Abortion is like "hiring a hitman" says Pope

[darkmoonlady]

2 hours ago, joc said:

What you are really saying here is that most abortions...had the children come to full term, would have bad lives filled with neglect and abuse.  

But we already have laws about neglecting and abusing children...so what's your point?  And how do you know...what crystal ball are you looking at?  Do you actually know most women who have abortions...are all of their stories the same?  

Is it okay to kill your 5 year old kid?  

Ok if you could save a five week old embryo vs a five year old who would you save? We can play semantics all day and you know as well as I do I don't want a five year old harmed. 

If an abortion ban goes into effect where do you think those unwanted children created from it will go? Is there some magical transport that puts them into a womb of someone with a better paying job or in a perfect relationship with a father and a house and everything is sunshine and roses?

Or is it highly likely women who choose to terminate if they actually dont want kids or aren't financially or mentally stable to be responsible for this offspring they did not want are suddenly going to all make more money, be transported out of bad situations? Overwhelmingly no. Are you personally going to take on foster kids? If so great. If not why are you ( or anyone else) a better judge of what someone is capable of being responsible for? Foster parents who are anti choice I dont take issue with at least they're trying to help. For the rest of people who are anti choice you are pro birth not pro life. You want to make women carry but not help them after, or pay more taxes to the state to support these unwanted kids? 

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Ok if you could save a five week old embryo vs a five year old who would you save? We can play semantics all day and you know as well as I do I don't want a five year old harmed. 

If an abortion ban goes into effect where do you think those unwanted children created from it will go? Is there some magical transport that puts them into a womb of someone with a better paying job or in a perfect relationship with a father and a house and everything is sunshine and roses?

Or is it highly likely women who choose to terminate if they actually dont want kids or aren't financially or mentally stable to be responsible for this offspring they did not want are suddenly going to all make more money, be transported out of bad situations? Overwhelmingly no. Are you personally going to take on foster kids? If so great. If not why are you ( or anyone else) a better judge of what someone is capable of being responsible for? Foster parents who are anti choice I dont take issue with at least they're trying to help. For the rest of people who are anti choice you are pro birth not pro life. You want to make women carry but not help them after, or pay more taxes to the state to support these unwanted kids? 

Some are advocating abortions post-birth.  So, the reason for asking if it's okay to kill a 5 year old is really a logical exercise I came up with.

It goes like this:

You say it isn't okay to kill a 5 year old.  What about a 5 month old?  I'm sure your response is the same.  Woman X wanted a late term abortion but despite her efforts the baby is born anyway.  Is it okay to still abort a new born?  If yes then...how long does a newborn baby who's mother is talking about it's abortion with her doctors have?  5 minutes?  5 hours?  5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months?  5 years?

If no...it is not okay to abort the newborn baby...then...Is it okay to abort at nine months but pre-birth?  If not then...the question is...where in the timeline of the pregnancy is it okay to abort?  20 weeks?  30 weeks? 

Back to the 5 year old...  No one asked the 5 year old if it wanted to be born.  The 5 year old is not a producer of anything society needs.  

The end logic says that...Either the mother has the right to abort her baby up and until the time it is 18 years of age...or...human life begins at conception and the mother has no right to abort that which is already in process.  

[darkmoonlady]

31 minutes ago, joc said:

Some are advocating abortions post-birth.  So, the reason for asking if it's okay to kill a 5 year old is really a logical exercise I came up with.

It goes like this:

You say it isn't okay to kill a 5 year old.  What about a 5 month old?  I'm sure your response is the same.  Woman X wanted a late term abortion but despite her efforts the baby is born anyway.  Is it okay to still abort a new born?  If yes then...how long does a newborn baby who's mother is talking about it's abortion with her doctors have?  5 minutes?  5 hours?  5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months?  5 years?

If no...it is not okay to abort the newborn baby...then...Is it okay to abort at nine months but pre-birth?  If not then...the question is...where in the timeline of the pregnancy is it okay to abort?  20 weeks?  30 weeks? 

Back to the 5 year old...  No one asked the 5 year old if it wanted to be born.  The 5 year old is not a producer of anything society needs.  

The end logic says that...Either the mother has the right to abort her baby up and until the time it is 18 years of age...or...human life begins at conception and the mother has no right to abort that which is already in process.  

No one is aborting right before birth and no one is committing infanticide. It's a conspiracy theory. 

[Will Due]

On 10/13/2018 at 8:49 AM, Hammerclaw said:

Men don't give much thought to procreation in the act. Driven as they are by lust, they are often careless of their seed and where it may fall. The consequence's of a moment's pleasure is the furthest thing from their minds. A man can leave on the morrow and never be seen again, but the woman must deal with what he has wrought. 

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree. But in a faithful, loyal marriage this isn't the case. Abortion is not usually experienced by married woman.

I've come to learn from the women in my life that experiencing an abortion is perhaps the most difficult and impactful thing a woman can ever go through, next to rape.

So no matter how men may have their opinions about what's right or wrong about abortion, in the end it's a women's personal decision to have one or not, and not a man's. And since abortion has been practiced even in very primitive times, it's likely that it will always be an option in the future under certain circumstances, regardless of how it's legislated.

As it's been pointed out, pro-birth isn't necessarily pro-life. But likewise, neither is anti-birth necessarily anti-life. All pregnancies are the result of the acts of both a woman and a man. And perhaps the proper resolution is too.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Will Due

[+Hammerclaw]

20 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree. But in a faithful, loyal marriage this isn't the case. Abortion is not usually experienced by married woman.

I've come to learn from the women in my life that experiencing an abortion is perhaps the most difficult and impactful thing a woman can ever go through, next to rape.

So no matter how men may have their opinions about what's right or wrong about abortion, in the end it's a women's personal decision to have one or not, and not a man's. And since abortion has been practiced even in very primitive times, it's likely that it will always be an option in the future under certain circumstances, regardless of how it's legislated.

As it's been pointed out, pro-birth isn't necessarily pro-life. But likewise, neither is anti-birth necessarily anti-life. All pregnancies are the result of the acts of both a woman and a man. And perhaps the proper resolution is too.

 

 

I'm pro woman and their right to manage their own body.  Antiabortion laws won't stop abortion, it will only stop safe ones.

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'm pro woman and their right to manage their own body.  Antiabortion laws won't stop abortion, it will only stop safe ones.

 

I'm pro-woman and pro-man.

Abortion, safe or not, won't be necessary when each takes the responsibility for their acts.

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

I'm pro-woman and pro-man.

Abortion, safe or not, won't be necessary when each takes the responsibility for their acts.

 

 

Woman are taking responsibility and acting on it. It's men getting all sanctimonious and throwing hissy fits. If a man wanted to use a woman's body to make babies, he should have asked, real nice like, first and put a ring on it, if she'd let him.

[Will Due]

25 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Woman are taking responsibility and acting on it. It's men getting all sanctimonious and throwing hissy fits. If a man wanted to use a woman's body to make babies, he should have asked, real nice like, first and put a ring on it, if she'd let him.

 

If she wouldn't let a man put a ring on it, then she shouldn't have been irresponsible with her baby's father.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Will Due

[+joc]

7 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

No one is aborting right before birth and no one is committing infanticide. It's a conspiracy theory. 

Right! There is a conspiracy...to cover up, delete facts...and the conspiracy is by the Global Leftist Media...of which you readily absorb no doubt.

Have you ever seen this video? 

what do you think?  

They are talking about harvesting viable organs from a late term, partial birth of a human being...listen:

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by joc

[+Hammerclaw]

9 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

If she wouldn't let a man put a ring on it, then she shouldn't have been irresponsible with her baby's father.

 

 

And he should have kept his pecker in his pants, if you're going to go all Victorian prude about it.

[+Desertrat56]

13 hours ago, joc said:

Some are advocating abortions post-birth.  So, the reason for asking if it's okay to kill a 5 year old is really a logical exercise I came up with.

Wait!! How exactly does that work?  Do you understand what you are saying?  Post birth means it Can Not be an abortion!!!  So it is not part of the conversation, it is either something you made up or some dumbass trolled you about to get you upset.   Do you even know how to think or what the word "abortion" and the prefix "post" mean?

[+joc]

2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Wait!! How exactly does that work?  Do you understand what you are saying?  Post birth means it Can Not be an abortion!!!  So it is not part of the conversation, it is either something you made up or some dumbass trolled you about to get you upset.   Do you even know how to think or what the word "abortion" and the prefix "post" mean?

Did you watch the video?  Clearly she is talking about crushing the babies head or limbs below the vital organs so that the organs can be harvested and sold. 

Several abortionists are in prison for having performed POST birth abortions...that is...stabbing the infant in the neck with a pair of scissors before the whole body comes out.  

 

[+joc]

A human baby is not the mother's body...the mother's body is the host body...but it shouldn't mean that the life therein can be terminated by the mother...that is a stupid argument imo...where would we be if Einstein had been aborted?

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Did you watch the video?  Clearly she is talking about crushing the babies head or limbs below the vital organs so that the organs can be harvested and sold. 

Several abortionists are in prison for having performed POST birth abortions...that is...stabbing the infant in the neck with a pair of scissors before the whole body comes out.  

 

No, I did not watch the video, obviously.  That is NOT abortion, that is murder.   Anyone who claims it is abortion is crazy or trying to get away with murder.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Desertrat56

[+joc]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

That is NOT abortion, that is murder. 

At what point during the pregnancy is terminating the life NOT murder?

[+Desertrat56]

7 minutes ago, joc said:

A human baby is not the mother's body...the mother's body is the host body...but it shouldn't mean that the life therein can be terminated by the mother...that is a stupid argument imo...where would we be if Einstein had been aborted?

How many  unwanted children have you fostered or adopted?  You are a man sitting in a tower making decisions for people you know nothing about. 

So, would you chastise someone who was "host" to a parasite for killing the parasite?  It's a life, just like you and I are.  You cannot use semantics to justify your position.  A mother's body is hers until the baby is born, that baby is dependent on her and if there is a reason she cannot have that baby, would you have the resources to put the fetus in some kind of gestation equipment and then raise is your own?  Of course not, you only care about controlling women, not about the children who will be born if you have your way.  The laws include a cutoff period for abortion.

It's fine to have lofty morals but some of us have to live in the real world and in the real world you cannot make life changing decisions for anyone else.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Desertrat56

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, joc said:

At what point during the pregnancy is terminating the life NOT murder?

Everyone has a different answer for that which makes the legislation more difficult.

[+Desertrat56]

7 hours ago, joc said:

Right! There is a conspiracy...to cover up, delete facts...and the conspiracy is by the Global Leftist Media...of which you readily absorb no doubt.

You invalidated any argument you have about this with that statement.  If the "Global Leftist Media" was coving anything up the "Isolationist Righwing Media" would be reporting it.  This is not about "Left" and "Right".  It is about women's rights to make their own decisions about their families and their bodies.

[openozy]

The Pope probably does know what its like to hire a hitman.I'll guarantee they have"silenced" many people abused by his henchmen and swept them under the carpet (all in the name of God).Why anybody gives this nobody a say in anything to do with human rights or anything else for that matter is beyond me.

[+joc]

19 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

How many  unwanted children have you fostered or adopted?  You are a man sitting in a tower making decisions for people you know nothing about. 

None.  It is a moot point.  Has absolutely nothing to do with views regarding abortion.

19 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

So, would you chastise someone who was "host" to a parasite for killing the parasite?  It's a life, just like you and I are.

No DesertRat...therein lies the problem!  A fetus is not a parasite.  It is a human being.  If it is not a human being then when does it become one?  Upon breathing air?  Upon its 18th birthday when it is given adult rights by the government? When?  Remarkable that you equate a human fetus to an intestinal infection.  Amazing! Truly amazing!

[+joc]

19 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

You invalidated any argument you have about this with that statement.  If the "Global Leftist Media" was coving anything up the "Isolationist Righwing Media" would be reporting it.  This is not about "Left" and "Right".  It is about women's rights to make their own decisions about their families and their bodies.

Women's rights is the narrative.  It isn't about that at all and it never has been.  There is no 'isolationist rightwing media'.  You have opinionated right wing talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh...but Fox News isn't really right wing.  How can they be with the likes of Sheppy?  Hannity is an opinionated talk show host.  

But the Mainstream Media consists of nothing but opinionated talk show hosts.  Journalism is dead.  It's all about the narrative and shaping public opinion.  That's what you don't get...they want to shape your opinion to fit their narrative.  

The real question is...when does human life begin?  Of course there are differing opinions...but there is only one real answer DesertRat...at conception.  Because then a human being is growing...if it doesn't self abort...it will grow into a full funtioning human being...not a fly buzzing around your pizza.

So, back to the question...when does it become human?  And why is it a woman's right to choose whether or not a human being gets to grow in her body?  The choice of the matter should be made BEFORE the woman engages in sexual intercourse.  Unless  you believe in the Virgin Mary story...no one has ever spontaneously become preggo.  So...Pro-Choice actually means Pro-Kill.  Real choice is called abstinence or birth control.  Abortion is not birth control.  The Choice needs to be made prior to becoming pregnant.

[+joc]

12 hours ago, openozy said:

The Pope probably does know what its like to hire a hitman.I'll guarantee they have"silenced" many people abused by his henchmen and swept them under the carpet (all in the name of God).Why anybody gives this nobody a say in anything to do with human rights or anything else for that matter is beyond me.

I am no fan of the church or the pope.  But in this instance he is right.  

[darkmoonlady]

2 hours ago, joc said:

Women's rights is the narrative.  It isn't about that at all and it never has been.  There is no 'isolationist rightwing media'.  You have opinionated right wing talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh...but Fox News isn't really right wing.  How can they be with the likes of Sheppy?  Hannity is an opinionated talk show host.  

But the Mainstream Media consists of nothing but opinionated talk show hosts.  Journalism is dead.  It's all about the narrative and shaping public opinion.  That's what you don't get...they want to shape your opinion to fit their narrative.  

The real question is...when does human life begin?  Of course there are differing opinions...but there is only one real answer DesertRat...at conception.  Because then a human being is growing...if it doesn't self abort...it will grow into a full funtioning human being...not a fly buzzing around your pizza.

So, back to the question...when does it become human?  And why is it a woman's right to choose whether or not a human being gets to grow in her body?  The choice of the matter should be made BEFORE the woman engages in sexual intercourse.  Unless  you believe in the Virgin Mary story...no one has ever spontaneously become preggo.  So...Pro-Choice actually means Pro-Kill.  Real choice is called abstinence or birth control.  Abortion is not birth control.  The Choice needs to be made prior to becoming pregnant.

So life starts at conception? At conception it's a ball of cells. It takes weeks before it's an embryo, months before it's a fetus. You do understand human development? An embryo cannot live outside of the womb, it isn't independent of it's environment which is inside another person. It doesn't have a chance until the 24th week of living outside the womb but that chance is 20-30% with a high chance of disability, blindness and other health issues and that's just from being outside too early. Conception doesn't mean guaranteed life or life independent of the womb so it's not a standard for independent personhood. 

It isn't a choice a women gets it's her body. You cannot force someone to donate blood or organs because we have bodily autonomy, meaning the state doesn't own our bodies. Either women have bodily autonomy or they are owned by the state. There isn't any middle ground. Women don't owe anyone to have to give birth just because she has sex. Women don't exist solely to procreate and there are zero forms of birth control that are 100% effective. Abstinence, you can still be raped, birth control pills, condoms etc all have failure rates.  How about all men donate a lifetime supply of sperm at national sperm banks and get snipped. Never again another unwanted pregnancy or need for abortion. How would men feel with their reproductive rights in the hands of the government?

[Michelle]

World's smallest recorded surviving premature baby.

As far as tiny babies go, "Saybie" is the smallest of the small.

The baby girl was born in San Diego in December 2018 weighing a meager 8.6 ounces (245 grams), about the size of a large apple, according to a statement from Sharp Mary Birch Hospital for Women & Newborns, the hospital where she was born. She is the world's smallest surviving premature baby on record, the statement said.

Now, five months after her birth, Saybie — the nickname given to the baby by her nurses — is healthy and has finally been allowed to leave the hospital, weighing in at 5.6 lbs (2.5 kilograms). (The family wishes to remain anonymous to protect their privacy.)

Saybie was born via cesarean section at just 23 weeks and 3 days gestation after her mother experienced severe pregnancy complications. [7 Baby Myths Debunked]

cont...

https://www.livescience.com/65602-worlds-tiniest-baby-saybie.html

[darkmoonlady]

28 minutes ago, Michelle said:

World's smallest recorded surviving premature baby.

As far as tiny babies go, "Saybie" is the smallest of the small.

The baby girl was born in San Diego in December 2018 weighing a meager 8.6 ounces (245 grams), about the size of a large apple, according to a statement from Sharp Mary Birch Hospital for Women & Newborns, the hospital where she was born. She is the world's smallest surviving premature baby on record, the statement said.

Now, five months after her birth, Saybie — the nickname given to the baby by her nurses — is healthy and has finally been allowed to leave the hospital, weighing in at 5.6 lbs (2.5 kilograms). (The family wishes to remain anonymous to protect their privacy.)

Saybie was born via cesarean section at just 23 weeks and 3 days gestation after her mother experienced severe pregnancy complications. [7 Baby Myths Debunked]

cont...

https://www.livescience.com/65602-worlds-tiniest-baby-saybie.html

Yes and a woman gave birth from a uterus transplant this week too. There are advances in technology that allow for right now rare and interesting cases. Doesn't mean it's perfected and doesn't have much to do with abortion unless science comes up with a way to transfer embryos that have already attached to the placenta to another uterus. You volunteering?