California gun sales ban for people under 21

[psyche101]

On 10/26/2018 at 1:11 AM, OverSword said:

Their influence over the government is rivaled only by the firearms industry. 

Why is it OK for the NRA but a bad thing when Big Pharma does it? 

[lost_shaman]

3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Why is it OK for the NRA but a bad thing when Big Pharma does it? 

You do understand that the NRA is an association of American citizens, and the Big Pharma is not. Big Pharma is a broad brush of large Companies. There is a big Apples to Oranges difference.

[+OverSword]

8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Why is it OK for the NRA but a bad thing when Big Pharma does it? 

Did I say NRA? I’m quite sure the NRA’s influence isn’t comparable to big pharma or to military arms manufacturers, which is the arms industry I was referring to.

[psyche101]

On 10/26/2018 at 1:21 AM, OverSword said:

That would make sense if it were the same percentages getting them in all populations but the fact is the US is by far the most medicated country on the planet.  So if you have a higher total number of people taking these drugs and a very small percentage of them has these insane behavioral side effects, do the math.   If you have a better explanation that makes more sense as to why people for the most part under 30 have started performing mass shootings who are mainly on these drugs I'd love to hear it.  It's not like we didn't have high capacity high caliber semi automatic weapons until the 90's, we've had them for decades.  Hell we used to have Thompson sub machine guns with with hundred round clips and BAR's with 9 foot long belts.  They outlawed those because the 1920's gangsters had the police outgunned.

From what I can tell the shootings started increasing the 70s. And weapons have improved. The events are deadlier. The toll was rising in all countries including my own until we introduced gun regulation. The US does top the world in anti depressant use, but not by a lot with Iceland coming in right behind you and us down under following them, but proportionally we aren't seeing the mass shootings. 

[psyche101]

22 hours ago, Gunn said:

On the violent video games I would agree they may have some influence. But I think it would more likely influence a mind who's already mentally unstable, who may not be able to distinguish reality from fantasy. Violent and horror movies as well. Maybe even worse for a mentally ill person who is on drugs, while playing those games or watching those movies.

 

 

Would that not apply to any person who has that mindset? One theory is that anti depressants offer the peace of mind as we as motivation and are able to plan out a mass killing because if these factors, but the damaged mind was already there. 

[psyche101]

13 hours ago, OverSword said:

Did I say NRA? I’m quite sure the NRA’s influence isn’t comparable to big pharma or to military arms manufacturers, which is the arms industry I was referring to.

The NRA annual worth at 337 million just in 2015 is a major influencing factor I would think. Goodness know what they took last year. 

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

The NRA annual worth at 337 million just in 2015 is a major influencing factor I would think. Goodness know what they took last year. 

$337million. Okay. How much do you think Boeing is getting for developing the next generation military drone? How much do you think a ton of other manufacturers and developers get paid just to design my military prototypes every year? Sad as it is $337 million is a pittance. My state pays that much just fixing potholes I bet.

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Would that not apply to any person who has that mindset? One theory is that anti depressants offer the peace of mind as we as motivation and are able to plan out a mass killing because if these factors, but the damaged mind was already there. 

Interesting theory. That’s just weird enough to make sense.

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

From what I can tell the shootings started increasing the 70s. And weapons have improved. The events are deadlier. The toll was rising in all countries including my own until we introduced gun regulation. The US does top the world in anti depressant use, but not by a lot with Iceland coming in right behind you and us down under following them, but proportionally we aren't seeing the mass shootings. 

Maybe it’s as simple as America is just that much more violent of a culture. 

I have an Australian coworker that I’ve known for years one day I pulled out my knife to open a box of paper for the copy machine and she nearly panicked. She seemed pretty well brainwashed. I tried to get her to go to an indoor target range with my Dad and I and she’s afraid we might accidentally shoot her. I’ve never met anyone that didn’t have fun at a range once they gave it a try but there was no way we could have convinced her.

Edited October 30, 2018 by OverSword

[psyche101]

21 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

You do understand that the NRA is an association of American citizens, and the Big Pharma is not. Big Pharma is a broad brush of large Companies. There is a big Apples to Oranges difference.

When it comes to corruption I don't think the players really matter. Its more about who is affected. 

[lost_shaman]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

When it comes to corruption I don't think the players really matter. Its more about who is affected. 

There is no corruption with the NRA. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

$337million. Okay. How much do you think Boeing is getting for developing the next generation military drone? How much do you think a ton of other manufacturers and developers get paid just to design my military prototypes every year? Sad as it is $337 million is a pittance. My state pays that much just fixing potholes I bet.

You honestly don't think 337 million a year is something worth protecting with whatever it takes? 

Graft and corruption has steam rolled people for much less. I think the people on the receiving end of the 337 mil a year don't see it as a pittance. It's not a competition of who is the most devious in business, that sort of money corrupts 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Maybe it’s as simple as America is just that much more violent of a culture. 

I have an Australian coworker that I’ve known for years one day I pulled out my knife to open a box of paper for the copy machine and she nearly panicked. She seemed pretty well brainwashed. I tried to get her to go to an indoor target range with my Dad and I and she’s afraid we might accidentally shoot her. I’ve never met anyone that didn’t have fun at a range once they gave it a try but there was no way we could have convinced her.

We still have guns and shooting ranges. It's just the people who own them are on a national register and have shown responsibility and genuine need for a weapon. Im not sure why she panicked over a pocket knife unless she had never seen a tradie over here. Most tradesmen carry a knife for opening stuff up. 

Its not brainwashing, the community got behind regulation. The vast majority wanted it. We see you guys in the same light, but opposite direction. Brainwashed into thinking you need something that you don't. 

We are just more community orientated. Almost every gun supporter I have spoken to in these boards seems to fear losing their home weapon more than the things they claim to need it for. We see the community as a precious thing that should be kept from harm, whereas you guys are more do it yourselfers. and get the job done yourself. I don't know if your culture promotes that from your roots, or if your governments are all hopeless and have been unable to handle the task of properly caring for the communities that vote them in, or if its a vested monetary interested as proposed with the NRA. But you guys decide to handle things that we would find best left to a professional. A plumber for pipes, an electrician for wires, a mechanic for cars, a cop for law and order. It's just how we roll. And for the most part  it seems to work pretty good. 

The average Aussie is not scared of guns, we are just very responsible. It's a myth gun nuts use to validate themselves and make anyone opposing look bad. My son wanted to know what the fuss was about as one if his friends in high school is a registered owner (keeps his, weapon at a gun club not at home) so I took my some to a small range and let him try a. 22 on a target. He was done after that and hasn't asked to try it again. He had fun and said so, but we keep busy and it hasn't crossed his mind again. We aren't scared of them, we don't like the impact of them in our community. I grew up before regulation and can remember racks of guns in KMart. It was a part of life that went away overnight, and quite honestly its not been missed one bit 

[lost_shaman]

psyche, 

Look at your demographics compared to the U.S.! More than half of your continent's entire population lives in just 4 large Cities. Large Cities all over the world tend to be liberal controlled and left leaning and support weird ideologies that people who live in more rural places just find strange. I live in Texas and we have a larger population just in my State than you have in your entire Continent!  Yet Texas is only 1/11th the size of Australia and Texas is considered mostly rural compared to other U.S. States. If I drive into one the larger Cities in Texas there the people are mostly left leaning, while most of the rest of the State is Right leaning. Considering more than half your entire population lives in only 4 large Cities it doesn't surprise me at all that your Country is liberal and left leaning compared to the U.S.. We just see the World around us in a different light than you do. We have more people and more crime and you just can not count on the police to show up in time to save you from crime. Your Country just has too small of a population and is City centric  to understand us, that seems pretty obvious here in this thread.

Edited October 30, 2018 by lost_shaman

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 hours ago, OverSword said:

I have an Australian coworker that I’ve known for years one day I pulled out my knife to open a box of paper for the copy machine and she nearly panicked. 

Mate, that’s just weird. I have a colleague who eats an apple with a knife during staff meetings and uses the knife as a pointer. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

psyche, 

Look at your demographics compared to the U.S.! More than half of your continent's entire population lives in just 4 large Cities. Large Cities all over the world tend to be liberal controlled and left leaning and support weird ideologies that people who live in more rural places just find strange. I live in Texas and we have a larger population just in my State than you have in your entire Continent!  Yet Texas is only 1/11th the size of Australia and Texas is considered mostly rural compared to other U.S. States. If I drive into one the larger Cities in Texas there the people are mostly left leaning, while most of the rest of the State is Right leaning. Considering more than half your entire population lives in only 4 large Cities it doesn't surprise me at all that your Country is liberal and left leaning compared to the U.S.. We just see the World around us in a different light than you do. We have more people and more crime and you just can not count on the police to show up in time to save you from crime. Your Country just has too small of a population and is City centric  to understand us, that seems pretty obvious here in this thread.

You have more people but 63% of your people live on 3.5% of your land. 

How is that not more densely populated?

We didn't bring in regulation because we were leaning that way. We were getting a regular rate of shootings. The people found this unacceptable. Port Arthur was the straw. It was introduced quite suddenly. When John Howard said he had a plan to end the killing we embraced it and we have been reaping the results ever since. 

[lost_shaman]

44 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You have more people but 63% of your people live on 3.5% of your land. 

How is that not more densely populated?

And the same numbers for Australia are probably well over 50% of your people living on 0.5% of your land. Right?

Edited October 30, 2018 by lost_shaman

[lost_shaman]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

We didn't bring in regulation because we were leaning that way. We were getting a regular rate of shootings. The people found this unacceptable. Port Arthur was the straw. It was introduced quite suddenly. When John Howard said he had a plan to end the killing we embraced it and we have been reaping the results ever since. 

Yes you were and did!  And in the U.S. we simply don't allow a literal handful of "crazy" people (and Politicians) to dictate what Right's the rest of us enjoy. That being the right to bear arms and defend ourselves from a "literal handful of "crazy" people".

Edited October 30, 2018 by lost_shaman

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Yes you were and did! 

Can you show me some evidence of your claim? That's not how I remember it and I live here. I saw guns for sale in KMart for goodness sakes and was no stranger to them when I grew up on the farm. We had small groups protest the regulations who eventually admitted it was better for all than ever expected by them. We made our own gun traps out of rabbit traps and pipe. It was just a part of life. Still is where I grew up. 

6 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

 And in the U.S. we simply don't allow a literal handful of "crazy" people (and Politicians) to dictate what Right's the rest of us enjoy.

Politicians don't dictate here, we truly are a free country. Crazy people will kill people if they have easy access to weapons. That's a no brainer and it happens alot. It's weather the community as a whole deems something like personal use to be of more value than the safety of the people. It's not hard to work out that if you have effective gun control the people most affected are criminals and crazy people, not responsible people. Your culture deems the rights of the individual to be more important than the community and that's clear the way your constitution is waved around. We have one. I don't know what's in it. Don't care. Unless I see a need for it I don't have to know it. That's where I see the greatest difference between our culture and yours. Like I said, maybe that's because you guys tend to be 'do it yourselfers' which might be because Americans used their own resources to build a nation. No small achievement so it might have an effect. I don't know but I do know we see individual rights and the community in quite different ways. 

6 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

That being the right to bear arms and defend ourselves from a "literal handful of "crazy" people".

I don't see how it's not more logical to just make it near impossible for crazy people and criminals to get guns in the first place and ensure that the guns that do exist in society are in the most demonstratably responsible hands. 

[lost_shaman]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I don't see how it's not more logical to just make it near impossible for crazy people and criminals to get guns in the first place and ensure that the guns that do exist in society are in the most demonstratably responsible hands. 

Are you deaf and blind? We've told you a dozen times on this thread that anyone buying a gun "legally" in the U.S. must go through an FBI background check and a waiting period. We do have regulations that you are simply ignoring. 

[psyche101]

Just now, lost_shaman said:

Are you deaf and blind?

Well I can't hear you but I'm answering your posts so obviously I'm reading. 

You might have to speak up though. I'm on the other side of the world. 

Just now, lost_shaman said:

We've told you a dozen times on this thread that anyone buying a gun "legally" in the U.S. must go through an FBI background check and a waiting period. We do have regulations that you are simply ignoring. 

That's not the guns committing the crimes though is it. Stolen and second hand guns, some that are weapons for use by groups of people sharing which are not on any register. 

Its the prevalence of guns that sets this vicious circle in place, regulations nationwide on all aspects is the only way a solution can work. 

Someone gets a gun stolen and goes sweet, insurance claim I get a new badder boy. And that's another gun in circulation. Regulation as we introduced it removes the prevalence on weapons having a notable effect on that market. And that's why a second hand old pistol here will set you back around 15 grand on the black market, yet if what I have read is right, that same item is about 250 dollars on the US black market. How can that not be having a bad knock on effect? 

[lost_shaman]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

That's not the guns committing the crimes though is it.

No it is not. Guns don't kill people! People kill People. That's the simple truth you are ignoring psyche! I love you like a brother even though I've never met you and you are on the other side of this little Planet, but on this issue I just can not agree with you and I feel like you don't understand the way American's feel or the need we actually have to protect ourselves and this is a Right our Constitution grants us that can not be taken away without some serious political action that just is not going to happen in my lifetime because it is a Right granted and inframed in our Constitution. Our Country likely would not even exist without the first ten amendments to our Constitution and the "right to bear arms" is the 2nd Amendment. Free speech and freedom of the Press is the First, although that seems to be causing more problems now than it did during the "Yellow journalism" days now!

Edited October 30, 2018 by lost_shaman

[psyche101]

43 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

No it is not. Guns don't kill people! People kill People. That's the simple truth you are ignoring psyche! I love you like a brother even though I've never met you and you are on the other side of this little Planet, but on this issue I just can not agree with you and I feel like you don't understand the way American's feel or the need we actually have to protect ourselves and this is a Right our Constitution grants us that can not be taken away without some serious political action that just is not going to happen in my lifetime because it is a Right granted and inframed in our Constitution. Our Country likely would not even exist without the first ten amendments to our Constitution and the "right to bear arms" is the 2nd Amendment. Free speech and freedom of the Press is the First, although that seems to be causing more problems now than it did during the "Yellow journalism" days now!

I would hate to see the US lose its identity, its shaped our culture quite heavily, and the feelings mutual. I've always really enjoyed our discussions and hold you in high regard and I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one  as cultural views neither is right or wrong really, I just am deeply saddened by the violence and death I read about so often and wish the US a bright future without that horrible toll. I see another thread has recently been added to that sad news, I wish the victims of the families deepest sympathies. I honestly hope you guys get on top of it whatever the solution may be. 

[lost_shaman]

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I honestly hope you guys get on top of it whatever the solution may be.

I honestly feel that the U.S. abandoned Mental Health during the 1980's. Both my Parents were Mental Health workers and the U.S. abandoned that paradigm of treating Mental Health in the 1990's. If we still had those institutions in place there would be a lot more help for people with problems and less people that would pass background checks. But for whatever reason, Mental Health was abandoned in large part and some posters on this thread have touched on that point talking about depression drugs and those simply don't take the place of the Mental Health institutions we used to have in place. 

[+OverSword]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

You have more people but 63% of your people live on 3.5% of your land. 

How is that not more densely populated?

We didn't bring in regulation because we were leaning that way. We were getting a regular rate of shootings. The people found this unacceptable. Port Arthur was the straw. It was introduced quite suddenly. When John Howard said he had a plan to end the killing we embraced it and we have been reaping the results ever since. 

So what is your point? We’re not going to give up our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. We’re not going to let the government decide who needs them or why. We’re not going to take a test for a license like needed to drive. Why are you arguing? From your point of view we’re wrong. We know. We’ve decided that the price we pay is acceptable. To you it’s not, though I doubt they ever gave you a choice. Seems like what you really are is holier than thou to me.