religious ideologies have to do with anything?

 

Well he could have played for England

The reasoning for that last post is when i reply to Ozymandias there was a chance he'd have claimed some of the people i'm going to mention were not Irish though they were born there so i'll give him Pearce but he'll have to accept everyone.

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

What does your Religious ideologies have to do with anything?

Some would say everything.

[hetrodoxly]

9 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Again, your generalisation from the particular is fundamentally flawed. Only a very small minority with a vested interest erected Nelson's Column in Sackville (now O'Connell) Street. The same minority were denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish people their religious, civil and human rights.

The decision to build the monument was taken by Dublin Corporation in the euphoria following Nelson's victory at the Battle of Trafalgar  Francis Johnston (1760 – 14 March 1829) was an Irish architect, best known for building the General Post Office (GPO) on O'Connell Street, Dublin. the main architect Thomas Kirk (1781 – 19 April 1845) was an Irish sculptor, so it was commissioned by 'Irish Men' designed by 'Irish man' and sculptured by an 'Irish man' were the poor of Dublin indifferent to it, probably the same as the poor in London would have been indifferent, but Dublin was a rich city with lot's of rich Irish people, when slavery was abolished you could claim compensation for the loss, the rolls are avalible on line have a look how many people from Dublin claimed.

I'll reply to the other points tomorrow.

Edited September 28, 2018 by hetrodoxly

[danydandan]

They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but the fools, the fools, the fools! - they have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace.

[danydandan]

5 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

The decision to build the monument was taken by Dublin Corporation in the euphoria following Nelson's victory at the Battle of Trafalgar  Francis Johnston (1760 – 14 March 1829) was an Irish architect, best known for building the General Post Office (GPO) on O'Connell Street, Dublin. the main architect Thomas Kirk (1781 – 19 April 1845) was an Irish sculptor, so it was commissioned by 'Irish Men' designed by 'Irish man' and sculptured by an 'Irish man' were the poor of Dublin indifferent to it, probably the same as the poor in London would have been indifferent, but Dublin was a rich city with lot's of rich Irish people, when slavery was abolished you could claim compensation for the loss, the rolls are avalible on line have a look how many people from Dublin claimed.

I'll reply to the other points tomorrow.

Maybe you should read these.

http://www.thejournal.ie/nelsons-pillar-destruction-myths-2647389-Dec2016/

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/nelsons-pillar-head

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/the-rise-and-fall-of-nelson-s-pillar-1.2564604?mode=amp

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/nelson-mccausland-sectarianism-in-the-republic-had-powerful-effect-on-the-attitudes-of-protestants-in-northern-ireland-37266211.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35787116

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/nelsons-pillar/

So as you can see from the three links, the general public didn't give a crap about it, the unionists celebrated and were the only people who cared.

In all fairness though, Nelson probably saved thousands of Irish life's too.

Edited September 29, 2018 by danydandan

[danydandan]

6 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Some would say everything.

They would be wrong. In my opinion.

Edit: Obviously it has, will have and had a massive impact. However very prominent political leaders and Irish revolutionaries were not Catholic.

From Grattan all the way to Wolfe Tone. Robert Emmit in between and many many many more. You'll notice one thing though, these were from Elite families at the time and all college alumni. Most of these went to Trinity College. If the British didn't want nationalism thry should have blown up Trinity College.

Edited September 29, 2018 by danydandan

[danydandan]

6 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Well he could have played for England

The reasoning for that last post is when i reply to Ozymandias there was a chance he'd have claimed some of the people i'm going to mention were not Irish though they were born there so i'll give him Pearce but he'll have to accept everyone.

Born on Irish soil your Irish. That includes the North.

[+Hammerclaw]

29 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Born on Irish soil your Irish. That includes the North.

Not an inconsiderable people, by any stretch. Over forty million or so claim descent from people who hailed from that Island, here in the States, alone. George Washington called my people, known here as the Scotch-Irish, the backbone of the American Revolution. Here, as you say, it's become accepted that all whose forebears departed it shores are "Irish" in that sense. 
 

[GlitterRose]

I found it puzzling, because it seemed like more people mumbled distaste about the French.

I mean, look at how the French and the English were portrayed in European Vacation.

The French waiter says he'll serve them dishwater and they won't know the difference, and the English guy can't apologize enough for them running him over. 

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not an inconsiderable people, by any stretch. Over forty million or so claim descent from people who hailed from that Island, here in the States, alone. George Washington called my people, known here as the Scotch-Irish, the backbone of the American Revolution. Here, as you say, it's become accepted that all whose forebears departed it shores are "Irish" in that sense. 
 

I believe so. We are all made up of people from our past. My mother is a Gallagher and I can trace my heritage back to Niall Noígíallach or Niall of the Nine Hostages. So that side of me is very much Irish. However my Father is from Kerry and certainly has Spainish blood in his family. So I'm sort of Spanish too.

People are who they think they are, if you identify with your heritage's past and believe your more English, American or Polish than Irish it's all good. Same as if your on foreign soil and believe you identify more with your Irish heritage you will always be accepted here.

[+Hammerclaw]

16 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I believe so. We are all made up of people from our past. My mother is a Gallagher and I can trace my heritage back to Niall Noígíallach or Niall of the Nine Hostages. So that side of me is very much Irish. However my Father is from Kerry and certainly has Spainish blood in his family. So I'm sort of Spanish too.

People are who they think they are, if you identify with your heritage's past and believe your more English, American or Polish than Irish it's all good. Same as if your on foreign soil and believe you identify more with your Irish heritage you will always be accepted here.

We are the sum of all who came before us in our lineage. Their blood flows in our veins, their breath in our lungs and all they held dear beats in our hearts.  Eire, England, Wales, Scotland are such places in the hearts of the Diaspora of the Home Islands, wherever in the world they are. They may not realize this, but their lives, their homes the worlds they created or recreated on distant shores are evidence enough of it. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but the fools, the fools, the fools! - they have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace.

If you've read Pearce he states he couldn't find anyone who opposed the British and fenianism was dead when he started his campaign.

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

Maybe you should read these.

http://www.thejournal.ie/nelsons-pillar-destruction-myths-2647389-Dec2016/

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/nelsons-pillar-head

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/the-rise-and-fall-of-nelson-s-pillar-1.2564604?mode=amp

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/nelson-mccausland-sectarianism-in-the-republic-had-powerful-effect-on-the-attitudes-of-protestants-in-northern-ireland-37266211.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35787116

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/nelsons-pillar/

So as you can see from the three links, the general public didn't give a crap about it, the unionists celebrated and were the only people who cared.

In all fairness though, Nelson probably saved thousands of Irish life's too.

It was erected by the Irish and Irish men, London would have had people who didn't care or even oppose the building of there's. James Joyce, W. B. Yeats and Oliver St. John Gogarty defended the Pillar on historical and cultural grounds.

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

They would be wrong. In my opinion.

Edit: Obviously it has, will have and had a massive impact. However very prominent political leaders and Irish revolutionaries were not Catholic.

From Grattan all the way to Wolfe Tone. Robert Emmit in between and many many many more. You'll notice one thing though, these were from Elite families at the time and all college alumni. Most of these went to Trinity College. If the British didn't want nationalism thry should have blown up Trinity College.

The same in England, it's not usually 'the People' who start these things from Guy and his catholic friends trying to blow up the king to the Cambridge five, Russian spy's.

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

Born on Irish soil your Irish. That includes the North.

I agree and as i said you can have that but you must accept everyone regardless of religion and politics.

[hetrodoxly]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not an inconsiderable people, by any stretch. Over forty million or so claim descent from people who hailed from that Island, here in the States, alone. George Washington called my people, known here as the Scotch-Irish, the backbone of the American Revolution. Here, as you say, it's become accepted that all whose forebears departed it shores are "Irish" in that sense. 
 

The lowland Scots (Anglo Saxons) and English protestants who settled the Appalachians are it's backbone, according to my local weekly rag 'the Black country Bugle' says the Suttons & Taylors typical feuding hillbillys came from Lye a small town in the Black Country.

[hetrodoxly]

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

Niall of the Nine Hostages

Did he exist? i thought the DNA thing was found to be wrong? though i know it makes no difference it's 'Irish' what has the truth got to do with it

[danydandan]

24 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Did he exist? i thought the DNA thing was found to be wrong? though i know it makes no difference it's 'Irish' what has the truth got to do with it

No it's right. Whether he existed or not is up for debate like most individuals who were supposed to have lived back then. But DNA testing, in particular persons from Donegal, seems to support and suject the Gallagher's and other Donegal surnames might have common ancestry.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/the-genetic-imprint-of-niall-of-the-nine-hostages-1.1771373?mode=amp

But thats an Irish paper, detailing Irish Scientific research from an Irish college so your probably going to dismiss it.