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trevor borocz johnson

artificial gravity caused by movement

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trevor borocz johnson

Here's an idea. If maybe a magnet is a fan for empty space where all the electrons in the magnet circle in the same direction pushing and pulling space to create a north and south end, that maybe artificial gravity on a moving spaceship is created from the same effect. If you imagine a box with a permeable divider in the middle, and you held this box out the window of a moving car, any object in the front of the box would be pressed against the divider, and any object in the back of the box would fly out. But in space there is no wind and this effect would still happen. So could it be that space passing through the electron shells of the object moving in the same direction creates artificial magnetism in a way?

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Piney

No.

Gravity is created by a object's mass. It's literally a "dent" in spacetime. 

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trevor borocz johnson

Thanks. What I think I mean is if there is some sort of electro-magnetic force inherent in space that makes two north ends of a magnet repel, then maybe this same force can 'press' objects together that are moving. Space being stationary, would pass by the electron shells of the atoms as the object moves in one direction. This would be the sort of 'wind' from the example in the OP. Something would experience artificial gravity on the surface of the object because stationary space passing by would press the electron shells of that something into the object.

Edited by trevor borocz johnson

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, Piney said:

Gravity is created by a object's mass. It's literally a "dent" in spacetime. 

Also Einstein showed that the effect of gravity can  be caused by acceleration in a frame of reference.   Check it out by riding an elevator up and down.  Acceleration upwards presses you against the floor just like gravity.  Same on the way down, you seem to weigh less when you accelerate in the other direction.  Part of Special Relativity.

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trevor borocz johnson

The stationary air creating the wind outside the moving car in the OP would eventually slow the car down if you stopped accelerating, this is not true for a spaceship moving through space as objects continue through space  unless acted upon by an outside force. If you weighed 1 and were on a meteor weighing 10 moving at 100 and you jumped up you and the meteor would move apart and you would be traveling faster then the meteor. So there is no artificial gravity caused by movement. If gravity is caused by density in space, there is no reason to compare it to a moving spaceship. So the analogy of light entering a window and 'bending' to an observer on the spaceship being like a gravity field bending passing light doesn't mean you create artificial gravity aboard the spaceship, hence all the theories about why momentum and gravity are the same are null.

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trevor borocz johnson
1 hour ago, trevor borocz johnson said:

The stationary air creating the wind outside the moving car in the OP would eventually slow the car down if you stopped accelerating, this is not true for a spaceship moving through space as objects continue through space  unless acted upon by an outside force. If you weighed 1 and were on a meteor weighing 10 moving at 100 and you jumped up you and the meteor would move apart and you would be traveling faster then the meteor. So there is no artificial gravity caused by movement. If gravity is caused by density in space, there is no reason to compare it to a moving spaceship. So the analogy of light entering a window and 'bending' to an observer on the spaceship being like a gravity field bending passing light doesn't mean you create artificial gravity aboard the spaceship, hence all the theories about why momentum and gravity are the same are null.

correction moving at a constant velocity doesn't create artificial gravity nor bend light. So artificial gravity caused by acceleration wouldn't be dependent on how fast space is moving past you, just that you are accelerating. How much the light bends with your artificial gravity wouldn't be consistent with an equivalent gravity field though.

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trevor borocz johnson

when an object oscilates or vibrates like in a gyroscope, spinning weight around in the same spot of space, it converts the energy of the spinning into a field of space that is under stress of being pulled in. This energy of being pulled on is the same energy it converts if you were on top an rocket engine burning consistently and experience artificial gravity, the energy of space being able to 'bend' light like a gravity field would increase as space travelled past you faster and faster because no resistance is slowing you down. This is the concept of the gyroscope speaker which would release vibrations through the field created by weight spinning  into your balance system and you would hear them differently then sound.

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danydandan
Posted (edited)

Ar you replying to yourself or do you want people to participate?

Edited by danydandan
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RoofGardener
On 9/24/2018 at 11:01 PM, trevor borocz johnson said:

Here's an idea. If maybe a magnet is a fan for empty space where all the electrons in the magnet circle in the same direction ....

If they're going in a circle, then they're not going in the same direction ! :) 

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RabidMongoose
On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 11:01 PM, trevor borocz johnson said:

Here's an idea. If maybe a magnet is a fan for empty space where all the electrons in the magnet circle in the same direction pushing and pulling space to create a north and south end, that maybe artificial gravity on a moving spaceship is created from the same effect. If you imagine a box with a permeable divider in the middle, and you held this box out the window of a moving car, any object in the front of the box would be pressed against the divider, and any object in the back of the box would fly out. But in space there is no wind and this effect would still happen. So could it be that space passing through the electron shells of the object moving in the same direction creates artificial magnetism in a way?

In particle physics it has long been known that electrons and photons both have mass (although a photon only has its while stationary). So you could make a magnetic fan create a spinning gravity field but not propel a spacecraft through space. It would also be a very weak gravity field unless you use electromagnets charged up to a trillion volts.

On a related topic (which you might be unaware of) scientists confirmed the discovery of anti-gravity about three months back. They found sound waves bombarding objects create areas of negative mass (an area with less mass than absolutely no mass) which if located right makes the relevant object levitate.

So you have the interesting proposition of a spacecraft with its front end charged up to a trillion, trillion, trillion, volts and some powerful speaks inside a sound chamber at the back. Warp drive.

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trevor borocz johnson
7 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

So you could make a magnetic fan create a spinning gravity field but not propel a spacecraft through space

I'm saying the magnet is a fan for empty space. polar switches occur becuase the orbits of the electrons in the magnet don't have shape like fan blades and the side that is the push and pull can change abruptly. This would be bad for the earth because we would lose historically somehow.

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sepulchrave

Usually I agree with you, RabidMongoose, but I have some doubts about what you have posted here.

18 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

In particle physics it has long been known that electrons and photons both have mass (although a photon only has its while stationary). So you could make a magnetic fan create a spinning gravity field but not propel a spacecraft through space. It would also be a very weak gravity field unless you use electromagnets charged up to a trillion volts.

What is a stationary photon? Are you talking about geons? I do not think a photon can be stationary.

18 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

On a related topic (which you might be unaware of) scientists confirmed the discovery of anti-gravity about three months back. They found sound waves bombarding objects create areas of negative mass (an area with less mass than absolutely no mass) which if located right makes the relevant object levitate.

Can you provide a reference for this? I read about using sound to make negative effective mass a few months ago, but that is quite different from anti-gravity.

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RabidMongoose
5 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

Usually I agree with you, RabidMongoose, but I have some doubts about what you have posted here.

What is a stationary photon? Are you talking about geons? I do not think a photon can be stationary.

Can you provide a reference for this? I read about using sound to make negative effective mass a few months ago, but that is quite different from anti-gravity.

What the following link says is that current experiments designed to detect the mass of moving photons have failed to detect any. But, there are experiments with stationary photons in superconductors too which do detect them having mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Experimental_checks_on_photon_mass. So the mechanism underlying how the photons get their mass isn't known, but suspected as an interaction with the Higgs Boson when stationary.

If you remember the sound wave articles then re-read them because they were quite assertive that with the right experimental setups they were creating negative mass and it was the area of negative mass causing the objects to rise and levitate.

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sepulchrave
9 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

What the following link says is that current experiments designed to detect the mass of moving photons have failed to detect any. But, there are experiments with stationary photons in superconductors too which do detect them having mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Experimental_checks_on_photon_mass. So the mechanism underlying how the photons get their mass isn't known, but suspected as an interaction with the Higgs Boson when stationary.

The photon in superconductors experiment detected photons to have a non-zero effective rest mass. Emphasis on the word "effective".

9 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

If you remember the sound wave articles then re-read them because they were quite assertive that with the right experimental setups they were creating negative mass and it was the area of negative mass causing the objects to rise and levitate.

Is it related to this research? This also finds a negative effective mass. Emphasis on the word "effective".

A cork submerged in water has a negative effective mass: In a gravity field the cork will "levitate" upwards (to the top of the water). Of course the actual mass of the cork isn't negative.

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RabidMongoose
3 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

The photon in superconductors experiment detected photons to have a non-zero effective rest mass. Emphasis on the word "effective".

Is it related to this research? This also finds a negative effective mass. Emphasis on the word "effective".

A cork submerged in water has a negative effective mass: In a gravity field the cork will "levitate" upwards (to the top of the water). Of course the actual mass of the cork isn't negative.

Why are you emphasising the word effective?

It the photon has mass when stationary (for whatever reason) and sound waves produce areas of negative mass (for whatever reason) then both are still mass and negative mass. Both could lead to exotic forms of propulsion (and in the case of soundwaves no necessarily requiring an atmosphere outside the spacecraft but one inside it).

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sepulchrave
On 2018-10-08 at 8:23 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Why are you emphasising the word effective?

It the photon has mass when stationary (for whatever reason) and sound waves produce areas of negative mass (for whatever reason) then both are still mass and negative mass. Both could lead to exotic forms of propulsion (and in the case of soundwaves no necessarily requiring an atmosphere outside the spacecraft but one inside it).

Because the word effective is very important in this context.

As I mentioned, a cork has negative effective mass in water. You can use a cork to float in water. You cannot use a cork for an antigravity engine in space - cork does not actually have a negative mass, outside of a medium that is more dense than cork it will fall down in a gravity field like normal.

Neither stationary photons nor photons can lead to exotic forms of transportation outside the media where they exist. You can fill a spacecraft with ``negative effective mass phonons'' (technical difficulties with freezing phonons not withstanding), but that spacecraft will always have a positive mass. In fact, because phonons carry energy, the net mass of the spacecraft will be greater than if it was not filled with these phonons (but by a negligible amount).

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