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Still Waters

California gun sales ban for people under 21

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lost_shaman
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

So if the police see someone with a gun who looks under 21 they have the right to stop them and ask for ID and a license which I think would identify them pretty quickly, which has to be an advantage. 

Not exactly. If the Police see ANYONE with a gun they have the right to disarm you with force if needed and then you must show you are 'legally' allowed to "open carry". Otherwise the laws for "concealed carry" vary by State. For example, I legally own a handgun, but I don't have a "concealed carry" permit so I can have my gun with me in my Car as long as it is not in plain sight. But I couldn't walk around with it in my waistband or pocket, although due to a recent 9th circuit Court ruling I could probably openly carry it on my person in plain sight in a Holster. However, this latter fact is not clarified to my satisfaction and it I'd likely end up being arrested and needing a Lawyer to point out the 9th circuit's ruling (?). This latter fact will likely have to be clarified by the Supreme Court in the near future. That said in my state Texas these licenses are now simply referred to a "license to carry" and allow you to either "concealed carry" or "open carry" on your person in Public.  

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psyche101
27 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Not exactly. If the Police see ANYONE with a gun they have the right to disarm you with force if needed and then you must show you are 'legally' allowed to "open carry". Otherwise the laws for "concealed carry" vary by State. For example, I legally own a handgun, but I don't have a "concealed carry" permit so I can have my gun with me in my Car as long as it is not in plain sight. But I couldn't walk around with it in my waistband or pocket, although due to a recent 9th circuit Court ruling I could probably openly carry it on my person in plain sight in a Holster. However, this latter fact is not clarified to my satisfaction and it I'd likely end up being arrested and needing a Lawyer to point out the 9th circuit's ruling (?). This latter fact will likely have to be clarified by the Supreme Court in the near future. That said in my state Texas these licenses are now simply referred to a "license to carry" and allow you to either "concealed carry" or "open carry" on your person in Public.  

The effect of this law though is that if police see a person who appears to be under 21, they know immediately that the person should be checked for age as the weapon is most likely illegal. As such, a criminal is easily identified. 

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lost_shaman
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

The effect of this law though is that if police see a person who appears to be under 21, they know immediately that the person should be checked for age as the weapon is most likely illegal. As such, a criminal is easily identified. 

I think you are misunderstanding. Anyone with a gun is checked no matter what age in all States. What this Law does is prevent 18 - 21 year olds from going to the Gun Shop and purchasing a gun in California. In other States any 18 year old can go Purchase a Gun if they pass the Federally mandated background checks. 

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psyche101
4 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I think you are misunderstanding. Anyone with a gun is checked no matter what age in all States. What this Law does is prevent 18 - 21 year olds from going to the Gun Shop and purchasing a gun in California. In other States any 18 year old can go Purchase a Gun if they pass the Federally mandated background checks. 

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. 

Not talking about purchase. 

If a policeman sees somone on the street who appears to be under the age of 21, they can immediately flag it as possibly illegal. Its a shortcut process for identification. If the person produces age verification and a gun license, the police thank the person for their cooperation and the two parties go seperately ways. If not, the conversation ensues at the station. Seems to be a benefit. 

Edited by psyche101
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Myles
45 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. 

Not talking about purchase. 

If a policeman sees somone on the street who appears to be under the age of 21, they can immediately flag it as possibly illegal. Its a shortcut process for identification. If the person produces age verification and a gun license, the police thank the person for their cooperation and the two parties go seperately ways. If not, the conversation ensues at the station. Seems to be a benefit. 

Kind of like stopping a Latino and asking for ID.

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Gunn
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. 

Not talking about purchase. 

If a policeman sees somone on the street who appears to be under the age of 21, they can immediately flag it as possibly illegal. Its a shortcut process for identification. If the person produces age verification and a gun license, the police thank the person for their cooperation and the two parties go seperately ways. If not, the conversation ensues at the station. Seems to be a benefit. 

I kinda get the feeling you might think Americans carry six shooters on their sides like cowboys in the city limits? We haven't done that for over a hundred years. Now maybe in some remote wilderness areas or woods, some people carry a sidearm for protection or hunting from time to time and that's usually legal across most states so long as it's outside city limits.

Maybe you think teenagers go around brandishing there weapons over here in public? There hasn't been that many teens to have ever done that over here, unless they were stupid drunk, I mean it's really rare. But most teens who do own a weapon usually keep their weapons in their vehicles, like in a glove box or case. Much like they are permitted to in my state of Florida. Because most like to protect themselves out on the road or for hunting purposes after school.

Quote

In vehicles: “It is lawful for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purposes within the interior of a private vehicle, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Securely encased means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.”

https://www.ajc.com/news/national/florida-gun-laws-how-have-they-changed-after-the-parkland-shooting/BIhOP1bppQJjV7Nl1F7ZXI/

Looks to be about the same in California with some minor differences.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-vehicles-in-california/

And it's usually the case in most states.

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Myles
24 minutes ago, Gunn said:

I kinda get the feeling you might think Americans carry six shooters on their sides like cowboys in the city limits? We haven't done that for over a hundred years. Now maybe in some remote wilderness areas or woods, some people carry a sidearm for protection or hunting from time to time and that's usually legal across most states so long as it's outside city limits.

 

Are you "pro gun".

:D

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psyche101
11 hours ago, Myles said:

Kind of like stopping a Latino and asking for ID.

Nothing like that whatsoever. Being Latino can't kill someone. 

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psyche101
8 hours ago, Gunn said:

I kinda get the feeling you might think Americans carry six shooters on their sides like cowboys in the city limits? We haven't done that for over a hundred years. Now maybe in some remote wilderness areas or woods, some people carry a sidearm for protection or hunting from time to time and that's usually legal across most states so long as it's outside city limits.

I see people bragging about carrying often on these forums, I see the Florida's Stand Your Ground case where some idiot is brandishing a weapon at others to get them to do his bidding and even killed someone because they pushed him over, I read a thread about kids having a Facebook fight and one getting shot dead, and I see shootings happening on a regular occourance. There almost a new thread a week lately on American shootings. And I see support of these instances that completely defy common sense and compassion. Co workers losing it and killing Co workers, people mad at the world. How can that happen if a significant amount of people don't carry? 

Did you read what that clown posted in post #9? What an idiot. People like that just make the whole culture look like a bunch of rednecks, and he's not alone. Tough talk like that does not make people look tough. It makes them look like disrespectful idiots. And it's idiots like that whom I suspect are most likely to end a traffic altercation or Facebook fight with a weapon. 

With all due respect, its exactly what any normal person would conclude from such regular madness and BS bravado. Americans themselves also very much give exactly that impression with this unusual personal association with weapons. And it only happens where guns seem to have some status of worship. The US. 

 

8 hours ago, Gunn said:

Maybe you think teenagers go around brandishing there weapons over here in public?

I don't think anyone who disrespects the law to begin with would care to be honest. Why would they? 

Yes, I can see a young criminal spurred on by bravado getting caught out by their own disrespect and stupidity. 

8 hours ago, Gunn said:

There hasn't been that many teens to have ever done that over here, unless they were stupid drunk, I mean it's really rare. But most teens who do own a weapon usually keep their weapons in their vehicles, like in a glove box or case. Much like they are permitted to in my state of Florida. Because most like to protect themselves out on the road or for hunting purposes after school.

And you telling me its not akin to the 1800s???

It sure as heck is exactly what you are describing. That's honestly ridiculous. This is 2018. Kids going to school with a gun in the glove box? Nowhere but America. 

I don't think if someone is carrying a weapon for genuine protection would want others to know what they have and where they keep it. I can see an idiot acting like that fool Drejka pointing a gun because he felt someone was driving too slow in a school zone. Those idiots would become quite visible with this law from what I understand. 

8 hours ago, Gunn said:

This is where it all falls apart, and defeats the purpose of trying to improve the situation. Easy access, which dominoes into cheap purchase. It's easy for a criminal mind to get the advantage of a weapon. 

In Florida, a permit to purchase a gun is not required. A permit to carry a handgun is required.

You do not have to register a gun in Florida.

There is no restriction on the size of magazines you may own.

Background checks on private gun sales are not required.

Every one of those points is a huge advantage to any criminal or sick mind. 

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lost_shaman
13 hours ago, psyche101 said:

If a policeman sees somone on the street who appears to be under the age of 21, they can immediately flag it as possibly illegal. Its a shortcut process for identification. If the person produces age verification and a gun license, the police thank the person for their cooperation and the two parties go seperately ways. If not, the conversation ensues at the station. Seems to be a benefit. 

What I'm trying to say to you is that if the Police see ANY gun at all they assume it's illegal no matter who you are or what age you are and will disarm you first and then ask to see if you are legally carrying that gun. 

Also a person like myself who doesn't have a "license to carry" yet but who legally owns my handgun and can legally carry it with me in my car out of plain sight, must announce to the Police immediately that I have a gun in my Car first thing I have to say to them if I were to be pulled over for any reason or that would be a violation of the law and I could potentially be arrested if I don't tell them there is a gun in my car first thing. Then they would make me exit the car and disarm the gun before they ask about whether it is legally mine.  

Edited by lost_shaman

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lost_shaman

Psyche, Gunn, et al.,

In Texas, and this isn't true in all States but many, if you have a 'licence to carry' you can openly carry a gun in a holster around town or anywhere just like the 1800's if you want to. Not many people do choose to open(ly) carry but if you have the 'licence' then you can do that. Now that said, in Texas, if there is a public building or private public Store that building can be designated as a gun free building if they choose but they have to post 30-05 and 30-06 signs on the entrances of that building, all entrances, where the 30-05 sign legally prohibits a person from entering that building with a concealed firearm and the 30-06 sign prohibits any person (other than Police) from entering that building with an openly carried firearm. 

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pallidin
20 hours ago, psyche101 said:

So if the police see someone with a gun who looks under 21 they have the right to stop them and ask for ID and a license which I think would identify them pretty quickly, which has to be an advantage. 

They can do that for alcohol possession.

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lost_shaman
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

This is where it all falls apart, and defeats the purpose of trying to improve the situation. Easy access, which dominoes into cheap purchase. It's easy for a criminal mind to get the advantage of a weapon. 

 

The problem similar to this is that there are States and Cities like Illinois, and Chicago, Il, that have very strict gun Laws that make it extremely difficult for Law abiding Citizens from owning, purchasing, or carrying a Gun to defend themselves, although it is not "impossible" in paces like the aforementioned it is very difficult and expensive to purchase and carry legally. So, what happens is that unsavory people that want to make easy money will go across State lines and purchase say a few handguns for $300 - $400 dollars each  and then go back into Chicago for instance and Sell those same guns to Felons or Drug dealers for $2,500 dollars or more. It's totally illegal to do this but it's easy money for those who do do this. Also another way criminals get their hands on Guns is that it is easy for criminals to break into people's cars who legally own guns and are leaving their guns in their cars, then these criminals can break into a car and take the gun and go sell it to their criminal friends for big bucks. This is why States and Cities with very strict gun laws tend to have the highest rates of Gun related Crime because the criminals know that it is almost always the case that they are the only ones with Guns and Law abiding Citizens are most likely not going to have their own Gun to defend themselves. 

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psyche101
3 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

What I'm trying to say to you is that if the Police see ANY gun at all they assume it's illegal no matter who you are or what age you are and will disarm you first and then ask to see if you are legally carrying that gun. 

Also a person like myself who doesn't have a "license to carry" yet but who legally owns my handgun and can legally carry it with me in my car out of plain sight, must announce to the Police immediately that I have a gun in my Car first thing I have to say to them if I were to be pulled over for any reason or that would be a violation of the law and I could potentially be arrested if I don't tell them there is a gun in my car first thing. Then they would make me exit the car and disarm the gun before they ask about whether it is legally mine.  

This is what I find confusing. Here you say you cannot openly carry or you will be stopped, yet in the very next post #36 you stated that you can openly carry a gun just like in the wild wild West. 

These conclusions contradict. 

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psyche101
3 hours ago, pallidin said:

They can do that for alcohol possession.

Indeed, does it not stand to reason the same should apply to a deadly weapon? 

Edited by psyche101

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psyche101
2 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

The problem similar to this is that there are States and Cities like Illinois, and Chicago, Il, that have very strict gun Laws that make it extremely difficult for Law abiding Citizens from owning, purchasing, or carrying a Gun to defend themselves, although it is not "impossible" in paces like the aforementioned it is very difficult and expensive to purchase and carry legally. So, what happens is that unsavory people that want to make easy money will go across State lines and purchase say a few handguns for $300 - $400 dollars each  and then go back into Chicago for instance and Sell those same guns to Felons or Drug dealers for $2,500 dollars or more. It's totally illegal to do this but it's easy money for those who do do this. Also another way criminals get their hands on Guns is that it is easy for criminals to break into people's cars who legally own guns and are leaving their guns in their cars, then these criminals can break into a car and take the gun and go sell it to their criminal friends for big bucks. This is why States and Cities with very strict gun laws tend to have the highest rates of Gun related Crime because the criminals know that it is almost always the case that they are the only ones with Guns and Law abiding Citizens are most likely not going to have their own Gun to defend themselves. 

But that just shows a dysfunctional state of affairs. The states trying to improve the situation are let down by surrounding states. If people are having to leave the state to purchase weapons illegally then it's working. If every state supported the initiative there would be no states to hop across to, the closest source would be Mexico and then you only have one source to worry about as opposed to dozens. Criminals would find guns exorbitantly expensive and have to do without. A pistol on the black market here will set you back about 15 thousand. Petty criminals don't have the money to arm themselves. 

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lost_shaman
3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

This is what I find confusing. Here you say you cannot openly carry or you will be stopped, yet in the very next post #36 you stated that you can openly carry a gun just like in the wild wild West. 

These conclusions contradict. 

No they don't conflict if you take a pause and think about (ponder) what I'm telling you. You can legally openly carry a gun if you have the 'licence' to do so. Now when the Police see you with an openly carried Gun, they have no idea if you have a 'licence' to openly carry that gun. SO, they by default assume you don't have that 'licence' and they have no idea why you are openly carrying that gun. SO, they will confront you and disarm you and only then will they attempt to discover if you are a 'licence' holder (you must have that licence with you). Only after you can show you are legally allowed via your 'licence' to carry are you then given your gun back and allowed to go on about your way. 

Nothing hard or confusing to understand here. 

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psyche101
4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I see people bragging about carrying often on these forums, I see the Florida's Stand Your Ground case where some idiot is brandishing a weapon at others to get them to do his bidding and even killed someone because they pushed him over, I read a thread about kids having a Facebook fight and one getting shot dead, and I see shootings happening on a regular occourance. There almost a new thread a week lately on American shootings. And I see support of these instances that completely defy common sense and compassion. Co workers losing it and killing Co workers, people mad at the world. How can that happen if a significant amount of people don't carry? 

Did you read what that clown posted in post #9? What an idiot. People like that just make the whole culture look like a bunch of rednecks, and he's not alone. Tough talk like that does not make people look tough. It makes them look like disrespectful idiots. And it's idiots like that whom I suspect are most likely to end a traffic altercation or Facebook fight with a weapon. 

With all due respect, its exactly what any normal person would conclude from such regular madness and BS bravado. Americans themselves also very much give exactly that impression with this unusual personal association with weapons. And it only happens where guns seem to have some status of worship. The US. 

 

I don't think anyone who disrespects the law to begin with would care to be honest. Why would they? 

Yes, I can see a young criminal spurred on by bravado getting caught out by their own disrespect and stupidity. 

And you telling me its not akin to the 1800s???

It sure as heck is exactly what you are describing. That's honestly ridiculous. This is 2018. Kids going to school with a gun in the glove box? Nowhere but America. 

I don't think if someone is carrying a weapon for genuine protection would want others to know what they have and where they keep it. I can see an idiot acting like that fool Drejka pointing a gun because he felt someone was driving too slow in a school zone. Those idiots would become quite visible with this law from what I understand. 

This is where it all falls apart, and defeats the purpose of trying to improve the situation. Easy access, which dominoes into cheap purchase. It's easy for a criminal mind to get the advantage of a weapon. 

In Florida, a permit to purchase a gun is not required. A permit to carry a handgun is required.

You do not have to register a gun in Florida.

There is no restriction on the size of magazines you may own.

Background checks on private gun sales are not required.

Every one of those points is a huge advantage to any criminal or sick mind. 

Which part has you confused Myles? Seems pretty easy to understand I would think. 

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

No they don't conflict if you take a pause and think about (ponder) what I'm telling you. You can legally openly carry a gun if you have the 'licence' to do so. Now when the Police see you with an openly carried Gun, they have no idea if you have a 'licence' to openly carry that gun. SO, they by default assume you don't have that 'licence' and they have no idea why you are openly carrying that gun. SO, they will confront you and disarm you and only then will they attempt to discover if you are a 'licence' holder (you must have that licence with you). Only after you can show you are legally allowed via your 'licence' to carry are you then given your gun back and allowed to go on about your way. 

Nothing hard or confusing to understand here. 

Did you not say in certain states, you can carry without issue though? 

 

Quote

In Texas, and this isn't true in all States but many, if you have a 'licence to carry' you can openly carry a gun in a holster around town or anywhere just like the 1800's if you want to. Not many people do choose to open(ly) carry but if you have the 'licence' then you can do that. 

 

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

But that just shows a dysfunctional state of affairs. The states trying to improve the situation are let down by surrounding states. If people are having to leave the state to purchase weapons illegally then it's working. If every state supported the initiative there would be no states to hop across to, the closest source would be Mexico and then you only have one source to worry about as opposed to dozens. Criminals would find guns exorbitantly expensive and have to do without. A pistol on the black market here will set you back about 15 thousand. Petty criminals don't have the money to arm themselves. 

You have it backwards. The U.S. constitution (2nd Amendment) allows U.S. citizens to own firearms. Period. The States and Cities that pass laws that are restrictive are only restricting Law abiding Citizens, Criminals by the very definition are Law breakers and therefore end up having an advantage in their Criminal pursuits because they can be confident that their victims will likely not have a weapon to defend themselves. 

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lost_shaman
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Did you not say in certain states, you can carry without issue though? 

I have not went to get a 'licence to carry' yet, it takes a full day of training and a fee. That said I went through a Federally mandated background check and one week waiting period to purchase my handgun. So I legally own my gun, I'm simply not yet 'licensed' to concealed or openly carry that gun on my person in public, but I'm totally legal to carry it with me in my car as long as it is kept out of "plain sight".

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psyche101
1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

You have it backwards. The U.S. constitution (2nd Amendment) allows U.S. citizens to own firearms. Period. The States and Cities that pass laws that are restrictive are only restricting Law abiding Citizens, Criminals by the very definition are Law breakers and therefore end up having an advantage in their Criminal pursuits because they can be confident that their victims will likely not have a weapon to defend themselves. 

That's circular reasoning. 

If criminals don't have guns, you don't need guns to defend yourself against their guns. 

Also, thats an ammendment in the constitution. Considering it is not the 1800's in the wild wild west, it seems appropriate to amend the ammendment to suit the times. Correct me if I'm wrong but and ammendment is a change. If the change was initiated in the first instance, why is it so horrifying for Americans to consider amending the ammendment? 

The states who are attempting gun control don't defy the ammendment from what I can tell. They enforce responsibility and accountability. I'm not sure why so many gun owners fear responsibility and accountability. 

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

I have not went to get a 'licence to carry' yet, it takes a full day of training and a fee. That said I went through a Federally mandated background check and one week waiting period to purchase my handgun. So I legally own my gun, I'm simply not yet 'licensed' to concealed or openly carry that gun on my person in public, but I'm totally legal to carry it with me in my car as long as it is kept out of "plain sight".

But if you had an open license, you could without issue according to your earlier statement? 

That sounds very much like the same principle this law would enable? 

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lost_shaman
8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Did you not say in certain states,

Yes, every State has its own specific Laws. Most States laws are similar, but not all. I gave Illinois as an example earlier. That State does not recognize other States 'licence of carry'. Other States do recognise other States 'licence to carry'. So you have to know the Laws if you travel across State lines.  

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psyche101
2 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

Yes, every State has its own specific Laws. Most States laws are similar, but not all. I gave Illinois as an example earlier. That State does not recognize other States 'licence of carry'. Other States do recognise other States 'licence to carry'. So you have to know the Laws if you travel across State lines.  

Thanks for your patience it's hard to understand. Seeing as guns carry a great responsibility, why are gun laws federal instead of state controlled? 

I've seen states outright challenge the constitution many times, in particular the case of Cecil Bothwell. 

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