Met Chief saw Westminster attack from car

[Setton]

Just now, aztek said:

absolutely, anything would be better than doing nothing. and yes i absolutely accuse him of being a coward, all 3 of them,

Ah but he didn't do 'nothing'. He carried out his responsibility, coordinating the response. 

What would you have done? 

You also say there are plenty of ways the 3 police officers could stop an attacker with a knife. Please, give us the benefit of your martial wisdom and enlighten us. 

[Setton]

3 minutes ago, aztek said:

lamo, what a idiotic argument of a desperate kid who defends a coward,  no it  is nothing like that.

How is it different then? Genuine question. 

P. S. The insults are getting a little tired, can you work on some new material? 

Quote

no, i'm not knocking off anything, I stand by my opinion

It says 'kick off' not knock...

[aztek]

i thought i could not possibly have lower opinion of you, yet you showed me opposite, congrats, you exceeded my expectations, lol

Edited October 10, 2018 by aztek

[Setton]

3 minutes ago, aztek said:

i thought i could not possibly have lower opinion of you, yet you showed me opposite, congrats, you exceeded my expectations, lol

Still not answering the questions... 

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, Eldorado said:

tyre iron from the boot

You've been watching to many films, do you still have innertubes.

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

i thought i could not possibly have lower opinion of you, yet you showed me opposite, congrats, you exceeded my expectations, lol

Well, we try Aztek, we try. 

You are being a complete and utter buffoon in this particular thread. Clearly, you would like the three police officers in the car - in their shirtsleeves - to have leaped  out of the car, pull out their (nonexistent) weapons, and gun down everybody in sight. I'm guessing that's what the American police would have done.. with specific reference to any black people who where randomly present (according to the BLM movement, anyway). 

In the UK, we have a PROFESSIONAL police force. The people in the car - regardless of their rank - where irrelevant. The ARG where already on the scene. They took the Muslim down. How could the three shirt-sleeved people in the car have made any difference ? 

You see, it's about THINKING. 

You may want to give it a try sometime ? 

Oh.. and you may want to encourage the US Police Forces to try the same thing before they pull their guns out and randomly spray bullets around, as they seem so OFTEN to do ? 

[RoofGardener]

22 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

You've been watching to many films, do you still have innertubes.

That's a DAMNED impertinent - and personal - question !!

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by RoofGardener

[aztek]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, we try Aztek, we try. 

You are being a complete and utter buffoon in this particular thread. Clearly, you would like the three police officers in the car - in their shirtsleeves - to have leaped  out of the car, pull out their (nonexistent) weapons, and gun down everybody in sight. I'm guessing that's what the American police would have done.. with specific reference to any black people who where randomly present (according to the BLM movement, anyway). 

In the UK, we have a PROFESSIONAL police force. The people in the car - regardless of their rank - where irrelevant. The ARG where already on the scene. They took the Muslim down. How could the three shirt-sleeved people in the car have made any difference ? 

 

ok you win,  i did miss the fact that armed cops where right there outside the car, at that very moment , shooting at the guy. if that happened exactly like that, then i agree, i was very wrong.  

but if armed cops were no where in sight at the moment, and they just watched him kill the cop and get away, to be taken care of later by armed cops. then disregard the line above

Quote

Oh.. and you may want to encourage the US Police Forces to try the same thing before they pull their guns out and randomly spray bullets around, as they seem so OFTEN to do ? 

no disagreements here,

Edited October 10, 2018 by aztek

[Setton]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, we try Aztek, we try. 

You are being a complete and utter buffoon in this particular thread. Clearly, you would like the three police officers in the car - in their shirtsleeves - to have leaped  out of the car, pull out their (nonexistent) weapons, and gun down everybody in sight. I'm guessing that's what the American police would have done.. with specific reference to any black people who where randomly present (according to the BLM movement, anyway). 

In the UK, we have a PROFESSIONAL police force. The people in the car - regardless of their rank - where irrelevant. The ARG where already on the scene. They took the Muslim down. How could the three shirt-sleeved people in the car have made any difference ? 

You see, it's about THINKING. 

You may want to give it a try sometime ? 

Oh.. and you may want to encourage the US Police Forces to try the same thing before they pull their guns out and randomly spray bullets around, as they seem so OFTEN to do ? 

Nicely put. 

6 minutes ago, aztek said:

ok you win,  i did miss the fact that armed cops where right there outside the car, at that very moment , shooting at the guy. if that happened exactly like that, then i agree, i was very wrong.  

Just when you think you're witnessing personal growth and then... 

Quote

but if armed cops were no where in sight at the moment, and they just watched him kill the cop and get away, to be taken care of later by armed cops. than disregard the line above

... normal service resumes. 

Fancy answering any of those questions yet aztek or is it time for another disappearing act? 

[aztek]

7 minutes ago, Setton said:

Nicely put. 

Just when you think you're witnessing personal growth and then... 

... normal service resumes. 

Fancy answering any of those questions yet aztek or is it time for another disappearing act? 

i'm right here buddy.

another disappearing act? yea, it's called having a life, lol,  you know do other things,  go other places, lol, away from computer\forum, without thinking about computer\forum,   i should be doing more of them, if anything.

Edited October 10, 2018 by aztek

[Duke Wellington]

5 hours ago, aztek said:

yea yea , keep justifying it, "he did the right, things",  3 cops sitting in their car scared watching while 4th is getting stabbed.  and do nothing,  uneffing believable,

and it comes from same people that tell Americans we do not need guns to protect ourselves from criminals with guns, we should learn martial arts and use a stick, or whatever is handy.  

In the UK you are allowed to own a shotgun or hunting rifle.

The logic behind that decision is if you snap you dont have a full magazine to empty into a crowd of people. Unfortunately, shotguns and rifles are also too cumbersome to be carried around by the general public. So its time we had a new type of firearm which would be pistols that dont have magazines and which you can only load two rounds in at a time. If Londoners buy them then they can shoot crazed Muslim terrorists too helping their fellow citizens reduce the loss of life!

I also think all police on duty or visiting high profile terrorism targets should automatically be armed. 

[aztek]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

So its time we had a new type of firearm which would be pistols that dont have magazines and which you can only load two rounds in at a time.

we have them since 1850s, called derringer.  we also have 4 barrel derringer.  

Quote

I also think all police on duty or visiting high profile terrorism targets should automatically be armed. 

i think police should always be armed, even in their sleep,   and so should every free citizen,  and both should equally be responsible for its use.

Edited October 10, 2018 by aztek

[Setton]

9 hours ago, aztek said:

i'm right here buddy.

another disappearing act? yea, it's called having a life, lol,  you know do other things,  go other places, lol, away from computer\forum, without thinking about computer\forum,   i should be doing more of them, if anything.

So, you going to answer any of those questions then? 

[RoofGardener]

9 hours ago, aztek said:

we have them since 1850s, called derringer.  we also have 4 barrel derringer.  

i think police should always be armed, even in their sleep,   and so should every free citizen,  and both should equally be responsible for its use.

You are Robert Heinlein, and I claim my prize  

[MissJatti]

On 10/10/2018 at 11:18 AM, Setton said:

He did exactly what he should have done. 

Did you read the article? He didn't have any equipment with him. If he'd run out, all that would be different is we'd have two dead officers instead. 

It might-Could have made a difference. It could have stopped the terrorists, and he could second guessed, that what he was going is not good.

[hetrodoxly]

19 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

That's a DAMNED impertinent - and personal - question !!

 

I know but sometime you just have to ask

[Setton]

2 hours ago, MissJatti said:

It might-Could have made a difference. It could have stopped the terrorists, and he could second guessed, that what he was going is not good.

How? 

[Susanc241]

I really don’t know why I am opening myself up to a possible negative response,  but my understanding is that Craig was in shirtsleeves with two CIVILIANS being driven out of the area and by the time they realised what was happening as they passed the scene PC Palmer had already been stabbed, then the  attacker was shot dead within seconds of that.  All this took place in a VERY short space of time.  Craig admits he tried to leave the car but was prevented by a uniformed police offer at the scene who insisted they lock the car doors.  Craig did not sit on his hands watching events unfold in a leisurely fashion in the way Aztek seems to imagine.

At the end of the day, none of us was there, and none of knows how we would perform in any similar situation.  We may think we know but we don’t and won’t until we are so tested.  Only today the Queen presented the George Cross posthumously to a Spanish man who tried to help by using his skateboard (as a weapon) against terrorists in an earlier London attack.  He died.  I am sure his family would have preferred he stood back and kept himself safe, even if they are also very proud of him.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Susanc241 said:

I really don’t know why I am opening myself up to a possible negative response,  but my understanding is that Craig was in shirtsleeves with two CIVILIANS being driven out of the area and by the time they realised what was happening as they passed the scene PC Palmer had already been stabbed, then the  attacker was shot dead within seconds of that.  All this took place in a VERY short space of time.  Craig admits he tried to leave the car but was prevented by a uniformed police offer at the scene who insisted they lock the car doors.  Craig did not sit on his hands watching events unfold in a leisurely fashion in the way Aztek seems to imagine.

At the end of the day, none of us was there, and none of knows how we would perform in any similar situation.  We may think we know but we don’t and won’t until we are so tested.  Only today the Queen presented the George Cross posthumously to a Spanish man who tried to help by using his skateboard (as a weapon) against terrorists in an earlier London attack.  He died.  I am sure his family would have preferred he stood back and kept himself safe, even if they are also very proud of him.

Good points, @Susanc241

['Walt' E. Kurtz]

I dont know much about the incident but i know this in knife attacks it's not common that you even see the knife or even realize that you've been attacked and stabbed. The damage a knife can do is unbelievable and the chance of survival is very slim. If you see someone with a knife get to safety and call the police ps I rather get shot than stabbed.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Avalanche

[ExpandMyMind]

On 10/10/2018 at 12:58 PM, Eldorado said:

I'd have got out of the car and if there was nothing else handy, got myself a tyre iron from the boot and ran toward the animal stabbing the police officer screaming like a banshee.

Three people versus a guy with knives is good odds.  I'd even back just myself wiith a tyre iron or similar.  You don't just sit and watch.  That's cowardice.

I have to agree with this. I've heard plenty of stories of police taking on people armed with knives. It's exactly what they're trained to do. In Glasgow at least

[Setton]

8 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I have to agree with this. I've heard plenty of stories of police taking on people armed with knives. It's exactly what they're trained to do. In Glasgow at least

Not without any protective equipment it's not. 

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Not without any protective equipment it's not. 

Actually, it is. They're trained to take down people who are armed with weapons without being stabbed. The instructor doesn't say 'this angle's okay because they'll just get you in the vest'. They operate under the assumption that there is no vest.

Not to mention stab-proof vests didn't exist when I was growing up. And there are whole sections of plain clothes officers that don't use them today.

When members of the public can stand up to attackers like these, there really are very few excuses for people trained and paid to do exactly that.

 

['Walt' E. Kurtz]

4 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Actually, it is. They're trained to take down people who are armed with weapons without being stabbed. The instructor doesn't say 'this angle's okay because they'll just get you in the vest'. They operate under the assumption that there is no vest.

Not to mention stab-proof vests didn't exist when I was growing up. And there are whole sections of plain clothes officers that don't use them today.

When members of the public can stand up to attackers like these, there really are very few excuses for people trained and paid to do exactly that.

 

I practise Krav Maga and we practise defense against knife attacks. it's really difficult to defend yourself against an attack without getting injured or killed and attacks can last for several minutes. Even if you're armed it's dufficult , you need to keep a safe distance which is 8 metres and in most cases you dont even see the knife.  I have practised km for seven years and i do believe that if you practise defense against attacks that you might have a little better chance of defending yourself. Note the pros even find it difficult. 

[ExpandMyMind]

44 minutes ago, Avalanche said:

I practise Krav Maga and we practise defense against knife attacks. it's really difficult to defend yourself against an attack without getting injured or killed and attacks can last for several minutes. Even if you're armed it's dufficult , you need to keep a safe distance which is 8 metres and in most cases you dont even see the knife.  I have practised km for seven years and i do believe that if you practise defense against attacks that you might have a little better chance of defending yourself. Note the pros even find it difficult. 

Can't really argue with any of this. But it still doesn't dispute my point or change my mind. 

Police in the UK have been going up against people with knives since long before I was born. It's very dangerous but it's exactly the sort of thing they sign up for.