Brexit costing Britain £500m a week

[Electric Scooter]

7 hours ago, RAyMO said:

 I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven.

Not my words but I agree the sentiments expressed by John Major on the 16th of this month

I suspect politics has a shake up coming following Brexit.

Society is going to move to the right demanding the re-industrialisation of Britain, and protectionist policies to protect our new industries. 

[RAyMO]

33 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I suspect politics has a shake up coming following Brexit.

Society is going to move to the right demanding the re-industrialisation of Britain, and protectionist policies to protect our new industries. 

I think you are right re the shakeup. It will not be nice, it will not be smooth. I just read about an interesting IMF report identifying the UK's inherent financial weakness as one of the worst in the western world and suggesting its causes included loosening of financial sector regulation and privatisation. Quite a comment coming from the IMF of all organisations. 

[johncbdg]

Look it was voted on and out won now get on with it except the peoples vote we are not going vote on this again, look in 2008 when we should have taken the hit but no we thought we could pay or print our way out of £4 trillion debt never going happen....

[bee]

 

I think this never ending emphasis on the economy regarding Brexit from Remainers is a bit of a
red herring to draw away from discussion of the sovereignty issue, self determination and taking back control...

This country will weather the economic storm (IF there is one) - and move forward -
As far as I'm concerned the EU is too big and too intrusive politically...  

The majority here voted to get out and not be ruled from Brussels - this included leaving the Single
Market and Customs Union (as stated in writing and delivered to everyone's home) -

Merkel is in trouble politically and Germany has a growing problem with protests - if Germany implodes
in the next 5 - 10 years (or sooner) we will be glad we got out before the S really hit the fan.. 

  

[RAyMO]

2 minutes ago, bee said:

sovereignty issue

Sovereignty lies with parliament - not the public and not ministers - there is not majority in parliament for a no deal brexit - will you accept whatever the sovereign parliament decides when the time comes?

 

[Electric Scooter]

2 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I think you are right re the shakeup. It will not be nice, it will not be smooth. I just read about an interesting IMF report identifying the UK's inherent financial weakness as one of the worst in the western world and suggesting its causes included loosening of financial sector regulation and privatisation. Quite a comment coming from the IMF of all organisations. 

The IMF have consistently failed to get its predictions right about the UK economy over the last 5 years. I think they are biased and when I read stories like this in the Express it makes me question everything they say.

https://www.*** blocked ***/news/uk/821855/Brexit-prediction-economy-George-Osborne-IMF-OECD-wrong

To put it quite simply Brexit does not stop us needing cars, clothes, food, televisions, entertainment, etc, etc. The only negative impact on demand occurs when constant doomsayers make people hold onto their money out of fear over feelings of financial insecurity. Basically we have people saving instead of spending.

Look growth with less than a year to go - https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/ukea

The only real negative impact Brexit will have is more expensive food as thats our major import. But that makes it more profitable for our own farmers and encourages our own farming to up its output. Banking and financial services wont have much negative impact. Why? it takes decades to build up the skilled workforce to offer their services.

[bee]

1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

Sovereignty lies with parliament - not the public and not ministers - there is not majority in parliament for a no deal brexit - will you accept whatever the sovereign parliament decides when the time comes?

 

 

I will only accept what the People were promised and what was voted on... leaving the EU (single market + customs union)

Parliament handed over sovereignty to the People for the vote and now they must take instruction from the result -

 

[Setton]

9 minutes ago, bee said:

 

I will only accept what the People were promised and what was voted on... leaving the EU (single market + customs union)

Parliament handed over sovereignty to the People for the vote and now they must take instruction from the result -

 

The people voted to leave. That is all. The referendum question didn't have specifics.

And before you trot out the tired line that the government sent out literature saying leaving meant leaving the customs union, remember that we elected a different government last year. 

Did their election manifesto say we would definitely leave the customs union and single market? 

As soon as the referendum ended, sovereignty returned to parliament. Just like I thought you wanted..? 

[RAyMO]

3 hours ago, bee said:

Parliament handed over sovereignty to the People for the vote and now they must take instruction from the result -

Actually it didn't. Parliament had the power to make the vote binding - that power was not exercised. Documentation sent out by the government of the day, was the government position it was not the parliaments position.

As @Setton pointed out we have had an election since the referendum, the constitution of parliament is a result of that election and supersedes any implied force of right through a referendum prior to the election.

Manifestos are not legally binding - all that matters is what the 600 odd MPs in the house of parliament decide in the coming months - that is sovereignty being applied as it should be solely with the UK. As you know Parliament is quite capable of reversing any and all legislation passed in this or any previous parliament so the fact that we have a leave date in legislation is also quite meaningless - if the sovereign parliament chooses it to be so.

So while you can argue that economics is a red herring - it can equally be argued that sovereignty is a red herring. In fact the very fact that the UK parliament can unilaterally withdraw from the EU proves that it was sovereign the whole time.

Edited October 17, 2018 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

15 hours ago, RAyMO said:

 I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven.

 

Not my words but I agree the sentiments expressed by John Major on the 16th of this month

John bloody major. Good grief 

4 hours ago, Setton said:

The people voted to leave. That is all. The referendum question didn't have specifics.

And before you trot out the tired line that the government sent out literature saying leaving meant leaving the customs union, remember that we elected a different government last year. 

Did their election manifesto say we would definitely leave the customs union and single market? 

As soon as the referendum ended, sovereignty returned to parliament. Just like I thought you wanted..? 

Neither did the 1975 referendum. 

On the specifics, just as in a general election a referendum is part of the democratic process, democracy is something in which we take part in. Its not something that's done to us by a political class or Govt. so when you take part that means you seek out the specifics you just don't sit their waiting. 

The Govt made its position clear with its leaflet drop to every address in the UK. 

As for manifesto both Labour and conservatives stated they'd respect and up hold the referendum result. The Govt in their leaflet made clear that meant leaving the EU, single market and Customs Union. 

6 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Sovereignty lies with parliament - not the public and not ministers - there is not majority in parliament for a no deal brexit - will you accept whatever the sovereign parliament decides when the time comes?

 

So you believe the people exist to serve parliament?

Or 

Do you believe parliament exists to serve the people?

Think carefully how you answer as you could contradict yourself. 

Also, what is this no deal you talk of? Article 50 as been triggered under the treaty we are leaving. Repealing the 1972 European act. Makes our EU membership null and void. It'll be like it never existed. 

Also this parliamentary vote, the one you hope reverses brexit, you need reminding their not voting to remain or leave or overturn brexit they are simply voting on any future relationship/trade. Accept or decline. So what happens if the EU doesn't offer us a good deal, is our parliamant going to vote No, and then force the EU to offer us a better deal. They can't force the EU to offer us a better deal so what happens then? You think we cancel brexit. 

 

[RAyMO]

1 minute ago, stevewinn said:

Think carefully how you answer as you could contradict yourself. 

I think for better or worse (worse actually) that we have a 1st past the post parliamentary system - and until we have something different we have no choice but to operate within the model we have. Ironically there was a chance to change it to a more democratic model - but I believe that was rejected by referendum.

 

4 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Also this parliamentary vote, the one you hope reverses brexit, you need reminding their not voting to remain or leave or overturn brexit they are simply voting on any future relationship/trade. Accept or decline. So what happens if the EU doesn't offer us a good deal, is our parliamant going to vote No, and then force the EU to offer us a better deal. They can't force the EU to offer us a better deal so what happens then? You think we cancel brexit. 

You forget that it is possible via amendments and other devices to get a binding vote for anything the house desires.

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

I think for better or worse (worse actually) that we have a 1st past the post parliamentary system - and until we have something different we have no choice but to operate within the model we have. Ironically there was a chance to change it to a more democratic model - but I believe that was rejected by referendum.

 

You forget that it is possible via amendments and other devices to get a binding vote for anything the house desires.

I'll ask again as it leads on to my reply. 

So do you believe the people exist to serve parliament?

Or 

Do you believe parliament exists to serve the people?

The referendum result the single biggest mandate in our history. Over one million more people voted leave than remain. The majority of MPs have voted time and time again to pass all the necessary legislation for the UK to leave the EU on 29th March 2019. 

Now you expect those very same MPs are going to undo all what parliament has done. The EU was and never was the status quo,  as such any u-turn by the UK its clear we wouldn't be returning on the terms and conditions. Rebate gone and we'd end up in the euro. You really think parliament would ditch bexit and vote for that. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by stevewinn

[danydandan]

45 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

I'll ask again as it leads on to my reply. 

So do you believe the people exist to serve parliament?

Or 

Do you believe parliament exists to serve the people?

The referendum result the single biggest mandate in our history. Over one million more people voted leave than remain. The majority of MPs have voted time and time again to pass all the necessary legislation for the UK to leave the EU on 29th March 2019. 

Now you expect those very same MPs are going to undo all what parliament has done. The EU was and never was the status quo,  as such any u-turn by the UK its clear we wouldn't be returning on the terms and conditions. Rebate gone and we'd end up in the euro. You really think parliament would ditch bexit and vote for that. 

I can't for the life of me understand why leave vs remain is still being debated.

[hetrodoxly]

 

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

Do you believe parliament exists to serve the people?

Parliament has never existed to serve the people irrespective of how it may have been "sold".

Should it exist to serve the people - yes, should it exist simply to implement the wishes of the majority no.

Majority rule is not democracy.

Edited October 17, 2018 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

27 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Parliament has never existed to serve the people irrespective of how it may have been "sold".

Should it exist to serve the people - yes, should it exist simply to implement the wishes of the majority no.

Majority rule is not democracy.

I thought you lived in the UK. 

[Setton]

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

On the specifics, just as in a general election a referendum is part of the democratic process, democracy is something in which we take part in. Its not something that's done to us by a political class or Govt. so when you take part that means you seek out the specifics you just don't sit their waiting. 

Absolutely, voters should be informed. But the actual question we voted on was remain or leave, nothing else. 

It is down to the government of the day to determine what that entails, which leads to your other point. 

Quote

The Govt made its position clear with its leaflet drop to every address in the UK. 

As for manifesto both Labour and conservatives stated they'd respect and up hold the referendum result. The Govt in their leaflet made clear that meant leaving the EU, single market and Customs Union

Yes, both parties said they would uphold the result (to leave). Cameron's government made it clear they saw that as leaving single market and Customs Union. 

They have since been replaced by the government formed last year. The people elected a party on the promise we would still leave. Their manifesto, as far as I know, did not specify what that entailed. In fact, that government has been very clear they will seek a deal. Just less clear what that deal might be. 

As such, there is no democratic foundation for requiring we leave the two. It is an option but nothing more. 

[bee]

 

Why would anyone want to be fettered to (or promote) a quasi democratic totalitarian super state... ?

Forget all the moving goalposts... and the potential political shame of not implementing the referendum result
which was to leave the EU, the single market and the customs union.. 

If the two main parties won't honour the result the voters will have to take their vote elsewhere to get what was voted for..

It might take a few years... but failure to implement the results of the referendum would cast a long shadow....
and would not be forgiven...
  

Edited October 18, 2018 by bee

[Electric Scooter]

This morning there is talk of Britain staying in the EU past 2020 because May cannot agree a deal.

Time for May to go. The EU has us in a place of financial instability which we cannot end until we get out. Time to hard Brexit and go and replace May while we are at it.

[RoofGardener]

14 hours ago, Setton said:

Absolutely, voters should be informed. But the actual question we voted on was remain or leave, nothing else. 

It is down to the government of the day to determine what that entails, which leads to your other point. 

Yes, both parties said they would uphold the result (to leave). Cameron's government made it clear they saw that as leaving single market and Customs Union. 

They have since been replaced by the government formed last year. The people elected a party on the promise we would still leave. Their manifesto, as far as I know, did not specify what that entailed. In fact, that government has been very clear they will seek a deal. Just less clear what that deal might be. 

As such, there is no democratic foundation for requiring we leave the two. It is an option but nothing more. 

It we remain within the Single Market and the Customs Union, then that means - by implication - that we remain within the European Court of Justice. It also implies (through the Single Market) that we have freedom of movement. 

Put all that together, and we are still in the EU. We wouldn't have left AT ALL !! 

[Setton]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

It we remain within the Single Market and the Customs Union, then that means - by implication - that we remain within the European Court of Justice. It also implies (through the Single Market) that we have freedom of movement. 

Put all that together, and we are still in the EU. We wouldn't have left AT ALL !! 

I actually agree with you in principle. 

But in terms of legality and parliamentary democracy, you are not correct. 

Being in the EU brings everything you listed. It does not follow that having those things makes you a member of the EU. 

[RoofGardener]

32 minutes ago, Setton said:

I actually agree with you in principle. 

But in terms of legality and parliamentary democracy, you are not correct. 

Being in the EU brings everything you listed. It does not follow that having those things makes you a member of the EU. 

True, but in practical terms, remaining within those institutions means that we have NOT - in any meaningful way - left the EU  

[stevewinn]

18 hours ago, Setton said:

Absolutely, voters should be informed. But the actual question we voted on was remain or leave, nothing else. 

It is down to the government of the day to determine what that entails, which leads to your other point. 

Yes, both parties said they would uphold the result (to leave). Cameron's government made it clear they saw that as leaving single market and Customs Union. 

They have since been replaced by the government formed last year. The people elected a party on the promise we would still leave. Their manifesto, as far as I know, did not specify what that entailed. In fact, that government has been very clear they will seek a deal. Just less clear what that deal might be. 

As such, there is no democratic foundation for requiring we leave the two. It is an option but nothing more. 

Parliament overwhelming voted to hold the referendum. 

The Govt of the United Kingdom in 2016 was the Conservative and unionist party. In 2017 it was the Conservative and unionist party, and still today the Govt is the Conservative and unionist party.

I think its pretty clear and we all knew at the time voting leave was exactly that, leaving the EU. Which also meant the single market and Customs Union. That's why the remainers have been kicking up such a fuss ever since. 

 

 

 

[RAyMO]

Just a few quotes from the referendum campaign:

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" Owen Paterson MP

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing"  Nigel Farage

"To Repeat. Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" Daniel Hannan MEP

so anybody who voted after listening to these pro brexit speakers would have every right to believe you can leave the EU and stay in the single market.

 

Oh and not to forget the biggest con of them all "The EU needs a trade deal with us more than we need a trade deal with them". John Moynihan

Edited October 18, 2018 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

@RAyMO no wonder remain lost. While there was a grand campaign your lot were narrowly focused, fixated by a big red bus and left of field quotes. And your a perfect example. It's time to go home.