Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Limitless Science

Why is there anything at all? My solution

188 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

joc
2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I think It would definitely have to be measurable. What has to shown to account for an NDE though is that the brain being coordinated enough to form complicated scenarios that include speech recognition, visual memories, etc etc etc. these are all highly developed and sensitive abilities.

It is measurable.  That is what their research showed...that it was measurable.  

 

2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

If memories are being formed with no brain activity, we are going to have to rethink where these memories are coming from. Random dosnt cut it when we have enough evidence that the content has certain themes. 

I think that is what part of these discussions are all about...rethinking what we thought before...but rethinking them in the light of new research.  Certain themes could be just part of the wakening of an oxygen deficient brain.  

 

2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

We have to be careful too. As per the conversation I have been having with LG. If this happens in humans, it actually fits what could happen if indeed memories from an  outside entity ( a soul perhaps) are being downloaded to a physical brain. This is obviously something that has to happen if an afterlife positive reality is real. I would expect a brief surge of brain activity if this happens

We do have to be careful...not to inject any kind of woo factor into it.  There is no outside entity downloading thoughts into brains.  Why even bring that into the discussion?  If Wal-mart is out of your favorite cookies....well...you cannot buy what someone is not selling.  Nor can you speculate on what the scientific evidence might be if an entity downloaded memories into a physical brain...firstly because, there are no entities downloading memories into physical brains and secondly and most importantly because there are no entities downloading memories into physical brains.

 

 

 

Edited by joc
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
White Crane Feather
1 hour ago, joc said:

It is measurable.  That is what their research showed...that it was measurable.  

 

I think that is what part of these discussions are all about...rethinking what we thought before...but rethinking them in the light of new research.  Certain themes could be just part of the wakening of an oxygen deficient brain.  

 

We do have to be careful...not to inject any kind of woo factor into it.  There is no outside entity downloading thoughts into brains.  Why even bring that into the discussion?  If Wal-mart is out of your favorite cookies....well...you cannot buy what someone is not selling.  Nor can you speculate on what the scientific evidence might be if an entity downloaded memories into a physical brain...firstly because, there are no entities downloading memories into physical brains and secondly and most importantly because there are no entities downloading memories into physical brains.

 

 

 

Wow. Can’t argue with that. Just remember your words “pathetic logic.” ;) I wonder if LG will read this and revisit why he thinks I’m quick  express something we were discussing.

Edited by White Crane Feather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

With reguards to inconsistencies and argunent  that It nullified the validity of annaecdotes.

Depending on what you mean by 'validity', it kinda does nullify it.  If you have two inconsistent anecdotes then at least one of them is wrong.  The determination of which is wrong isn't ultimately 'validated' by more anecdotes, only evidence can reach that level of validity.

2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

The “city”. The tunnel, the life review, the benevolent presence, floating above your yourself and others, etc etc etc. are all themes shared by many many many people. Some who seem to have never been exposed to them culturally. Even if we assume an afterlife negative assumption, the themes, are strikingly and statistically consistent throughout humanity and are recorded early on from cultures with no contact with each other since prior to the last ice age.

I don't find the 'consistency' striking or statistically abnormal, since there is no way to come up with a likelihood for any of this.  There are many many many people who have entirely different experiences, and some of those different experiences are consistent as well.  There are many common dreams, what likelihood have you calculated for so many people having a dream about being naked in public or having a tooth come out?  I've had them both, several times.  The encountering of dead loved ones in NDEs by many different people doesn't really strike me as that unusual given the circumstances, all people throughout history have had to deal with grief and loss which have huge impacts on people's lives, grief just pretty much comes with being human as part of the onboard programming.  We already know that the brain releases chemicals all on its own, if you're injured the brain will automatically release pain-killing chemicals, so what then might the subconscious/autonomous brain do when systems it rely on are breaking down?

2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

And you are right brains do weird things. The problem is that none of this is weird. It’s common enough and thematically consistent enough to warrant more respect than psi balls and magic powers. 

But you seem to be introducing the hidden assumption, "when the brain loses oxygen and a person has a semi-hallucination, we should expect that the content of what they hallucinate is random and unlimited", that seems required for us to be noting that this consistency is not what we should expect.  We don't know that of course, there are common motifs and experiences with psychedelics too, that doesn't make me think that music's true form is visual fractal patterns nor does that idea warrant much respect, even though it's common and unexplained (if you want it to be) experience.

2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Indeed if we don’t know the nature of something, then assuming it’s nature seems kind of premature.

That depends on the word 'know', but I don't know why you are so hung up on assumptions, saying that people who disagree with you are biased is besides the point when there's so little evidence to come to a conclusion.  It could very well be NDEs are because of some kind of soul.  It could also be because of aliens, and I see nothing to privilege the soul explanation over the alien one; in some ways this explanation requires fewer assumptions.  And it definitely could be an unreal experience caused by a traumatized brain... and oh, by the way, we've got lots of evidence of brain trauma causing those.  That evidence is an important point that I don't think gets nearly enough weight in your evaluation.

3 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Even if somone thought they saw Asgard which actually fits some of the themes, it couldn’t be considered a strike against NDEs.

Precisely the problem, and is something that pretty much removes NDEs from any kind of comparison with Einstein and his approach.  There is so little that can be a strike against NDEs, if there are souls and especially if there are other super-powered entities involved, then most everything is consistent with it because we don't really know anything about either of those.  I disagree that "when and if the research shows that the physical brain is capable of doing this under the circumstances of no brain waves and blood pressure, then the argument is over.".  It seems like if the earlier argument that these are strikingly statistically abnormal is really that powerful it shouldn't depend on whether we determine if a brain with no blood pressure can produce these experiences; if we show that a brain with no brain waves and blood flow produces experiences like this then that's still not going to leave you astounded at the striking commonality of them?  Or will you just say like I would, 'I guess that's just the way it works, curious they are so common, maybe we'll find out more info why some day'. 

For me of course I'm a step back, show me first that a brain actually did this with no blood pressure.  Doctors are not scientists, they aren't all trained in proper experimentation techniques and the purposes of a controlled experiment and saving a life are very different.

3 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

It’s through logic that we weed out what is likely or not likely true. This defeats the argument that inconsistencies in content are evidence of that NDEs are purely imaginative. That’s all I was getting at. 

I'd say it's through logic and evidence we weed out what is likely true.  I don't think NDE's are 'purely' imaginative, I just don't think they are representative of any kind of reality any more than dreams are.  And I'm not sure if you are giving enough attention to inconsistencies; if you and I are in the woods and I say 'that creature over there is a Bigfoot' and you say 'that is a bear', does that inconsistency really have zero impact on the idea that it was actually a Bigfoot?  I think it has an impact, primarily because of our knowledge of and the prevalence of bears.  So when someone says 'my NDE was a visit to a real afterlife' and someone else says 'my NDE wasn't a visit to the afterlife', combined with the prevalence of damaged brains producing hallucinations, I think it also has an impact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

As per the conversation I have been having with LG. If this happens in humans, it actually fits what could happen if indeed memories from an  outside entity ( a soul perhaps) are being downloaded to a physical brain.

Everything fits what could happen if memories, and/or thoughts dreams feelings sensations, are downloaded from an outside entity.  Everything fits that this is all a dream I'm having too.  There are lots of hypotheses like that which 'fit' everything, it's showing the hypothesis to be true that is tough.

Quote

 I wonder if LG will read this and revisit why he thinks I’m quick  express something we were discussing.

I haven't followed the full flow of your convo with joc so I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
12 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

Wow. Can’t argue with that. Just remember your words “pathetic logic.” ;)

If I were to ask you what your hand feels like after it had gone to sleep...you would probably say something like, It feels like thousands of needles sticking in my hand.  The vast majority of people would also say the same thing.  So...what can we discern from that?  Easily that, the feeling of tingling is a result of  the blood flowing back into your hand after circulation has been restricted.   What is so hard to understand that similarities in NDE experiences are not something akin to the same thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
1 hour ago, joc said:

What is so hard to understand that similarities in NDE experiences are not something akin to the same thing?

What I meant to convey was that NDE experiences might be something akin to the same thing...just seemed like a stupidly worded sentence.   

Edited by joc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
White Crane Feather
4 hours ago, joc said:

What I meant to convey was that NDE experiences might be something akin to the same thing...just seemed like a stupidly worded sentence.   

Happy thanks giving Joc. I appreciate the stimulation you bring my friend. I just made my nearly world famous guacamole to give to my greater family tomorrow, and this year my boys helped me do it. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
15 hours ago, joc said:

The 'doubts' I have is that there is any conscious activity happening...meaning...that the deceased is  'consciously aware' that they are dead.  In other words, I have doubts that Bob is laying there with no heartbeat or pulse thinking, OMG...I'm freaking dead!  lol

Agreed, I suspect the media embellished quite a bit there to add shock value to the story :tu:

 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
19 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

Happy thanks giving Joc. I appreciate the stimulation you bring my friend. I just made my nearly world famous guacamole to give to my greater family tomorrow, and this year my boys helped me do it. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well...and I made...cookies!  From scratch...4 dozen toll house cookies

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
20 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Sigh... psyche. I’m not going to get into with you anymore than this. Not because I can’t but because its as pointless as talking to a bible thumper ether it’s you or me, but I’ll say this one last thing. Memories cannot be stored biologically without electrical activity in the brain, nor can conciousness exist without it. It’s a simple matter of knowing that nural pathways require energetic reactions to be formed. This is actually what creates the energy signatures we can measure. Brainwave patterns are created by these processes in our neurons. This is all known biology. When you can demonstrate that nural pathways can still be formed and information still be taken in under cardiac arrest and no Brian waves but with some other energetic activity. I will have to concede, as I have with the possibility that it all happens after revival ( which has other huge implications), that it happens in the brain during those time periods. If no energetic reactions can be found that form nural pathways, then we are still stuck on this point. I’ll read into your source to see what precisely the work that is being done. Happy thanksgiving from the US my friend. 

I would suggest Delta Waves. 

The functional significance of delta oscillations in cognitive processing

 

Specifically :

According to Knyazev (2012), functional delta oscillations appear to be implicated in the synchronization of brain activity with autonomic functions, in motivational processes associated with both reward and atavistic defensive mechanisms, in higher emotional involvement, and in cognitive processes related to attention and the detection of motivationally salient stimuli in the environment (Knyazev, 2007; Knyazev et al., 2009). Delta has also been related to behavioral inhibition (Kamarajan et al., 2004; Knyazev, 2007; Putman, 2011).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

@White Crane Feather

 

"Hahah I have heard that before, and it’s nonsense. The vibrational state is not a physical vibration while a Hypnic Jerk is a very physical reaction. You might want to hit the books a little harder. The closest physical symptom that might be relate to the vibrational stage is a change in skin conductivity. This suggests it’s  more of an electrical issue with the skin and the nerves in those alter states of consciousness, but that’s just a guess too. Lots of people like to get creative to try and explain something away. At least you are past disbelieving the vibrational state exists simply because it’s forign to most people’s experiences."

First off I must relay that I have cited the science for the vibration in an older thread as well many rebuttals to your presuppositional assertions for NDE in others. The thing is I'm too busy at the moment to gather it all up, besides psyche rebutted you already (you just do not realise it, and keep doing the same thing every couple of months anyway).

The vibrational state is electrochemical, and is akin to flipping on/off a light switch really really fast. But your mind has to believe it's the soul's disengagement from the body, and, or merging with the astral plane. The jerk is very simular, but it's a hiccup of unconscious movement made conscious. 

I'm not being creative explaining it away. I wasted many years reading books, practicing techniques which would have been time much better spent.

I just came to reality instead of being addicted to make believe. 

"Maybe I did, but I don’t remember talking much about myself in this thread other than identifying with some people’s experiences. I’m happy to engage in a discussion even a debate about the merits of arguments with you, but making this about me is simply an immature round about way of creating adhoms. 

I don’t remember making any claims to be experimented with in this thread. I thought we were discussion NDEs. ;)"

You claim NDE is evidence of counciousnes survival outside the body. Astral Projection is a similar claim which you practice. If I was asking you to prove Vampires exist then your argument would be valid. Looks like you're dodging instead of setting up another thread to conduct the experiment. 

If I could AP like you claim? I would do things like find abducted children for example. You just like to brag about talking to ascended beings that fill you with wisdom which you forget when you wake up (Psssst... You're just dreaming).

"I have made precisely zero assertions that go against evidence or reason. In fact, you seem to be trying to lead the discussion down a path full of fallacy. You might want to check yourself a bit."

No. You're a hand waving Woo Zombie. After being shot up with the facts that you ignore, you regroup, and attack with the same old square peg jammed in a round hole assertions. 

I'm not saying there's no paranormal things. But you have to either form better arguments, and, or admit the evidence the skeptics ask for is lacking. After you try the former only then can you decompartmentalize to reach the latter.

For now on I should respond with:

Where's your Nobel Peace Prize? When do you want to do that AP experiment? 

Then let Psyche, LG, and Joc wipe the floor with your plumage. 

@joc

I assume the fish died? The "as if electrocuted" reaction you described is usually a being attacked response. There's usually spikey spines in the fins of fish that flex out when attacked. This both to appear bigger, and to stab an attacker. This is handy to know when one filets a catfish even when it looks dead.

Also I do not believe in gene encoding is responsible for NDE. It's a culture thing. Once while purposely made to faint (not recommended). I experienced flying over this weird city at night. When I woke I said to my friends "There's light in the city of dark". I later realized it was the dystopian future LA from Bladerunner (an old fave).

Only my subconscious knows why I had that vision.

Imho of course...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
6 hours ago, MERRY DMAS said:

I assume the fish died? The "as if electrocuted" reaction you described is usually a being attacked response. There's usually spikey spines in the fins of fish that flex out when attacked. This both to appear bigger, and to stab an attacker. This is handy to know when one filets a catfish even when it looks dead.

The fish died.  Twice it seems.  But in reality...what appeared to be death wasn't.  The fish had a NDE twice...followed by death. Since I don't have powers to talk to a fish telepathically, it is impossible to know what if any experience he was having in his little fish brain.  

But he is damn sure dead now.  Flushed him!   Literally $25 down the toilet.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS
32 minutes ago, joc said:

The fish died.  Twice it seems.  But in reality...what appeared to be death wasn't.  The fish had a NDE twice...followed by death. Since I don't have powers to talk to a fish telepathically, it is impossible to know what if any experience he was having in his little fish brain.  

But he is damn sure dead now.  Flushed him!   Literally $25 down the toilet.

It's NDE consisted of an optimal habitat which includes no bigger fish that can eat you. :su

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.