Is Palestine the biggest open-air prison?

[+and-then]

17 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Based on your choice of ideology i truly doubt that you have been properly informed. No disrespect, just stating the obvious. Iron Curtain, nice term, i think it should be applied to media coverage from Israel, especially in days without internet.

You have brown eyes, amiright?   

ETA:  Unless you are claiming that the burning wreckage of busses and the blown-out shop fronts were somehow staged for the national media, your point is lame.  It's also insulting and shameless on your part.  Also, there were NO settlements pre-1967.  What was the PLO designed to "liberate" in '64?

Edited October 12, 2018 by and then

[+and-then]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:50 PM, RoofGardener said:

Either way, how does that relate to the current day, and the allegation that the West Bank is an "open prison" ? 

Silly, you have to read between the lines.  I joke with Sir about this sometimes because I don't really disrespect him in general and on some issues we even agree but this topic just isn't one that is conducive to rational debate.  One side will never admit their true feelings that Israel is responsible for all of it and anything, ANYTHING done to Israelis is justified.  They just refuse to answer the questions because they understand that their stance would be seen as unreasonable by average people who have no opinion on the area and its conflicts.  This is why I believe that when Trump's peace initiative is revealed, many of them will ignore it outright or will find major flaws in it even though Israel will HAVE to swallow some pain as well.  I will really be interested to see the plan.  I just hope it doesn't include some phased implementation that is documented to be 7 years.  That kind of implementation is the only thing that makes sense in this situation but I still dread hearing/seeing it in black and white.

Regardless, if the plan is seen as reasonable by the EU and most of the western nations in general, the Palestinians may be forced into appearing to accept less than everything.

[+and-then]

16 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The Israeli's had.... nothing. Nothing at ALL. (they later got some Messerschmit's from Checkoslovakia). They went into a war with 9 Arab nations armed with light machine guns and rifles, and faced artillary, armour (tanks and APC's), and fighter/bomber aircraft. 

That just goes to show you what the proper motivation can achieve  

[kartikg]

Palestine is a black hole, money resources poured into it and nothing good ever comes out of there. 

[TigerBright19]

9 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Holy cripes, Batman. After that first sentence, not a single thing you have typed here is true. Okay, I'll give you the illegal part as well, though it's kinda understandable why Germany would have such a law, given the history.

I wonder how our Jewish and evangelical brothers on here reconcile your support for Trump and US Republicans with your obvious anti-Semitism. And as someone who has often been - incorrectly - labelled with that on here, I do not use the term lightly.

Anti-Semitism?  My step-mother is Jewish and very strict.

 

Extract from:

https://ourjewishagenda.weebly.com/the-shoah.html

'It is because of this prophecy that we have always anticipated that 6 million of our people would perish prior to our being allowed to return to Israel, as can be seen in the numerous references to "six million Jews" made by many of our rabbis and scholars who saw the Shoah (holocaust) coming decades before the prophecy of our return to Israel was fulfilled.'

If the prophecy had not been fulfilled then the Jewish people would not be 'allowed to return to Israel' - hence why people dislike Israel including Jews who do not believe the six million figure and are being forced to.  The prophecy was claimed to have already occurred several times before the war.  It wasn't until the chaos of WW2 and the spread of typhus which wiped out millions across Europe which resulted in a report that 6 million Jews had died became more believable.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369

 

Only until a thorough unbiased investigation has been made will there be a willingness to believe what took place and a genuine acceptance around the world that Israel has a right to exist, rather than letting fear, scepticism and propaganda to dictate and force us what we should believe.

 

 

This guy pretty well sums it up.  He believes the holocaust does not justify the occupation of Palestine (The existence of Israel.)

 

Skip to 0:35

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Aaron2016

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Link with some of the facts about this topic.

Sources are at bottom of the page. Detailed pdf documents too.

We can not deny that, after careful review of the information, Gaza does indeed look like a prison (in many ways). At least that is my opinion after taking everything into account. If someone has good links and arguments in favor of Israel, backed by facts i hope it will be shared here and especially i would like to see some information which can prove that claims here are wrong.

There is nothing of value for this topic if we are not taking proper approach. Subject is ''Gaza as an open air prison''.

Parts from posted link:

In December 2016, dozens of women cancer patients protested in front of the Gaza-based offices of the Palestinian Civil Affairs Committee, against Israel’s policy of denying permits to exit Gaza to continue life-saving treatment. The protest was held in response to a sharp drop in the rate of approved applications to exit Gaza for medical treatment; the World Health Organization reported that the approval rates for the exit of medical patients seeking treatment outside the Strip declined from 92.5% in 2012 to 77.5% in 2015. In October 2016, the rate was as low as 44%. Indeed, during the first half of 2016, Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI), which intervenes to try and secure permits for patients based in Gaza, was only able to overturn 25% of denials for exit permit, down from 62% the previous year. Taken from this LINK

---

The provision of basic services in Gaza remains a key
humanitarian concern. The blockade imposed by Israel
since 2007 and recurrent hostilities have inflicted large-scale
destruction on Gaza’s infrastructure and productive assets
while the Israeli-imposed restrictions on the import of goods
it considers as having a ‘dual’ military and civilian purpose, Taken from this PDF, LINK

I chose these two points but there are numerous other. Does this sound as if someone is setting up terms for civilians in a way which seem to make them into prisoners?

Posted link (first one at top of this post) contains a lot of data, many of which is much more important than quoted part, alto i feel bad while typing this, everything is equally important it's all tied to human suffering.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

8 hours ago, and then said:

Unless you are claiming that the burning wreckage of busses and the blown-out shop fronts were somehow staged for the national media, your point is lame.

It's not about what the media say. It's about what they were not saying. Then there are reports of widely spread propaganda for decades, for example I've seen a lot of stuff as preaching about how ''God will bless those who bless Israel'' (i truly doubt that He had this Israel in mind) and that is partly the reason why i have said that.

8 hours ago, and then said:

It's also insulting and shameless on your part.

That's what you say. Id did not mean to insult you and if i did, somehow, than i am sorry but still, that's your perception. And yeah, shameless in a way that i have no reason to feel shame. And no man, not brown, kinda bicolor  

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, Aaron2016 said:

Anti-Semitism?  My step-mother is Jewish and very strict

Oh, my mistake. There's obviously no way the label could possibly apply to you then. You are free to say and do whatever you want.

Enjoy your free pass. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 hour ago, Aaron2016 said:

Anti-Semitism?  My step-mother is Jewish and very strict.

 

Extract from:

https://ourjewishagenda.weebly.com/the-shoah.html

'It is because of this prophecy that we have always anticipated that 6 million of our people would perish prior to our being allowed to return to Israel, as can be seen in the numerous references to "six million Jews" made by many of our rabbis and scholars who saw the Shoah (holocaust) coming decades before the prophecy of our return to Israel was fulfilled.'

If the prophecy had not been fulfilled then the Jewish people would not be 'allowed to return to Israel' - hence why people dislike Israel including Jews who do not believe the six million figure and are being forced to.  The prophecy was claimed to have already occurred several times before the war.  It wasn't until the chaos of WW2 and the spread of typhus which wiped out millions across Europe which resulted in a report that 6 million Jews had died became more believable.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369

 

Only until a thorough unbiased investigation has been made will there be a willingness to believe what took place and a genuine acceptance around the world that Israel has a right to exist, rather than letting fear, scepticism and propaganda to dictate and force us what we should believe.

 

 

This guy pretty well sums it up.  He believes the holocaust does not justify the occupation of Palestine (The existence of Israel.)

 

Skip to 0:35

 

 

Rouhani and Iran as whole are constantly attacked but there is no reason other than regrets for what West had in British Petrol and Shah era.

I had to reply you just to say that many sites and their speculations about Jews in general are doing more harm to the Palestinian cause that many pro Israel people do. I feel it's better to avoid sites like ''Our Jewish Agenda'' as it doesn't sound legit at all. Anyone can make anything these days and most jerks speak in others name, hidden, promoting hate and wars.

In short, people abuse both Jews and Palestinians because of such speculations. Zionists did many things to get to Palestine, they are still doing all sorts of bad things but can't really blame Holocaust on them or only on them and their greed. Sources which promote those views are mostly those of national supremacists and true antisemites etc. Sorry for off topic reply but be careful with wild speculations, they are mostly worthless. What's important is Resolution 181, for which i do not understand why Palestinian politicians have gave up so easily... 

[Varelse]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:16 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

The reality is that Jewish (and those who saw an opportunity in saying they were Jewish) settlers came from somewhere to newly formed Israel. While Palestinians weren't moving anywhere, they were and they are home. Together with actual ME Jews who weren't moving either. And who aren't usually seen in Israeli governments, just like Sephardic Jews aren't.  

It's not a matter who's meaner here, it's very obvious fact that you've got native people and newcomers, many of dubious connection with their alleged ancestral land. Expecting natives to ever accept eviction, for no other reason but because someone else wants their land, is bizarre.   

You can't attempt tossing natives out of their own land and expect it will end up good. It won't.

But people settled, screw it, it's not their fault, and especially not the fault of the new generations who have no other home than Israel.

Either there will be constant effort to achieve compromises, and it obviously must recognize the fact it was Palestinians who were put into situation where they have to suddenly share their land, either there will be attempted open genocide and I don't know which of the possible consequential catastrophes is worse to imagine.  

There have always been arabs and jews mixed across that land. Always. Palestinians and other Arabs had just as much time and access, if not more, to move and fill in that "super important religious land" with a productive government and society. I now see it as possession is 9/10 of the law. Adverse possession or squatters right's. Both groups of people had equal access to move in and build something the world respects. One did and one didn't. Now one can't accept reality and it's costing the region peace. 

There have been times you could point the shame finger at Israel. Many times. But it's over. If the Palestinians would turn over the terrorists and stop helping them lob rockets, mortars and molotovs they could get their breathing room back.     

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Varelse

[Helen of Annoy]

13 hours ago, Varelse said:

There have always been arabs and jews mixed across that land. Always.

 

Exactly. The fact that they suddenly couldn't coexist anymore indicates someone did something so criminally wrong it managed to destroy the historic balance.

 

 

Palestinians and other Arabs had just as much time and access, if not more, to move and fill in that "super important religious land" with a productive government and society. I now see it as possession is 9/10 of the law. Adverse possession or squatters right's. Both groups of people had equal access to move in and build something the world respects. One did and one didn't. Now one can't accept reality and it's costing the region peace. 

 

So, anyone can declare themselves more civilized than me, by their own standards, seize my land, decide I'm a squatter in my own house I never sold to anyone and if I resist the eviction I'm a terrorist? So it's all right to burn my kids with white phosphorus? I don't think so.

It's never all right to burn civilians with anything, no matter how clever 'excuse' was lawyered for the occasion.

 

 

There have been times you could point the shame finger at Israel. Many times. But it's over. If the Palestinians would turn over the terrorists and stop helping them lob rockets, mortars and molotovs they could get their breathing room back.    

 

Yup, it's so much easier to exterminate the population that doesn't resist, but Palestinians know that too.   

 

 

[+and-then]

58 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Exactly. The fact that they suddenly couldn't coexist anymore indicates someone did something so criminally wrong it managed to destroy the historic balance.

The "historic balance" was called Dhimmitude.  As soon as Jews rejected being second-class (or worse) neighbors, the fight to crush and eject them began.  But it's a fight the Arabs have lost...over and over and over.  If it weren't for their choice of enemy, the Arabs in Palestine would have vanished into history long ago.  They are the longest serving and best cared for welfare case in history so why should they ever seek peace?  The worst thing in the world that could happen to them would be for Israel to disappear.  They'd begin starving in a matter of months because no one would bother with them any longer.  Their leaders should be tried, have all their assets distributed among the poor, then hung for treason and murder of their own.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, and then said:

The "historic balance" was called Dhimmitude.  As soon as Jews rejected being second-class (or worse) neighbors, the fight to crush and eject them began.  But it's a fight the Arabs have lost...over and over and over.  If it weren't for their choice of enemy, the Arabs in Palestine would have vanished into history long ago.  They are the longest serving and best cared for welfare case in history so why should they ever seek peace?  The worst thing in the world that could happen to them would be for Israel to disappear.  They'd begin starving in a matter of months because no one would bother with them any longer.  Their leaders should be tried, have all their assets distributed among the poor, then hung for treason and murder of their own.

Don't you have your own failed leaders to worry about?

And your fantasy about generous Israel feeding lazy Arabs is so morbidly humorous, especially in the light of the fact that there's serious problem with water supply in Gaza. So serious people already started dropping dead. 

This is what you support. Death by dehydration.

 

[+and-then]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Don't you have your own failed leaders to worry about?

And your fantasy about generous Israel feeding lazy Arabs is so morbidly humorous, especially in the light of the fact that there's serious problem with water supply in Gaza. So serious people already started dropping dead. 

This is what you support. Death by dehydration.

 

Hamas controls that territory.  When rockets destroy Israeli homes, pressure is applied until the rockets stop.  These poor waifs have burned millions in Israeli crops and caused the need for a constant military presence on the border since March.  It would all stop and these people get on with more prosperous lives if they would accept the presence of a state FOR THE JEWS next to them in Palestine.  Since they want to act like spoiled children, let them suffer.  If they keep up the attacks that have been going on for months now, they are REALLY going to be miserable.  Netanyahu and Liberman are a gnat's ass away from rolling the tanks into that ****-hole and clearing out the infestation.  Hamas needs to remember that O'Barry isn't there to cover them any longer.

[Helen of Annoy]

14 minutes ago, and then said:

Hamas controls that territory.  When rockets destroy Israeli homes, pressure is applied until the rockets stop.  These poor waifs have burned millions in Israeli crops and caused the need for a constant military presence on the border since March.  It would all stop and these people get on with more prosperous lives if they would accept the presence of a state FOR THE JEWS next to them in Palestine.  Since they want to act like spoiled children, let them suffer.  If they keep up the attacks that have been going on for months now, they are REALLY going to be miserable.  Netanyahu and Liberman are a gnat's ass away from rolling the tanks into that ****-hole and clearing out the infestation.  Hamas needs to remember that O'Barry isn't there to cover them any longer.

Let people suffer, in their own land, since they have no other, because someone else wants their land? Everyone, regardless what they think of politics? 

That's one appalling ideology you've been peddling. Do you ever stop to think how it would feel directed against you? 

[Varelse]

5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Let people suffer, in their own land, since they have no other, because someone else wants their land? Everyone, regardless what they think of politics? 

That's always been as much Israel's argument as Palestine. But no one wants Palestinians as a group to suffer except maybe other Arabs. Very, very few jews hold the same hardline that only those who follow their ancient comic book from the sky can reside on that land or be their friend or neighbor. If you're a peaceful person, you're welcome. The same can't be said for all Muslims. Like my kindergarten teacher Ms. Painter used to say, "Those can't can't get along will just have to get along by themselves in the corner."

[Varelse]

6 hours ago, and then said:

Hamas controls that territory.  When rockets destroy Israeli homes, pressure is applied until the rockets stop.  These poor waifs have burned millions in Israeli crops and caused the need for a constant military presence on the border since March.  It would all stop and these people get on with more prosperous lives if they would accept the presence of a state FOR THE JEWS next to them in Palestine.  Since they want to act like spoiled children, let them suffer.  If they keep up the attacks that have been going on for months now, they are REALLY going to be miserable.  Netanyahu and Liberman are a gnat's ass away from rolling the tanks into that ****-hole and clearing out the infestation.  Hamas needs to remember that O'Barry isn't there to cover them any longer.

I guess the Palestinians will never see they're being used as cannon fodder, drummer boys and wacka-moles by other Islamic governments and wealthy donors to keep this farcical conflict up. They yank the Dhimmi chains of Palestinians anytime they want the dog to bark. They could care less about why they fight too. All that matters to them is they have a way to create mass hysteria, mass distraction and mass market manipulation whenever they want.

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Let people suffer, in their own land, since they have no other, because someone else wants their land? Everyone, regardless what they think of politics? 

That's one appalling ideology you've been peddling. Do you ever stop to think how it would feel directed against you? 

I didn't arrange it, auntie.  The truth is that the Palestinians will never get all the land, regardless of who you or I want to blame.  It just isn't going to happen so what's wrong with pushing them to FINALLY compromise and get a state of their own?  What is so wrong with that when the only rational alternative is their eventual annihilation?

[Helen of Annoy]

14 hours ago, Varelse said:

That's always been as much Israel's argument as Palestine. But no one wants Palestinians as a group to suffer except maybe other Arabs. Very, very few jews hold the same hardline that only those who follow their ancient comic book from the sky can reside on that land or be their friend or neighbor. If you're a peaceful person, you're welcome. The same can't be said for all Muslims. Like my kindergarten teacher Ms. Painter used to say, "Those can't can't get along will just have to get along by themselves in the corner."

Well, peaceful as they are, Israelis have their hardliners chronically in power. Which means either they're on average not as tolerant as we would like to imagine, either they have issues with democratic process. 

I do, however understand why they suffer from general sort of psychosis, but the same mechanism applies to Palestinians too. After all the blood, they are all victims. Which means it will take literal saints in many key places, simultaneously, to actually move things in constructive direction there. 

Advertising Jews as deserving first class while demonising and underestimating Muslims only deepens the conflict and damages the rationality of the assessments. It's not rational to assume Jews are so superior to Arabs they'll manage to not only keep their discriminatory project going on forever, but also expand it to the unrealistically big chunk of the ME.   

Brute force financed with US money is not to be underestimated, but it's not allmighty. Or guaranteed to last for much longer time. 

Since Bibi apparently had no teacher such as Ms. Painter, he and people like him are painting Israel in the corner. With no Plan B that would take into consideration two very important facts: no, there are no naturally superior nations and yes, it can happen that the constant flow of American money dries out.  

[Helen of Annoy]

10 hours ago, and then said:

I didn't arrange it, auntie.  The truth is that the Palestinians will never get all the land, regardless of who you or I want to blame.  It just isn't going to happen so what's wrong with pushing them to FINALLY compromise and get a state of their own?  What is so wrong with that when the only rational alternative is their eventual annihilation?

Your salivating at the thought of genocides is getting on my nerves. 

I'm telling you seriously, you cannot coax Jesus into second coming, no matter how many Jews and Muslims will murder each other. 

And even if an entity claiming to be Jesus does come while we're still alive, it can only be the devil if he's into genocide and ritual oaths instead of simple kindness.   

[odas]

On 11/10/2018 at 9:22 PM, and then said:

You have brown eyes, amiright?   

 

Most certain dead wrong. He is Bosnian and his eye color is most likely blue or green or hazel or a combination like 90% of us have. Again an uneducated statement.

[odas]

On 18/10/2018 at 8:23 PM, Varelse said:

That's always been as much Israel's argument as Palestine. But no one wants Palestinians as a group to suffer except maybe other Arabs. Very, very few jews hold the same hardline that only those who follow their ancient comic book from the sky can reside on that land or be their friend or neighbor. If you're a peaceful person, you're welcome. The same can't be said for all Muslims. Like my kindergarten teacher Ms. Painter used to say, "Those can't can't get along will just have to get along by themselves in the corner."

Why are you equating palestinians with only muslims? Palestinians are also christians, real one unlike the evangees. As a people they were in this area way before the Israelies. Historical fact. Like most of other nations and people they changed religion once or more times but the national core stands. The Hebrews were not always Jews either.

Edited October 24, 2018 by odas