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Still Waters

California gun sales ban for people under 21

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lost_shaman
7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's circular reasoning. 

No it isn't. 

 

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

If criminals don't have guns, you don't need guns to defend yourself against their guns. 

But Criminals, by definition break Laws and obtain illegal guns. So Law abiding citizens need weapons to defend themselves.

 

10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Also, thats an ammendment in the constitution. Considering it is not the 1800's in the wild wild west, it seems appropriate to amend the ammendment to suit the times. Correct me if I'm wrong but and ammendment is a change. If the change was initiated in the first instance, why is it so horrifying for Americans to consider amending the ammendment? 

The first amendments were needed to get the Constitution Ratified. The First and Second Amendments were part of these first Amendments that allowed the Constitution to get Ratified. So yes they are addendums to the Constitution but are basically considered as fundamental parts of the Constitution. And yes these could be changed or discarded but doing so would be extremely difficult via the needed to do so that are spelled out in the Constitution propper. 

19 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The states who are attempting gun control don't defy the ammendment from what I can tell. They enforce responsibility and accountability. I'm not sure why so many gun owners fear responsibility and accountability. 

I disagree. These States are suffering unintended consequences by passing Laws that are prohibitive towards responsible Law abiding Citizens while skirting the very edge of the 2nd Amendment. This gives Criminals the advantage and this can be confirmed and born out by the FACT that these States have the highest rates of Criminal Gun crimes.

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lost_shaman
21 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

But if you had an open license, you could without issue according to your earlier statement? 

That sounds very much like the same principle this law would enable? 

No you would still be disarmed by Police and only then would they ask you to show your 'licence to carry'. If you have one then you get your gun back and go along your way.

 

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lost_shaman
12 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Thanks for your patience it's hard to understand. Seeing as guns carry a great responsibility, why are gun laws federal instead of state controlled? 

I can imagine this is hard to understand to a non-U.S. citizen. The right to 'bear arms' is Federal as per the 2nd Amendment, but the States have the right to make their own laws regarding this as long as they do not blatantly "infringe" that right. Some States like Illinois pass restrictive Laws that get as close as possible to "infringing" on the 2nd amendment without actually crossing the line. But that is to their detriment as the amount of Gun Crime there bears out.

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Gunn
20 hours ago, Myles said:

Are you "pro gun".

:D

Hmmm. What gave it away I wonder? :lol:

Edited by Gunn
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psyche101
6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No it isn't. 

 

But Criminals, by definition break Laws and obtain illegal guns. So Law abiding citizens need weapons to defend themselves.

That's accelerating rather than decelerating the situation. It's making weapons all the easier to obtain. That's shown by things like the black market price of a gun or public shootings. Regulation has been shown time and again to decelerate gun crime. 

6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

The first amendments were needed to get the Constitution Ratified. The First and Second Amendments were part of these first Amendments that allowed the Constitution to get Ratified. So yes they are addendums to the Constitution but are basically considered as fundamental parts of the Constitution. And yes these could be changed or discarded but doing so would be extremely difficult via the needed to do so that are spelled out in the Constitution propper. 

Society is about growth, the old reasons of a rogue government and such are really quite silly excuses. But regardless I don't see how regulation affects the second ammendment. Its about having the right to bear arms against hostile forces as an armed militia is it not? I can't see how that applies to every single person. Regulation is about owning responsibility and accountability, and the posters I have discussed the subject with who appear very responsible agree that they would not have anything to worry about. Would you not say the Constitution was meant for that sort of responsible person rather than anyone and everyone including criminals? 

6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I disagree. These States are suffering unintended consequences by passing Laws that are prohibitive towards responsible Law abiding Citizens while skirting the very edge of the 2nd Amendment. This gives Criminals the advantage and this can be confirmed and born out by the FACT that these States have the highest rates of Criminal Gun crimes.

Yes it does put the honest people abiding by the law at greater risk, particularly when a couple of hours in a car might see one in a different state where weapons can be obtained. The only way it could work is nationally. 

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psyche101
6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No you would still be disarmed by Police and only then would they ask you to show your 'licence to carry'. If you have one then you get your gun back and go along your way.

 

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised and happy to stand corrected. I really don't get that impression from other pro gun posters. 

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lost_shaman
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

That's accelerating rather than decelerating the situation. It's making weapons all the easier to obtain. That's shown by things like the black market price of a gun or public shootings. Regulation has been shown time and again to decelerate gun crime. 

No, it hasn't. Not in the United States. Just the opposite actually. 

 

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Society is about growth, the old reasons of a rogue government and such are really quite silly excuses. But regardless I don't see how regulation affects the second ammendment. Its about having the right to bear arms against hostile forces as an armed militia is it not? I can't see how that applies to every single person.

I'm sorry you can't 'see' it, but the Supreme Court has upheld the individual's right to bear arms more than once based on the 2nd Amendment. 

 

5 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Regulation is about owning responsibility and accountability, and the posters I have discussed the subject with who appear very responsible agree that they would not have anything to worry about. Would you not say the Constitution was meant for that sort of responsible person rather than anyone and everyone including criminals? 

Criminals forfeit their rights to own firearms when they commit Felonies. By committing Felonious acts they prove their irresponsibility to society. They also forfeit their rights to be free and walk the streets, and to drink Alcohol. 

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Gunn
13 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I see people bragging about carrying often on these forums, I see the Florida's Stand Your Ground case where some idiot is brandishing a weapon at others to get them to do his bidding and even killed someone because they pushed him over, I read a thread about kids having a Facebook fight and one getting shot dead, and I see shootings happening on a regular occourance. There almost a new thread a week lately on American shootings. And I see support of these instances that completely defy common sense and compassion. Co workers losing it and killing Co workers, people mad at the world. How can that happen if a significant amount of people don't carry? 

Did you read what that clown posted in post #9? What an idiot. People like that just make the whole culture look like a bunch of rednecks, and he's not alone. Tough talk like that does not make people look tough. It makes them look like disrespectful idiots. And it's idiots like that whom I suspect are most likely to end a traffic altercation or Facebook fight with a weapon. 

With all due respect, its exactly what any normal person would conclude from such regular madness and BS bravado. Americans themselves also very much give exactly that impression with this unusual personal association with weapons. And it only happens where guns seem to have some status of worship. The US.

Well first of all, I didn't say people don't carry. I was trying to explain to you that most of us (besides cops, peace keepers, licensed gun carriers) don't hardly carry our guns on our hips in a holster like cowboys. A few do carry concealed weapons hidden on our persons (shoulder holsters, ankle holsters, purses), but that's "if" we are approved to have a license to carry a weapon, which isn't easy to get BTW; they don't just hand those out like candy.

Second of all, what you read on here from a handful of Americans is no reason to judge the rest of us. Okay? That's really generalizing all of us when you do that. Hell man...there are some Americans in our country who don't even own a BB gun for godsakes. There again, what you see on the news over there about shootings and gun fights over here is only a handful of incidents. You make it sound like all you are seeing is ALL Americans shooting at each other 24/7. We got law and order here man and a majority of Americans obey those laws a majority of the time. And on the rare occasions somebody does go waving their gun around like an idiot, you can bet the police are there not long after arresting them or shooting them first and asking questions later. Police don't tolerate that crap.
 

Quote

 

I don't think anyone who disrespects the law to begin with would care to be honest. Why would they? 

Yes, I can see a young criminal spurred on by bravado getting caught out by their own disrespect and stupidity.

 

Yeah but are you telling me you think ALL teenagers do that here in the U.S.? The handful who do that stupid crap, I can tell you they don't last long or end up prison. It's not like most get away with it, you know? It's almost like you believe every thing you see on your news about us. I certainly don't  believe every negative thing I see on our news about your country, Psyche. I mean what are they telling you about us and what happens over here? Are they only reporting the worse of the worse to you? Like it's going on 24/7 and we are at war blowing each other away or something? I think we're being misrepresented by a few incidents that occasional happen from to time.

Quote

And you telling me its not akin to the 1800s???

It sure as heck is exactly what you are describing. That's honestly ridiculous. This is 2018. Kids going to school with a gun in the glove box? Nowhere but America. 

I don't think if someone is carrying a weapon for genuine protection would want others to know what they have and where they keep it. I can see an idiot acting like that fool Drejka pointing a gun because he felt someone was driving too slow in a school zone. Those idiots would become quite visible with this law from what I understand. 

Wait a minute...It sounds like you think we're all crazy and have no self control or responsibility while owning a gun. Is that what you think of us? Hell I carry a gun in my glove box too, but I've never thought about pulling it out and pointing it at someone on the road, just because they're driving too slow or for any reason. And most responsible gun owners lock the glove box, if they don't want it stolen, and carry it into the house for the night. I'd appreciate it if you would quit generalizing all of us like that. That's honestly ridiculous.

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This is where it all falls apart, and defeats the purpose of trying to improve the situation. Easy access, which dominoes into cheap purchase. It's easy for a criminal mind to get the advantage of a weapon. 

In Florida, a permit to purchase a gun is not required. A permit to carry a handgun is required.

You do not have to register a gun in Florida.

There is no restriction on the size of magazines you may own.

Background checks on private gun sales are not required.

Every one of those points is a huge advantage to any criminal or sick mind. 

 

Nah that doesn't effect criminals anyway, even if those advantages didn't exist, since most criminals don't get their guns from legal a source of purchase. In some case they may have stolen them, but usually they buy them cheap along with drugs, traced back all the way from across the Mexican border. Yet who it would have given an advantage to, before the new Florida gun laws, is those who might commit massacres with mental health problems. But guess what? It might interest you to know that Florida has clamped down on potential cases who make threats and have mental health problems as well.

Quote

 

Extreme Risk protection order: Law enforcement agencies will be able to petition a court for a temporary order that stops a person from purchasing or possessing firearms. The orders will be sought only when a person demonstrates behaviors that pose a significant danger to themselves or others.

Mental competency: The law prohibits a person who has been judged “mentally defective” or who has been committed to a mental institution from owning or possessing a firearm until a court orders otherwise.

 

That's all in that same article about Florida's new gun laws BTW. Guess you missed that? And I think a lot of other states will soon follow with similar laws, and I think that will help hopefully solve some of the senseless gun massacres we've been having.

 

Edited by Gunn
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griss47

Regarding Illinois/Chicago residents/criminals crossing state lines to purchase handguns, this in not true when it comes to Missouri (which shares a border with Illinois for those that might not know).  Missouri does have some of the least restrictive gun laws in the U.S.  But, a resident from another state cannot purchase a handgun in Missouri.  In Missouri, you must be a resident of Missouri, and be 21 to purchase a handgun or handgun ammo and MUST pass a background check. 

For example, I have a friend who recently moved back to Missouri after several years of living in Colorado.  He cannot currently purchase a handgun here as he still has his Colorado Driver's License/Identification.  Until he obtains his Missouri Driver's License/Identification (which requires him to prove he resides here) he cannot purchase a handgun.

Edited by griss47
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aztek

yes we know that, yet liberals think guns walk themselves over state lines and convince people to use them to commit crimes, they also blame legal owners claiming it is our fault guns get into criminals hand, yet....

Police say 2 men broke into a UPS facility and stole 400 guns

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/02/us/guns-stolen-from-ups-trnd/index.html

 

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griss47
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes we know that, yet liberals think guns walk themselves over state lines and convince people to use them to commit crimes, they also blame legal owners claiming it is our fault guns get into criminals hand, yet....

Police say 2 men broke into a UPS facility and stole 400 guns

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/02/us/guns-stolen-from-ups-trnd/index.html

 

My post was in response to lost_shaman stating the people from Chicago cross state lines to purchase guns.  I probably should have quoted him for the context.

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Farmer77
On 10/2/2018 at 9:54 AM, Gunn said:

I kinda get the feeling you might think Americans carry six shooters on their sides like cowboys in the city limits? We haven't done that for over a hundred years.

This is interesting. I grew up in AK and currently live in AZ and NV and people in all three states still carry six shooters and much more on their hips openly.

 

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aztek
5 minutes ago, griss47 said:

My post was in response to lost_shaman stating the people from Chicago cross state lines to purchase guns.

i'm sure he was told the same for years,  and he is not alone here. but it is no use, they believe what they want to believe,  they wont believe the truth even if it smacked them in their faces. some people just outright deny personal responsibility, and blame all on guns, and people who own them and do not commit crimes with them.

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aztek
Just now, Farmer77 said:

This is interesting. I grew up in AK and currently live in AZ and NV and people in all three states still carry six shooters and much more on their hips openly.

 

yes i've seen some openly carry, like 1 in 100,  PA allows open carry i have not seen anyone there open carrying in a while, and i go there quite often, we have people here from PA i wonder how often do they see people carry openly.

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Farmer77
14 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes i've seen some openly carry, like 1 in 100,  PA allows open carry i have not seen anyone there open carrying in a while, and i go there quite often, we have people here from PA i wonder how often do they see people carry openly.

Yeah thats probably on average what I see, maybe a little more. ....If you throw in pizza delivery guys it starts to skew the averages though, they're always packing here LOL

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psyche101
22 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I can imagine this is hard to understand to a non-U.S. citizen. The right to 'bear arms' is Federal as per the 2nd Amendment, but the States have the right to make their own laws regarding this as long as they do not blatantly "infringe" that right. Some States like Illinois pass restrictive Laws that get as close as possible to "infringing" on the 2nd amendment without actually crossing the line. But that is to their detriment as the amount of Gun Crime there bears out.

Moreso coming from a country that had such success with gun control. Here, the community was and still is far in favour of gun control. Yet in America the very opposite seems to be the general view. Im sure my views are as foreign as well. With so many cultural parallels, it's very hard to reconcile such a great difference in that one aspect. 

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psyche101
16 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No, it hasn't. Not in the United States. Just the opposite actually. 

Its not a nationwide approach is why though. That's why it's been a huge success in this country and failed in a few states in America. That's the major difference here. Its definitely accelerating the situation as its just making more secondhand cheap weapons available, intensifying the situation by increasing the number of cheap weapons and keeping that stock replenished. 

Quote

I'm sorry you can't 'see' it, but the Supreme Court has upheld the individual's right to bear arms more than once based on the 2nd Amendment. 

Indeed, but things are getting worse. The frequency of public killing is exceeding any other place on earth. 

And the weapons industry is worth billions. I read the NRA alone generates around 400 million a year. I can't imagine that not being a factor in such rulings. 

Quote

Criminals forfeit their rights to own firearms when they commit Felonies. By committing Felonious acts they prove their irresponsibility to society. They also forfeit their rights to be free and walk the streets, and to drink Alcohol. 

But that's the point, they have already shown they have no respect for society and the laws that hold it together. They will take advantage. Regulation makes them stand out more. There are more people with guns in Australia than many realise, we just don't see them because they have to be exceptionally responsible for that privelidge. 

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and then

I wasn't aware that Texas was so strict with the second amendment.  In Alabama, unless you are a convicted Felon or domestic abuser, you have the right to open carry in any public location that does not restrict it specifically.  Signs must be posted in said locations.  CCP's are given after a cursory criminal background check.  CCPs can be pulled by police if a person is found to be carrying concealed without that permit on their person but they usually only warn the individual, as mistakes happen to everyone and the cops would rather not cause another individual to open carry and cause them the headache of checking out someone walking about with a sidearm (or rifle) in plain view.  I rarely open carry but if my CCP was pulled I would certainly buy a holster and start.  

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Hawken

Law enforcement can't even get a handle on illegal drugs let alone illegal guns.

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lost_shaman
5 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Moreso coming from a country that had such success with gun control. Here, the community was and still is far in favour of gun control. Yet in America the very opposite seems to be the general view. Im sure my views are as foreign as well. With so many cultural parallels, it's very hard to reconcile such a great difference in that one aspect. 

Yeah your views on this subject are fairly foreign to me for sure. I guess here in the U.S. with the right to bear arms having been codified in our Constitution for around 240 years or so we just have a "Gun Culture". I remember being taken on Hunting trips with my Dad and Uncles back as early as I was 4 years old. And remember at around the same age my Dad and Uncles all sitting around at my Grandparents house cleaning their guns. By the time I was 5 I got a BB gun for Christmas and I lived on Farmland back then and my Grandparents lived in a very small community and that BB gun was my favorite Toy for years, and at about age 8 I got a daisy 880 pump action BB/pellet gun which was much more powerful than my first BB gun and I spent probably all my free time as a young kid shooting those BB guns either at my home on weekdays or at my Grandparents neighborhood on Weekends, and their I had a few friends in that small community and they all had 880 BB/pellet guns too and we would run all over that neighborhood and the surrounding countryside hunting and target shooting our 880's. By the time I was 10 or so My Dad and I would go Dove Hunting with Shotguns every year and I got yo use my Great Grandfathers "squirrel" gun which was a single shot 410 shotgun with a choked barrel that must be about 140 year old now, the choked barrel gives it a small shot pattern so I became a very good shot using that gun at such a young age, whereas a 20 gauge or 12 gauge shotgun has a much larger shot pattern so when I ever used one of those I practically couldn't miss! LOL When I was 16 my Aunt and Uncle in Law died and I given his 22 rifle which I loved to shot all through my mid-20s, ended up losing it to a Pawn Shop : ( !!! That is wish I could take back so badly. Then about 9 years ago My Dad and I bought matching Mosin Nagant 1891/30 Russian Military surplus Rifles that fire 7.62 r Nato rounds! His is a 1939 and mine is a 1943, these are the Rifles that the Russians used to Defeat Germany in WWII. These Rifles are so hardcore that I could stop a light armoured vehicle with it. The Steel core 7.62 r Nato rounds can blow right through a half inch of Steel Plate! The cruciform Bayonet is pretty cool too. Then about a year ago after I've have my house broken into several years ago and my Weedeater stolen two years ago and my chainsaw almost stolen and my car broken into and someone trying to break into my backdoor all in the last year and a half, one of those times while I was home watching TV; I decided I needed a handgun to defend myself and my property. My Mosin Nagant  1891/30 is not reasonable to use for self defense because if I ever fired it here in Town the round would probably go through about 6 or 7 of my neighbors houses before it stopped! Other than using the Bayonet, it just wouldn't be safe to fire without probably killing someone else besides the "bad guy" too. So I bought my handgun, a little 25 cal. that I can shoot "bad guys" with if I need to without worrying about hurting/killing any of my innocent neighbours.   

So yeah, I'd say we definitely have a Gun culture and a Hunting culture here in the U.S.. When I was young almost everyone with a Truck had a Gun Rack in the Cab on the Back Window and that was just how it was. You almost NEVER see that anymore though because crime has gotten out of control here in the U.S. and people will just break into a truck and steal the Guns. But 30-25 years ago it wasn't like that and everyone used to have gun racks in their Trucks. 

Here in the U.S. the Crime rate has really gotten out of control and as a consequence more law abiding Citizens than ever are beginning to carry handguns for self defense. The Gun control movement in the U.S. has backfired and law abiding Citizens just don't want to feel like defenseless targets in a Video game when some "Crazy" starts shooting people anymore, Citizens are more and more turning back to carrying guns so they can fight back because hiding under a Desk or whatever just doesn't protect you when someone decides to take their personal problems out on an innocent Society. 

 

  

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lost_shaman
5 hours ago, and then said:

I wasn't aware that Texas was so strict with the second amendment.  In Alabama, unless you are a convicted Felon or domestic abuser, you have the right to open carry in any public location that does not restrict it specifically.  Signs must be posted in said locations.  CCP's are given after a cursory criminal background check.  CCPs can be pulled by police if a person is found to be carrying concealed without that permit on their person but they usually only warn the individual, as mistakes happen to everyone and the cops would rather not cause another individual to open carry and cause them the headache of checking out someone walking about with a sidearm (or rifle) in plain view.  I rarely open carry but if my CCP was pulled I would certainly buy a holster and start.  

In Texas everything you said is exactly the same here in Texas. The only difference is that you have to take a one Day Class and pay a fee for a 'licence to carry'. And if you don't have that 'licence' on you the Police can look it up too and just ask you to carry it with you in the future. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

74E1B1F6-66AB-4E48-9BF5-79878066F318.jpeg.947cbf6d8f950b245ca2720f13bbce40.jpeg

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lost_shaman

SWoH,

That's cute. Ya might not not think it's so cute if you went camping in parts of the U.S. and a Black Bear decided to start stalking you. Then you might want one of your American Friends to be armed. 

Edited by lost_shaman
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Hawken

In the US, if a foreign country sent an invading army to conquer, Not only will it face the US military but Armed Citizens.

Citizens will cause havoc on the invaders. In countries where there government took the peoples guns, the invading

army will sweep across their country with little effort.

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lost_shaman
24 minutes ago, Hawken said:

In the US, if a foreign country sent an invading army to conquer, Not only will it face the US military but Armed Citizens.

Citizens will cause havoc on the invaders. In countries where there government took the peoples guns, the invading

army will sweep across their country with little effort.

That is so true. The U.S., because of its armed citizens, is virtually uninvadable by any conventional Army. 

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