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Possible evidence of the Exodus found in Jordan

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Golden Duck
6 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

Fine, I'll be done talking to you but you don't seem to understand they have the same name. It's not like we're writing it out in Heiroglyphs here.

Rudyard Kipling wrote Kim, but the ruling dynasty in North Korea isn't Indian.

The Spanish word for black is niger; but the Niger River in Africa isn't black.

Stan Laurel didn't come from Afghanistan.

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Harte
2 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

Moses and Moshe have literally the same spelling in Hebrew and mean exactly the same thing. What about them both being around the 14th century BC?

But Thutmose isn't a Hebrew name. It's Egyptian.

It means "Thoth is Born."

Hebrews worshiped Thoth?

Harte

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Swede
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

That is the time you get by counting backwards with the Geneaologies recorded throuought the Bible.

If you would be relying on such dated "calibrations" as Ussher, you will rapidly find that such information is demonstrably incorrect. Emphatically incorrect. You may wish to expand the horizons of your understandings.

.Also, you may wish to provide the sources of your perspective. Such references may be of value in regards to enhancing said understandings.

Edit: Typo.

Edited by Swede
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Kenemet
2 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

Moses and Moshe have literally the same spelling in Hebrew and mean exactly the same thing. What about them both being around the 14th century BC?

Polish and polish have the same spelling in English; by your rule, Poles invented polish.  And a bass fish is also a bass instrument.  And sow pigs sow seeds.  And when you have wound your garden hose into a coil, you've wounded it and it needs to be bandaged.

...etc.

BTW, "Moses" and "Ra-messes" are in two different languages and aren't pronounced the same.  They're certainly not spelled the same.

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khazarkhum
7 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Polish and polish have the same spelling in English; by your rule, Poles invented polish.  And a bass fish is also a bass instrument.  And sow pigs sow seeds.  And when you have wound your garden hose into a coil, you've wounded it and it needs to be bandaged.

...etc.

BTW, "Moses" and "Ra-messes" are in two different languages and aren't pronounced the same.  They're certainly not spelled the same.

What is the Egyptian version of 'Moses'?

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Kenemet
55 minutes ago, khazarkhum said:

What is the Egyptian version of 'Moses'?

m-s-s.  Which could be mosos, mesos, muses, mases, masas, masus, etc, etc.

Two words sounding alike in different languages is pretty meaningless... like 'night' and 'knacht' (German) or 'say' and 'se' (Spanish) or... any of these and more: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-homophones-that-have-different-meanings-in-different-languages

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jaylemurph
3 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet

From 1 Kings chapter 6 it gives the time from the building of the first temple to the time of Exodus. 

Again with the just ignoring previous content! Why post if you have no intention of reading other people’s post?

The Bible is about as useful for historical purposes as a phone book. Is there any reason to cite it (as a secondary source to itself, no less!) other than it agrees with the date you’ve decided to believe?

—Jaylemurph 

 

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Piney
3 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet

From 1 Kings chapter 6 it gives the time from the building of the first temple to the time of Exodus. 

Did you actually read this whole link? :rolleyes:

 

Quote

Opposing this is the theory of the German scholar Martin Noth, who, while granting that Moses may have had something to do with the preparations for the conquest of Canaan, was very skeptical of the roles attributed to him by tradition. Although recognizing a historical core beneath the Exodus and Sinai traditions, Noth believed that two different groups experienced these events and transmitted the stories independently of each other. He contended that the biblical story tracing the Hebrews from Egypt to Canaan resulted from an editor’s weaving separate themes and traditions around a main character Moses, actually an obscure person from Moab.

This article, following the lead of the biblical archaeologist and historian W.F. Albright, presents a point of view that falls somewhere between these two extremes. While the essence of the biblical story (narrated between Exodus 1:8 and Deuteronomy 34:12) is accepted, it is recognized that, during the centuries of oral and written transmission, the account acquired layers of accretions. The reconstruction of the documentary sources of the Pentateuch by literary critics is considered valid, but the sources are viewed as varying versions of one series of events (seebiblical literature: The Torah [Law, Pentateuch, or Five Books of Moses]). Other critical methods (studying the biblical text from the standpoint of literary form, oral tradition, style, redaction, and archaeology) are equally valid. The most accurate answer to a critical problem is therefore likely to come from the convergence of various lines of evidence. The aid of critical scholarship notwithstanding, the sources are so sketchy that the man Moses can be portrayed only in broad outline.

 

 

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Pettytalk
15 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

The evidence is compelling otherwise.

Opus Magnus, you must realize that you are compelling the grandest minds here to educate you? It is a sign of benevolence, otherwise they would just leave you in the darkness of ignorance. It is futile for you to argue with them from the standpoint of symbology, as such is the Bible, mostly. They have old and consistent historical facts on their side, which will prove you wrong every time.If you use your tool, the Bible, as a literal historical phone book.. If you persist with it, then, you better call upon God to come to your aid, otherwise you haven't a chance against the Goliaths that are challenging you.....King David got lucky against one giant, but a whole army of mental giants is beyond luck....you need a miracle.

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Pettytalk
5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

m-s-s.  Which could be mosos, mesos, muses, mases, masas, masus, etc, etc.

Two words sounding alike in different languages is pretty meaningless... like 'night' and 'knacht' (German) or 'say' and 'se' (Spanish) or... any of these and more: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-homophones-that-have-different-meanings-in-different-languages

There is always the other side of the coin, where the words may actually have the same meaning in two or more different languages, or nearly different languages..

Pizza is basically the same in many different languages; flour, yeast, salt, water, cheese, tomato sauce,

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Sir Wearer of Hats
8 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

That is the time you get by counting backwards with the Geneaologies recorded throuought the Bible.

Quite a few European royal genealogies lead all the way back to the Lord God Almighty, but I do struggle to believe that Betty is related to God.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

There is always the other side of the coin, where the words may actually have the same meaning in two or more different languages, or nearly different languages..

Pizza is basically the same in many different languages; flour, yeast, salt, water, cheese, tomato sauce,

Jesus Wept....

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Pettytalk
35 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Jesus Wept....

Tears of laughter?

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The Wistman
13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

m-s-s.  Which could be mosos, mesos, muses, mases, masas, masus, etc, etc.

Two words sounding alike in different languages is pretty meaningless... like 'night' and 'knacht' (German) or 'say' and 'se' (Spanish) or... any of these and more: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-homophones-that-have-different-meanings-in-different-languages

My question was: Is there any evidence of m-s-s or m-s used as a common or royal name in ancient Egypt, standing alone?  That is, without the Ra or Amen or Thoth components.  Does the name m-s-s make any sense as a personal name in ancient Egypt, since it has no subject/God component to modify?  If yes, does it occur in the record within the target era we're considering as applicable to the Exodus?

I've found this bit but would like to hear the committee's judgment (mine's not so informed):

Quote

Here is where Egypt comes into the picture. Open the pages of almost any recent Bible dictionary, Exodus commentary, or biblical reference work and you will likely find the name Moses linked to the Egyptian verb ms/msi (“to give birth”) or the related noun ms (“child,” “son”),various forms of which occur in Egyptian royal and non-royal names. The verb ms is incorporated into the royal birth names of New Kingdom pharaohs Ahmose (“the moon god is born”) and Thutmose (“Thoth is born”) as the suffix -mose. In the Greek forms of the names, the verb ms becomes -mosis: Amosis and Thutmosis. The name Ramesses follows a similar pattern: Re-mes-su  (“Re is the one who bore him”). The verb is also found in non-royal personal names such as Ptahmose (“Ptah is born”) and Ramose (“Re is born”).  All of the above names feature what scholars call a divine or theophoric element, but the Hebrew name Moses stands alone in the biblical text; it has no god’s name attached to it. Scholars have debated whether it may have once included a god’s name that was later dropped.

To support the view that Moses’ name always stood alone, while still retaining its Egyptian roots, scholars have cited examples of the personal name Mose/Mes in ancient Egypt. The name can be found in New Kingdom letters and legal documents, with one high-profile case involving land inheritance brought by a plaintiff named Mose. Among the tombs at Memphis one finds a chapel of Mose (mesy). It is likely also that the Egyptian name Mesy was an abbreviated reference to the late 19th-dynasty usurper to the throne, Amenmesse (“Amun is the one who bore him”), whose tumultuous reign lasted only a few short years.  Although there are many uncertainties regarding events surrounding this pharaoh, Egyptologist Rolf Krauss has argued that the biblical writer intentionally modeled the biography of Moses on the life of Amenmesse.

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/was-moses-name-egyptian

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The Wistman

Sorry, the above is misstated, should start:  "Following Kenemet's post, my question was..."  I hadn't posted the question previously, as it seems to imply.  Caught it too late to edit.  My bad. :rofl:

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Kenemet
2 hours ago, The Wistman said:

My question was: Is there any evidence of m-s-s or m-s used as a common or royal name in ancient Egypt, standing alone?  That is, without the Ra or Amen or Thoth components.  Does the name m-s-s make any sense as a personal name in ancient Egypt, since it has no subject/God component to modify?  If yes, does it occur in the record within the target era we're considering as applicable to the Exodus?

I've found this bit but would like to hear the committee's judgment (mine's not so informed):

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/was-moses-name-egyptian

I have not encountered it as a personal name or as a nickname in ancient Egypt.  The article you linked indicates that there's some support for it and I'd certainly accept that (though "Mesy" and "Moses" aren't that similar in my view). 

But given the really BAD transliteration (if that's what it is) of Egyptian names in that story, it's doubtful that Moses was an Egyptian name heard in context of that story.  And it doesn't make any sense for a people to give a baby the name of an enemy of their people; a name with unpleasant or even "bad luck" associations (like calling a baby Hitler or Stalin in modern times.)

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Kenemet
10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

There is always the other side of the coin, where the words may actually have the same meaning in two or more different languages, or nearly different languages..

Pizza is basically the same in many different languages; flour, yeast, salt, water, cheese, tomato sauce,

This is true, but they'll be derived from a single source word (we call those "loan words.")  Loan words occur when there's considerable interaction between two cultures and names loaned from one culture to the other occurs when there's a lot of intermarrying.

In this case, there's not a lot of that kind of interaction with the Hebrews until after 600 BC.  Egypt does conquer that area during the time of Thutmose iii and there had been regular trade with the region (for valuable wood) since the Old Kingdom but the area retains its own cultural identity and Egypt doesn't remain as a strong presence there as compared to Babylon, Syria, etc.  

And that's another factor against -- Egypt never holds onto the area for very long and they're always seen as unwelcome masters and conquerors.

106602-004-8280C828.jpg

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atalante
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, The Wistman said:

My question was: Is there any evidence of m-s-s or m-s used as a common or royal name in ancient Egypt, standing alone?  That is, without the Ra or Amen or Thoth components.  Does the name m-s-s make any sense as a personal name in ancient Egypt, since it has no subject/God component to modify?  If yes, does it occur in the record within the target era we're considering as applicable to the Exodus?

I've found this bit but would like to hear the committee's judgment (mine's not so informed):

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/was-moses-name-egyptian

Both Arabic and Hebrew languages offer a generic root for naming a legendary "departure-man".  i.e. the Hebrew root "mush" means - to go on; to depart. 

And conforming more closely to the behavior of a group of people during Exodus, the Arabic word musha (from the same semitic root as Hebrew mush) means pedestrian, or infantry, or ground forces.  e.g   https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/arabic-word-for-fa95ea715aa6ca95796b94e992ab6242d9751b5b.html 

From this standpoint (Semitic origin for the name Moses), it is unlikely that a royal Egyptian name was the origin for the biblical legendary person called Moses.  

But you might want to look into whether the biblical name Aaron was derived from Egyptian vocabulary.  

 

 

 

Edited by atalante

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Pettytalk
52 minutes ago, atalante said:

Both Arabic and Hebrew languages offer a generic root for naming a legendary "departure-man".  i.e. the Hebrew root "mush" means - to go on; to depart. 

And conforming more closely to the behavior of a group of people during Exodus, the Arabic word musha (from the same semitic root as Hebrew mush) means pedestrian, or infantry, or ground forces.  e.g   https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/arabic-word-for-fa95ea715aa6ca95796b94e992ab6242d9751b5b.html 

From this standpoint (Semitic origin for the name Moses), it is unlikely that a royal Egyptian name was the origin for the biblical legendary person called Moses.  

But you might want to look into whether the biblical name Aaron was derived from Egyptian vocabulary.  

 

 

 

I thought "mush" was an Eskimese word, which was understood by huskies to mean the same as to the Hebrews. to go.

 

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Piney
2 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

 Eskimese 

:blink:

:rolleyes:   

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Jodie.Lynne
7 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Does the name m-s-s make any sense as a personal name in ancient Egypt,

I'm not an Egyptologist, but I would tend to think not.

I mean, if the translation of m-s-s is "is born", doesn't that sound like a ridiculous name for a person?

Kind of like being named "male" or 'female', or 'person'.

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Pettytalk
5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I have not encountered it as a personal name or as a nickname in ancient Egypt.  The article you linked indicates that there's some support for it and I'd certainly accept that (though "Mesy" and "Moses" aren't that similar in my view). 

But given the really BAD transliteration (if that's what it is) of Egyptian names in that story, it's doubtful that Moses was an Egyptian name heard in context of that story.  And it doesn't make any sense for a people to give a baby the name of an enemy of their people; a name with unpleasant or even "bad luck" associations (like calling a baby Hitler or Stalin in modern times.)

According to my source, the name Moses means "I drew you out of the waters"

But I would also like to go on record, that we are spitting hairs, as the say, about words. Whereas Moses split the Red Sea. Or rather, parted, for those that split hairs.

The fact is that, also according to my same source, that the name of Moses would have become famous and everlasting. And no one can argue that it is, overwhelmingly, more popular and better know the world over than any other Egyptian name.

.

 

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Pettytalk
22 minutes ago, Piney said:

:blink:

:rolleyes:   

 

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Piney
12 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

According to my source, the name Moses means "I drew you out of the waters"

*sigh*

Your source is wrong. They would be laughed at by any Rabbi. 

Nice stereotypical video that is culturally wrong..... 

..........and you apparently didn't watch the video on the origins of "mush" either........

:rolleyes:

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