Is Palestine the biggest open-air prison?

[RoofGardener]

3 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Ah, so being 'not a disinterested observer' puts him in the 'anti Israel / pro Palestinian conpiracy theorist' category.....

No. Being anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian makes him "not a disinterested observer". 

3 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

...Also, wouldnt it stand to reason the fact Egypt is exponentially less criticised in regards to the crimes perpetrated against Palestine / the Palestinians follows from the observation they are not and have not occupied, oppressed and mass murdered the Palestinian population over the last odd 70 years? .....

Egypt effectively annexed Gaza and oppressed the 'native' Palestinians for.. what... 19 years ? (1948-1967) OK.. they didn't particularly mass-murder anyone,but then.. neither did Israel. 

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Ah, so being 'not a disinterested observer' puts him in the 'anti Israel / pro Palestinian conpiracy theorist' category. Just like David 'Abdelkader' Cameron I'd presume. Wouldnt that disqualify any and everything you and yours have to say on the subject, based on your own logic wielded here?

Also, wouldnt it stand to reason the fact Egypt is exponentially less criticised in regards to the crimes perpetrated against Palestine / the Palestinians follows from the observation they are not and have not occupied, oppressed and mass murdered the Palestinian population over the last odd 70 years? Just a thought. Some blame befalls them, sure; but it pales in comparison.. obviously. There are two prison guards, where the one stands idle, and the other is actively torturing, terrorizing and mass murdering the prisoners using its position of authority. I guess these sort of 'personalities' are not alien to those that survived the holocaust..

If the Trump deal includes pain for Israel as well as the Palestinians, would you support it?  

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

If it is a prison... is it the fault of the Israelis or the Palestinians? Which side declared war with a host of other nations against the other again? Which one moved legally into the land supported by the other governments of the world?

[Varelse]

15 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You think Palestinians would blend with other cultures. But Jews didn't. They left ME centuries ago and spent these centuries preserving their own religion and culture, apparently ready to go back to their probable ancestral home. Otherwise there would be no interest in resettling in Israel, I guess. 

Why would people of similar genetic makeup (if today's Israelis are indeed of Hebrew descent) react completely the opposite in the same situation? 

Also, in the current climate of hysteric fear from Muslim refugees who won't blend in, it's morbidly amusing to see the suggestion of dissolving a culture that is Muslim among other things, by scattering its people around the world.

 

I don't follow the genetics angle. cultures evolve to determine what's successful and what's not, what blends and what doesn't. As a group, Palestinians have done a good job of p***ing everyone off. But how have jews not blended? They value the same things we do. Life, liberty, peace, love, family, knowledge and personal growth. Their success and contributions show a commitment to get ahead. 

I know a lottery relocation will never happen, i just think it's the best thing that could happen. The alternatives are all worse. It's just where we've arrived.

[Varelse]

19 hours ago, and then said:

You have to admit that it's interesting that the Jewish texts from 3 millennia ago predicted that Jerusalem would be at the center of a global conflict at the "end of days" as they called it.  That city has no inherent wealth.  No oil or precious metals of any kind.  No seaport.  Yet today the entire world has to deal with the conflict that is on the horizon there.  Some say it's a self-fulfilling prediction but they never explain how it is brought about.  Jerusalem will be a burdensome stone, and all who attempt to cast it away will be cut in pieces.   Sounds pretty accurate today.

I understand some patch of land in that region had to be contested. From the stories of Summarrians to the Popes and Ayatollahs, more gods have parted waters and clouds than any other place on earth. It's very easy for leaders on both sides to stoke the fire for personal gain. 

None of my Jewish friends care about the religious angle. They only care about a country their people built out of nothing constantly being threatened. The Christians and Muslim leaders/govts seem to be the big ones benefiting from the conflict. 

[Helen of Annoy]

3 hours ago, Varelse said:

I don't follow the genetics angle. cultures evolve to determine what's successful and what's not, what blends and what doesn't. As a group, Palestinians have done a good job of p***ing everyone off. But how have jews not blended? They value the same things we do. Life, liberty, peace, love, family, knowledge and personal growth. Their success and contributions show a commitment to get ahead. 

I know a lottery relocation will never happen, i just think it's the best thing that could happen. The alternatives are all worse. It's just where we've arrived.

I was never p***ed off by Palestinians. While I'm often p***ed off by people who think Palestinians for some reason do not have the right to live in their own land. 

They weren't resettled there, they are there the whole time and no one sane should care how wonderful values those who want to evict them have or have not. What is that value called, that makes one even suggest forced relocations?      

[Phaeton80]

13 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

If it is a prison... is it the fault of the Israelis or the Palestinians? Which side declared war with a host of other nations against the other again? Which one moved legally into the land supported by the other governments of the world?

Thats a humorously simplified account of history if I ever did see one.

Your attempt to paint the declaration of war against 'Balfour Declaration' Israel as a stand alone unsollicited action, instead of a clearcut re- action to an illegal one sided and extremely partisan Western decision, is a misrepresentation of the truth.

The popular claim that the U.N. “created” Israel is a myth, and Israel’s own claim in its founding document that U.N. Resolution 181 constituted legal authority for Israel’s creation, or otherwise constituted 'recognition' by the U.N. of the 'right' of the Zionist Jews to expropriate for themselves Arab land and deny to the majority Arab population of that land their own right to self- determination, is a patent fraud.

The real progenitors of Israel are Theodore Herzl and Adolf Hitler, the first strived to incite, expand and make use of anti Semitism, the latter answered that call to a tee. The dealings between these two elements, World Zionism and Nazi Germany, was the true catalyst of the Israeli State.. and to a certain degree, it still is to this day. Anti Semitism, historic and present, is one of the main concepts based on which the Zionist State is committing her relentless crimes against humanity unabated, able to play the everlasting victim card while constituting the quintessential military oppressor over a people without an army. Any other nation on this earth would not have been permitted to do what this state has done over more than half a century, none.

 

[Phaeton80]

14 hours ago, and then said:

If the Trump deal includes pain for Israel as well as the Palestinians, would you support it?  

I wouldnt disavow it simply because it would entail 'pain for the Palestinians', no. Concessions would need to be made on both sides of the fence. But it must be a balanced deal nonetheless, where the rights of the Palestinians need to be respected in full, and reperations made for the decades long oppression of these native, Semetic people. Not unlike those of Nazi Germany after their crimes against the European Jewish People.

 

[odas]

On 06/10/2018 at 8:41 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

You think Palestinians would blend with other cultures. But Jews didn't. They left ME centuries ago and spent these centuries preserving their own religion and culture, apparently ready to go back to their probable ancestral home. Otherwise there would be no interest in resettling in Israel, I guess. 

Why would people of similar genetic makeup (if today's Israelis are indeed of Hebrew descent) react completely the opposite in the same situation? 

Also, in the current climate of hysteric fear from Muslim refugees who won't blend in, it's morbidly amusing to see the suggestion of dissolving a culture that is Muslim among other things, by scattering its people around the world.

 

Smart as always, Helen.

And no, todays Israelies have little to do with the original Hebrews. I said that a while ago. Hell, those " new Hebrews" do not even get along with the small minority of the true Jews that never left this area. 

[Varelse]

On 10/7/2018 at 3:36 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

I was never p***ed off by Palestinians. While I'm often p***ed off by people who think Palestinians for some reason do not have the right to live in their own land. 

They weren't resettled there, they are there the whole time and no one sane should care how wonderful values those who want to evict them have or have not. What is that value called, that makes one even suggest forced relocations?      

Sorry, when I said they've p***ed everyone off I didn't mean people that don't matter in this equation like you or me. They joined up with the UK "invaders" in WW1 to help defeat other regional Arabs and their own Govt. It's the only reason Palestine was resurrected and a big reason why many Arabs still hate them. For 300 years before that they were just ordinary Ottomans.  

I used to be on the Palestinians' side. I thought the Jews were mean. But over the last twenty years I've come to see reality. The reset button was hit after WW1 for both Palestinians and Jews and by 1973 the Palestinians lost. Still, fools keep storming the borders and getting smoked. And I only see Israel getting more frustrated. Turkey, Syria, Egypt or Jordan learned to not poke the honey badger pretty quick. Pals must be mental. 

[Helen of Annoy]

14 hours ago, Varelse said:

Sorry, when I said they've p***ed everyone off I didn't mean people that don't matter in this equation like you or me. They joined up with the UK "invaders" in WW1 to help defeat other regional Arabs and their own Govt. It's the only reason Palestine was resurrected and a big reason why many Arabs still hate them. For 300 years before that they were just ordinary Ottomans.  

I used to be on the Palestinians' side. I thought the Jews were mean. But over the last twenty years I've come to see reality. The reset button was hit after WW1 for both Palestinians and Jews and by 1973 the Palestinians lost. Still, fools keep storming the borders and getting smoked. And I only see Israel getting more frustrated. Turkey, Syria, Egypt or Jordan learned to not poke the honey badger pretty quick. Pals must be mental. 

The reality is that Jewish (and those who saw an opportunity in saying they were Jewish) settlers came from somewhere to newly formed Israel. While Palestinians weren't moving anywhere, they were and they are home. Together with actual ME Jews who weren't moving either. And who aren't usually seen in Israeli governments, just like Sephardic Jews aren't.  

It's not a matter who's meaner here, it's very obvious fact that you've got native people and newcomers, many of dubious connection with their alleged ancestral land. Expecting natives to ever accept eviction, for no other reason but because someone else wants their land, is bizarre.   

You can't attempt tossing natives out of their own land and expect it will end up good. It won't.

But people settled, screw it, it's not their fault, and especially not the fault of the new generations who have no other home than Israel.

Either there will be constant effort to achieve compromises, and it obviously must recognize the fact it was Palestinians who were put into situation where they have to suddenly share their land, either there will be attempted open genocide and I don't know which of the possible consequential catastrophes is worse to imagine.  

[TigerBright19]

From what I've been told - Jewish prophecies declare that the Jewish people can only return to the land of Israel after the death of 6 million Jews i.e. the holocaust.  So the legal legitimacy and recognition of the Jewish state of Israel primarily depends on whether you believe that 6 million Jews had died in the holocaust, and if anyone denies that number then they are denying the Jewish people their right to claim that land as their own.  This is were the great division in the middle east primarily rests I think and why many refuse to recognise Israel.  I understand many in the Islamic nations do not accept the 6 million figure, and since the study of the holocaust is universally condemned for some reason and restricted, and in some counties illegal to even dispute the official number of dead, so it is quite understandable that many around the world are sceptic and regard the Jewish state of Israel as an occupation of Palestine.  I could be wrong but I think this is one of the deciding factors in resolving peace in the middle east.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Aaron2016

[Setton]

On 03/10/2018 at 11:26 AM, Aaron2016 said:

UK Labour party's conference last month.  British flags were not allowed.

Source for the bold? Absolutely nothing out there to support that except 'Christians For Israel'. Which is suspect may not be a reliable source. Or have many members attending the Labour conference. 

[+and-then]

16 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

From what I've been told - Jewish prophecies declare that the Jewish people can only return to the land of Israel after the death of 6 million Jews i.e. the holocaust.

I'm very familiar with end-time prophecies and I've never heard of one that mentions the death of 6 million Jews being a prerequisite for Israel being "regathered to the land"  What the scriptures say is that Israel would be scattered among all the nations for her disobedience and idolatry but that in the last days, they would return from all around the world to be resettled in their ancient homeland.  I don't doubt that the Holocaust had something to do with this event occurring.  There are several other prophecies about Israel being attacked and defeating those that come to destroy them.  In one such event, the adversaries are said to be Gog/Russia, Turkey, Iran/Persia, Sudan and several other Muslim states.  The world will see these armies forming and assume Israel is about to be destroyed.  When the smoke clears, 5/6 of all those armies are dead and even the countries they came from are burned with fire.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 10/5/2018 at 6:20 PM, odas said:

That Israel exists is not the issue. Where it exists is not the issue. HOW it was built and maintained is the issue.

Seems like you are blaming the palestinians for the holocoust in every post you make which is absurd. But then, I am getting used to the white supremacy doctrine..lie, lie, kill, lie and bend the truth.

Israel is always right about things. It does as it pleases, and it is always moral authority, beacon of light in the wilderness of it's region. Accordingly, Israel can't do wrong 

Thing is, there are numerous cases which do prove how Israel is in no position to accuse anyone as they are not moral enough. History teach us that.

I can not understand how people so blindly follow Israeli narrative. Especially the US and UK, many people, institutions etc do support and whitewash Israel so hard, even tho there are many cases in which Israel did them harm (for example Lavon Affair). Such absurdity in that relation.

Regarding this topic, Gaza is largest open prison in the world and there are proofs for that. It's factual. Whole Palestine as open air prison? There is a good case to prove that too but since Israel holds large portion of Palestine (which is occupied territory as recognized by majority of worlds nations) it is not made into prison as a whole, just partially. Most recent laws approved by Knesset prove that parts of Palestine are very decent places to live in, for Israeli Jews that is.

 

 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 10/8/2018 at 6:31 PM, odas said:

Smart as always, Helen.

And no, todays Israelies have little to do with the original Hebrews. I said that a while ago. Hell, those " new Hebrews" do not even get along with the small minority of the true Jews that never left this area. 

Nasser once said: ''I can not respect our Jews, they left the land Black and came back White''.

Zionism was described by it's founding father Theodor Herzl as ''something colonial''. That legacy continued forward to Ben Gurion too who had crazy intentions and wild rhetoric.

So, based on Zionists who themselves called Israel as ''something colonial'' it seems to me that Nasser did know what he was saying. And he was correct about it.

Advances in DNA also provide facts to this clear part of history. But let's just stop this, maybe it's starting to be antisemitic? 

[Helen of Annoy]

27 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Nasser once said: ''I can not respect our Jews, they left the land Black and came back White''.

Zionism was described by it's founding father Theodor Herzl as ''something colonial''. That legacy continued forward to Ben Gurion too who had crazy intentions and wild rhetoric.

So, based on Zionists who themselves called Israel as ''something colonial'' it seems to me that Nasser did know what he was saying. And he was correct about it.

Advances in DNA also provide facts to this clear part of history. But let's just stop this, maybe it's starting to be antisemitic? 

I'd only add that supporting aggressive politics in ME is in fact antisemitic, because it can't end well for anyone, Semites of any religion included. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 10/6/2018 at 5:38 PM, RoofGardener said:

Egypt effectively annexed Gaza and oppressed the 'native' Palestinians for.. what... 19 years ? (1948-1967) OK.. they didn't particularly mass-murder anyone,but then.. neither did Israel. 

This happened recently (and is still going on, since February this year). According to Israeli historians, Jewish forces committed 24 massacres from start of civil war until independence. Sources differ about this but generally it's between 10 and 70 massacres by Jewish forces in 1948 war.

So, they actually did mass murder native population and the story goes on, which you can see in headlines today. Check your sources about this claim because it's not true to claim that Israel didn't commit mass murders. It did in both Palestine and in Lebanon.

[RoofGardener]

Gosh.... in 1948 ? When the Palestinian population was complicit in the simultaneous attack by SEVEN foreign nations ? 

Was it THAT 1948 we are talking about ? 

Either way, how does that relate to the current day, and the allegation that the West Bank is an "open prison" ? 

Edited October 10, 2018 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

On 10/8/2018 at 11:31 AM, odas said:

Smart as always, Helen.

And no, todays Israelies have little to do with the original Hebrews. I said that a while ago. Hell, those " new Hebrews" do not even get along with the small minority of the true Jews that never left this area. 

These people are the descendants of Jews that were dispersed into practically every nation on earth.  I guess you think that only some racially pure tribe - that was dhimmi to Muslims, BTW, are the only Jews who have a right to be there.  The thing is, by their own words, the Palestinians want the entire area to be Judenrein.  It's never going to happen but that hatred will lead to near total devastation of that region and the deaths of millions.  And when the smoke clears, a remnant of Jews will still possess the land and their enemies will never threaten them again.  I really hope you live long enough to see this come to pass.

 

4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

This happened recently (and is still going on, since February this year). According to Israeli historians, Jewish forces committed 24 massacres from start of civil war until independence. Sources differ about this but generally it's between 10 and 70 massacres by Jewish forces in 1948 war.

So, they actually did mass murder native population and the story goes on, which you can see in headlines today. Check your sources about this claim because it's not true to claim that Israel didn't commit mass murders. It did in both Palestine and in Lebanon.

There were tit-for-tat atrocities between these two peoples since before Israel proclaimed statehood.  The Jews have a serious attitude about not turning the other cheek.  

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Regarding this topic, Gaza is largest open prison in the world and there are proofs for that.

No, there is only rhetoric to support both sides.  Fortunately, I'm old enough to have watched the situation fall completely apart after the wave of bombings on buses and malls and restaurants that caused Israel to create barriers and limit Palestinian movement into Israel.  The Palestinians want all the land and have said often (to their own people) that one day they will possess all of it and there will be NO JEWS left there.  I actually feel bad for the Palestinian youth because they're brainwashed into believing that Jews are subhuman and that if they fight hard enough, long enough, someday they'll have all the land.  It's the young who die for the ambitions of greedy, sick leaders who earn their living from bloodshed.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

11 hours ago, and then said:

tit-for-tat atrocities

Disproportional atrocities those were, as they are today. While there were quite few Jewish terrorist groups who were attacking everyone, not only native population (King David Hotel is best example, Jews died there too) there was not one single Palestinian terror group in that time, let alone terror act. First terror act committed by non-Jews in ME region was Beirut bombing but that bombing was revolt not the action which would force land theft.

 Were Israelis massacred in Lebanon for you to call it ''tit-for-tat atrocities''?

There is Hamas brigade called Al-Qassam. Named by one brave man who stood for oppressed native population. He had 200 man. Compare that to British and US supported settlers. This was long before 1947-1948 war. Izz ad-Din arrived in Palestine in 1930's from Syria. 30+ years after colonial project has started. 30+ years for first armed resistance. It was stopped by British. Izz ad-Den was murdered.

I referenced to one affair in this topic, again, both British and American citizens were targeted in order to blame Egyptians and make the West, again, help Israel (this time in taking Sinai for good).

11 hours ago, and then said:

These people are the descendants of Jews that were dispersed into practically every nation on earth.  I guess you think that only some racially pure tribe - that was dhimmi to Muslims, BTW, are the only Jews who have a right to be there.

They are not their descendants and genetic research also proves that. But i won't argue about it because i can't beat your ideology and religion and i would feel bad to 'attack' your beliefs.

You see, you are dhimmi to US government. I am dhimmi to my government. When you stop paying taxes and start to live free of charge than you should attack Muslim laws. Dhimmi under Muslim rule was saved from conscription and was free to live his life for thousand years (Christian and Jewish monuments and worship places all across holy land are proof of this claim). 

Why are you apologists of apartheid always using same old debunked myths to wash crimes of political Zionist movement? Can you invent some new stuff maybe? Only new thing was the invention of ADL's notorious antisemitism law which starts to corrupt many places.

11 hours ago, and then said:

No, there is only rhetoric to support both sides. 

As i said, there are proofs. Rhetoric is mostly empty talk. Proofs are factual. You can not debate that which is factual. Was this a joke man?

Best explained in new book of Norman Finkelstein, ''Gaza, An Inquest into it's Martyrdom''. Insert from the link:

''

Gaza, as former British prime minister David Cameron observed, is an “open-air prison.”

''

That is most recent scholarly work, well researched, all documented and based on official and accepted sources, human rights organizations and institutions which whole world accepts as credible. There are numerous of other works.

I base my opinion not solely on this book but on one small library of works which include not only those of Mr. Finkelsten ( who is self hating Jew by Zionist standards, he is forbidden to enter Jewish state which should serve as sanctuary for world Jewry  ). What a sick joke man, what a sick joke. Son of Holocaust survivors forbidden entry to Israel.

Would you be so kind to tell me what made you believe that it's rhetoric which should be used as starting point and reference in such an important subject for discussion?

I do not remember that anyone even bothered to listen to South African government rhetoric in time of Apartheid there. Accordingly, i am really saddened by your claim that rhetoric has any value in determining reality on the ground.

11 hours ago, and then said:

Fortunately, I'm old enough to have watched the situation fall completely apart after the wave of bombings on buses and malls and restaurants that caused Israel to create barriers and limit Palestinian movement into Israel.

Based on your choice of ideology i truly doubt that you have been properly informed. No disrespect, just stating the obvious. Iron Curtain, nice term, i think it should be applied to media coverage from Israel, especially in days without internet.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

12 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Gosh.... in 1948 ? When the Palestinian population was complicit in the simultaneous attack by SEVEN foreign nations ? 

Which 7 nations? You say that as if Israel was attacked by some strong armies. Are you aware that Arab world was exhausted by it's support to Britain to get rid of Ottoman rule. There was no arms better than western and no gun could fight against airplane. Those myths of yours are really starting to bore me.

But no, i was talking about time before proclamation of independence. How did you misread that?

12 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

ither way, how does that relate to the current day, and the allegation that the West Bank is an "open prison" ? 

I did not claim that West Bank is open air prison. Gaza is.

17 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Whole Palestine as open air prison? There is a good case to prove that too but since Israel holds large portion of Palestine (which is occupied territory as recognized by majority of worlds nations) it is not made into prison as a whole, just partially. Most recent laws approved by Knesset prove that parts of Palestine are very decent places to live in, for Israeli Jews that is.

 

[RoofGardener]

55 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Which 7 nations? You say that as if Israel was attacked by some strong armies. Are you aware that Arab world was exhausted by it's support to Britain to get rid of Ottoman rule. There was no arms better than western and no gun could fight against airplane. Those myths of yours are really starting to bore me.

But no, i was talking about time before proclamation of independence. How did you misread that?

I did not claim that West Bank is open air prison. Gaza is.

 

Well then Sir Smoke aLot,

The seven nations where Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Libya, Saudi, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, the Palestinian Irregulars (the Arab Liberation Army) and Morocco. Actually, that's ten. 

Now, you say that the Arab world was "exhausted"... but here's the thing. They had tanks, fighter/bomber aircraft, and artillery. Israel did not. (it stole two Cromwell tanks from the British just before they pulled out, but that was about IT). The Arabs had Spitfires, Hurricanes, and C47 Dakota's rigged as improvised bomber aircraft. The Israeli's had.... nothing. Nothing at ALL. (they later got some Messerschmit's from Checkoslovakia). They went into a war with 9 Arab nations armed with light machine guns and rifles, and faced artillary, armour (tanks and APC's), and fighter/bomber aircraft. 

This is not a myth. This is a FACT. Sorry if its starting to bore you. Perhaps you would prefer cosy comfortable 'interesting' lies instead ?  

As for ".. I was only referring to Gaza".. well, my apologies. I was referring to the thread title, which states that "Palestine"... not Gaza... is an "open air prison". 

[ExpandMyMind]

On 09/10/2018 at 11:06 PM, Aaron2016 said:

From what I've been told - Jewish prophecies declare that the Jewish people can only return to the land of Israel after the death of 6 million Jews i.e. the holocaust.  So the legal legitimacy and recognition of the Jewish state of Israel primarily depends on whether you believe that 6 million Jews had died in the holocaust, and if anyone denies that number then they are denying the Jewish people their right to claim that land as their own.  This is were the great division in the middle east primarily rests I think and why many refuse to recognise Israel.  I understand many in the Islamic nations do not accept the 6 million figure, and since the study of the holocaust is universally condemned for some reason and restricted, and in some counties illegal to even dispute the official number of dead, so it is quite understandable that many around the world are sceptic and regard the Jewish state of Israel as an occupation of Palestine.  I could be wrong but I think this is one of the deciding factors in resolving peace in the middle east.

 

Holy cripes, Batman. After that first sentence, not a single thing you have typed here is true. Okay, I'll give you the illegal part as well, though it's kinda understandable why Germany would have such a law, given the history.

I wonder how our Jewish and evangelical brothers on here reconcile your support for Trump and US Republicans with your obvious anti-Semitism. And as someone who has often been - incorrectly - labelled with that on here, I do not use the term lightly.