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Limitless Science

Why is there anything at all? My solution

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joc
5 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Hahaha no that’s not the only thing it means. When a whole lot of people are haveing the same types of experiences, something is defiantly going on. Now what that is, mind you, is still up for grabs, but to write it off because a personal bias is pretty silly. People dream every night too, but not many people remember them, that dosnt mean they didn’t dream. Now what if 12% of all people had the same exact themes in a particular dream under a particular set of circumstances? Will you still write it off as nothing because of sheer commitment to cynicism? 

 

It's meaningless because ...you are not actually dead, until you are....close but no cigar doesn't count.  

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joc
On 11/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, White Crane Feather said:

There is a simple fact that many people through time have had these experiences with similar themes that come from cultures that are isolated from each other, and the chances of a random quirk producing such consistent themes are pretty slim. 

Honestly........pathetic logic.  Here is what you are saying:  If enough people experience something supernatural...it must be true.  What about Sasquatch?  How many people have made claims of seeing one all over the world for decades and decades?  What about all of those people all over the world who have made claims of being abducted by Aliens?  They all say the same thing...big head...big dark lifeless eyes...cold metal bed they are on...anally probed, etc.  

If you are willing to believe the unbelievable, simply on anecdote...then you have abandoned any real logical thought process about anything...making 'anything' possible.

We are smarter than that.  We don't buy crap just because enough people said the same thing.  Mass Hysteria is not evidence for anything other than the fact that masses just as individuals can become hysterical.  

Baaaaaaa....baaaaaa.....Sherman the Sheep said as he followed the incredible herd of sheep off of the cliff...never realizing the danger until it was too late....baaaaaa....baaaaaaa...baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......

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Habitat

You are a comedy act joc ! Enjoying your work, keep it coming. :tu:

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joc
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You are a comedy act joc ! Enjoying your work, keep it coming. :tu:

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Habitat

.baaaaaa....baaaaaaa...baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......

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Habitat

You are a  " give-up "  joc ?

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joc
7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You are a  " give-up "  joc ?

What I have decided Habitat...is that I am not going to participate in a debate that actually isn't one.  If you have some actual logical thoughts concerning something, that is one thing.  I have no desire to listen to your snide jabs and your insults.  And I am not going to tit for tat with you on that level.  

You can either be civil or I am just going to ignore you altogether....your choice.

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White Crane Feather
22 hours ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

These NDE cases show a common theme based on a person's culture.

It sounds like what the subconscious projects to me.

Next time you OBE, ask one of the residents you often talk to what Psyche101 had for lunch.

Incorrect. Content tends to be cultural. Themes are cross cultural and even through time and distance. Content and context are two different things. :) 

If they exist independent of my mind, I’m not sure how they would know unless they went went to see. ;)

Are we going to make this about me now? 

Edited by White Crane Feather

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White Crane Feather
17 hours ago, joc said:

Honestly........pathetic logic.  Here is what you are saying:  If enough people experience something supernatural...it must be true.  What about Sasquatch?  How many people have made claims of seeing one all over the world for decades and decades?  What about all of those people all over the world who have made claims of being abducted by Aliens?  They all say the same thing...big head...big dark lifeless eyes...cold metal bed they are on...anally probed, etc.  

If you are willing to believe the unbelievable, simply on anecdote...then you have abandoned any real logical thought process about anything...making 'anything' possible.

We are smarter than that.  We don't buy crap just because enough people said the same thing.  Mass Hysteria is not evidence for anything other than the fact that masses just as individuals can become hysterical.  

Baaaaaaa....baaaaaa.....Sherman the Sheep said as he followed the incredible herd of sheep off of the cliff...never realizing the danger until it was too late....baaaaaa....baaaaaaa...baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......

That is absolutely not what I’m saying, and that is far as I read on your post because you are putting words into my mouth. “Plural of anecdote does not make true.” I have continuely expressed there is proof of nothing only evidence. The circumstances are such that it’s highky unlikely that it’s all cultural or an accident. ;)  

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White Crane Feather
18 hours ago, joc said:

It's meaningless because ...you are not actually dead, until you are....close but no cigar doesn't count.  

You are making far to many assumptions trying to hold a strict definition of death.

There is a continuum of concuousnes. Awareness at very heightened levels then deep layers of consciousness. During the dieing process for a lot of people the mind seems to float out of the body. Why? Why not turning into a pop sicle. The truth is that these experiences spanning history and culturs are nearly identicle in themes most prominently   leaving the body. Some cultures even base their entire practice on this fact. 

When it comes to actual death, we can only speculate that at least 12% of those that died experienced some of the NDE themes. 

The bottom line, if we assume there is a soul, we have no idea at what point it decidess to shed the biological body. To hang it on the murky definitions of death is silly. 

 

Edited by White Crane Feather

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White Crane Feather
18 hours ago, Habitat said:

You are a comedy act joc ! Enjoying your work, keep it coming. :tu:

Not at all. He is putting words in my mouth then running with it to tear it down. It’s called a straw man, and his use of it is a classic example. Strange he would call my logic pathetic and burst into a gerivous fallacy directly after. (Shrug). It makes me think he may not know what actual logic is, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he simply isn’t reading carefully. ;) 

 

Edited by White Crane Feather

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joc
2 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

You are making far to many assumptions trying to hold a strict definition of death.

There is a continuum of concuousnes. Awareness at very heightened levels then deep layers of consciousness. During the dieing process for a lot of people the mind seems to float out of the body. Why? Why not turning into a pop sicle. The truth is that these experiences spanning history and culturs are nearly identicle in themes most prominently   leaving the body. Some cultures even base their entire practice on this fact. 

When it comes to actual death, we can only speculate that at least 12% of those that died experienced some of the NDE themes. 

The bottom line, if we assume there is a soul, we have no idea at what point it decidess to shed the biological body. To hang it on the murky definitions of death is silly. 

 

If we assume Sasquatch is real...then he probably lives in the woods somewhere.

I am not assuming there is a soul.  I am saying that there is not.  I am saying that when you die, you are dead.  Dead is not an iffy/wiffy term.  It actually has a meaning.  Dead isn't almost dead.  Dead isn't ...dying.  Dead is what happens after you do actually die.  Your dead.  

There is a continuum of concuousnes. Awareness at very heightened levels then deep layers of consciousness. During the dieing process for a lot of people the mind seems to float out of the body. Why? Why not turning into a pop sicle. The truth is that these experiences spanning history and culturs are nearly identicle in themes most prominently   leaving the body. Some cultures even base their entire practice on this fact. 

...people hallucinate sometimes...

No one who has actually died has ever become 'undead' and told anyone anything...dead men tell no tales.

Have you even bothered to think about what NDE actually stands for?   NEAR DEATH experience.  Nearly dead is not dead.

Go to a graveyard...exhume a body...wake it up and ask it about anything.  

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Davros of Skaro
8 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Incorrect. Content tends to be cultural. Themes are cross cultural and even through time and distance. Content and context are two different things. :) 

If they exist independent of my mind, I’m not sure how they would know unless they went went to see. ;)

Are we going to make this about me now? 

OH! That's so convincing. 

In your mind.

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White Crane Feather
3 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

OH! That's so convincing. 

In your mind.

Hmmmm well it’s the truth, so I don’t know what to tell you dude. 

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White Crane Feather

Yes... when you are making certain kinds of  assertions exploring a topic, you assume you know how it would work if there were a soul. The truth is, if there is a soul, at this point, we wouldn’t know at what point it decides to leave the body. It could very well be while there are still intact neurons.

And absolutely not. There are several different definitions of death. Clinical death, actual death, and then there is dying which can be a process that leads to actual death or is stopped by intervention. Clinical death is when blood pressure is zero, and there is no electrical activity in the brain. Still yet brain death is when the neurons have degraded to the point to where the body is alive, but the person is not coming back. ( even the potential of that has be debated, and there have been instances where they do). Actual death is where the neurons and body are degraded to the point where nothing is comeing back. This is the only definition of being “dead” you are holding yourself to, and it’s quite limited because you are viewing it as a circumstance that can only be viewed in hindsight. The issue is a lot more complicated than that. 

Which brings us to the next issue. Yes people Hulucinate sometimes, but the majority of the time they recognize things for what they are. We couldn’t survive if we didn’t. Any doctor worth his salt will tell you that a person  cannot hullicinate while they have no coordinated neural activity. To have a visual and or audio experience, recognize people, speech, objects ( even if a hullucination) and then store it all to memory requires very complicated nural interactions the build new nural pathways. Non of this happens without coordination and blood pressure. Furthermore, a hullucination requires additional creative centers of the brain to draw on memories and recreate virtual environments. Again all impossible if there is no electrical activity in the brain and probably impossible too even with a few surges here and there. 

Your not prepared to have this conversation Joc. Parroting the same old shallow arguments that fits your bias, and blowing straw men my way accusing me of pathetic logic isn’t going to cut it. I’m no spring chicken phsi kiddie. ;) 

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XenoFish

In all my years of practice I have never seen a real ghost, demon, or angels. I have in fact induced auditory, visual, and tactile hallucinations fueled by my own expectations. Any evocation of the dead I did, was basically a feedback loop between my conscious and subconscious. The people in my life who have died will not be coming back, ever. Dead is dead. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise. I spent years of my life looking for the afterlife, for actually proof. If it were a real thing I'd say so. Astral projection is just a lucid dream, more like a awaking dream really. The "vibrations" are just a subtle hypnic jerk. For once in my life I wish I could have an experience that I could not debunk, something so mindboggling profound that I became a believer. I will never have this. But to some it only require a couple of knocks and they're all in.

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White Crane Feather
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

In all my years of practice I have never seen a real ghost, demon, or angels. I have in fact induced auditory, visual, and tactile hallucinations fueled by my own expectations. Any evocation of the dead I did, was basically a feedback loop between my conscious and subconscious. The people in my life who have died will not be coming back, ever. Dead is dead. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise. I spent years of my life looking for the afterlife, for actually proof. If it were a real thing I'd say so. Astral projection is just a lucid dream, more like a awaking dream really. The "vibrations" are just a subtle hypnic jerk. For once in my life I wish I could have an experience that I could not debunk, something so mindboggling profound that I became a believer. I will never have this. But to some it only require a couple of knocks and they're all in.

Vibrations are most certainly not a version a hypnotic jerk. That is a very physical reaction with solid roots in evolutionary biology. Vibrations are something different. They are not physical they are experiential. And powerful at that. I Appreciate your perspective though.  I also appreciate your willingness to go beyond. Not everyone has that. 

Debunking is one thing but creatively debunking is another. Years ago I once ran a thread on UM where people would tell me story and I would debunk it wether it was true or not. Just like ghosts and demons, Xeno, when you engage in the psychological space of debunking, then you are always going to find what you are looking for. Your self reflective qualities are awesome by the way, I wish more people would take that approach. I appreciate the coldest of logic without the bias. It’s funny how many liklyhoods emerge when all bias thought is dropped. 

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Liquid Gardens
On 11/6/2018 at 10:52 PM, White Crane Feather said:

Roughly 12% of people brought back from clinical death have out of body experiences amoung other experiences that suggest some sort of after life. A random quirk of the brain would not be so specific in theme.

So you assert, is there something to back up that declaration?  Exactly what probability have you computed that a dying brain would result in an OBE, and how?  Lots of people have the dream where they at school in their underwear, what does that specificity then 'suggest'?  You obviously think that this 12% is a large enough group of people to be significant, but that works against you also since if there are that many OBEs sure is strange that we don't have a lot more and better evidence of it.

6 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Any doctor worth his salt will tell you that a person  cannot hullicinate while they have no coordinated neural activity.

Any doctor worth his salt would be focusing on saving the dying person in front of him instead of the clock.  First we need to show that there actually is 'no coordinated neural activity' at the same time as their experience.

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White Crane Feather
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

So you assert, is there something to back up that declaration?  Exactly what probability have you computed that a dying brain would result in an OBE, and how?  Lots of people have the dream where they at school in their underwear, what does that specificity then 'suggest'?  You obviously think that this 12% is a large enough group of people to be significant, but that works against you also since if there are that many OBEs sure is strange that we don't have a lot more and better evidence of it.

Any doctor worth his salt would be focusing on saving the dying person in front of him instead of the clock.  First we need to show that there actually is 'no coordinated neural activity' at the same time as their experience.

You make two good points at the last bit. I wasn’t talking about Er doctors I was talking about nirolgogosts and other doctors that are more research doctors. The other point is the only hole in my arguments. It’s true you can experience a lot more passing of  time in an altered state of conciousness. I am a personal witness to this. It’s entirly possible the whole thing goes down after regaining blood pressure and nural activity. This wouldn’t account for people being able to tell what’s going on during their near death, but it is certainly something to consider. It still a little far fetch to simply say “well that’s it then.” There are other things to contend with. 

Yeah lots of NDE studies demonstrate between 11-12% of people that return from cardiac arrest experience an NDE. They even have standards to be considered to be included as a data point. A good source is the aware study foot notes. There are lots of sources to there to justify even have the study even though uktimatley it was inconclusive because of difficulties finding data points enough to crest a statistical significance.  

We have tons of evidence NDEs happen. Not sure what you are sugesting. 

12% isn’t working against me nor for me. I’m simply stating the facts. 12% is certainly significant by any book. 

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Liquid Gardens
46 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

 This wouldn’t account for people being able to tell what’s going on during their near death, but it is certainly something to consider.

Depends on whether they are 'near death' or 'dead'.  I agree there'd be something to account for if someone can remember what went on while beyond the point of the brain being able to accept input. The problem is there are a lot of variables and unknowns and difficulties involved in measuring all that.

55 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

We have tons of evidence NDEs happen

I don't disagree with that, it is an interesting phenomenon, but I'm not seeing anything that unusual going on that suggest anything other than a physical explanation.  Plus it doesn't seem that there is ever anything that works in the negative with NDEs in the evaluation.  For example, I read what I think was an excerpt from the AWARE study and it was from NDE-er who had seen God who told him it wasn't his time, etc, but he also saw a crystal city with crystal clear waters flowing through it.  Now I think encountering God is fairly common in an NDE but if this is indicative of something real, why isn't everyone seeing this crystal city?  Shouldn't the fact that others didn't see the crystal city cause us to doubt some of these testimonies then?

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Davros of Skaro
11 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Hmmmm well it’s the truth, so I don’t know what to tell you dude. 

You live in a world where what you want to believe is true is true.

You're not alone.

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, Hello Davros Kitty said:

You live in a world where what you want to believe is true is true.

You're not alone.

You live in such a world, but what you want to believe, is the opposite ! Me, I just go with the facts as they present.  My advice to you, interrogate your pressing need to take that position.

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Davros of Skaro
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

You live in such a world, but what you want to believe, is the opposite ! Me, I just go with the facts as they present.  My advice to you, interrogate your pressing need to take that position.

You are so wrong, but that's part for the course with you.

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Habitat
Just now, Hello Davros Kitty said:

You are so wrong, but that's part for the course with you.

You certainly do want to believe "WOO" is just BS, but haven't quite managed to close the deal in your own mind.

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psyche101
21 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Which brings us to the next issue. Yes people Hulucinate sometimes, but the majority of the time they recognize things for what they are. We couldn’t survive if we didn’t. Any doctor worth his salt will tell you that a person  cannot hullicinate while they have no coordinated neural activity. To have a visual and or audio experience, recognize people, speech, objects ( even if a hullucination) and then store it all to memory requires very complicated nural interactions the build new nural pathways. Non of this happens without coordination and blood pressure. Furthermore, a hullucination requires additional creative centers of the brain to draw on memories and recreate virtual environments. Again all impossible if there is no electrical activity in the brain and probably impossible too even with a few surges here and there. 

I'm sure I have mentioned this study before. Whilst the brain shows no activity, it appears to still be gathering information. One might even hear thier own death announcement from a death state whilst consciousness ebbs away. 

LIFE AFTER DEATH: When you die you KNOW you’re dead as consciousness persists - study

When the heart stops the blood supply to the brain is quickly cut off – and in operating theatres this moment would be recorded as the official time of death.

But studies show that the dead person’s mind and consciousness continue to work, at least for a shoirt time – meaning the deceased can recognise their own death.

Indeed there is some evidence to suggest the ‘dead person’ may even hear their own death being announced as they lie on the operating theatre table.

Dr Parnia and his team continue to investigate the pervasiveness of consciousness after death with twin studies in Europe and the United States who have suffered cardiac arrest, in the largest study of its kind.

He said: "In the same way that a group of researchers might be studying the qualitative nature of the human experience of 'love,' for instance, we're trying to understand the exact features that people experience when they go through death, because we understand that this is going to reflect the universal experience we're all going to have when we die.

He added: "We also study the human mind and consciousness in the context of death, to understand whether consciousness becomes annihilated or whether it continues after you've died for some period of time — and how that relates to what's happening inside the brain in real time.

"And the evidence reveals that people whose heart stopped and then restarted – usually on the operating table – could describe exactly what had been happening around them.

"The new research is an extension of these findings."

 

As he states, we all die, we all have the same reflexes, we are going to have a commonality at death. 

The main advantage of this research is transplant organs. When you die about 1,000 genes kick in and go into overdrive trying to repair a dead body, which they will inevitably fail at. In this activity, cancer genes also kick in, which is not a good thing. There appears to be a strong connection to the statistics that show people who receive organ transplants from dead donors are much more likely to develop cancer than those who receive them from live donors. 

Thing is, all sorts of things fire up at death, and even without brain activity conciousness persists, ebbing away at a far slower rate than brain activity would indicate. 

All this enlightens more aspects about the death process, which is opening doors into understanding the natural processes that have offered popularity to afterlife myths. 

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