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Kismit

Where is Jamal Khashoggi?

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kartikg
17 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Arrogance. They assumed they could get away with it. They didn't anticipate a bluetooth wristwatch. 

Not did they anticipate the international interest. 

I was talking from USA and other European countries point if view. Why risk an old and important ally in the Middle East over some journalist. 

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The Caspian Hare
On 10/13/2018 at 7:17 AM, Habitat said:

The old battle for hearts and minds has been going on forever.

I think his heart left the embassy in one bag and his mind in another. :unsure:

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The Caspian Hare
47 minutes ago, and then said:

Since the family of Saud would all be lynched without a strong protector, they'll immediately cozy up to Russia or China.  So we'll have the moral high ground, receive absolutely no respect from anyone for it and have to pay whatever the mullahs ask for the oil.  American energy resources sell for the global spot price on any given day.  If the main world supplier drives that cost to 200 dollars a barrel, would you expect those who own the resource in the U.S. to sell it at 50-80 dollars a barrel?  I guess we could use the power of government to encourage the fracking and flood the market with oil but in the short run, we'd be hung out to dry by Saudi moves.  If this decision on Kashoggi was MBS' alone, he has a problem with self-control and ego.  That can be used against him.

Neither Russia nor China can guarantee Saudi security the way we have. Although that might change with China in the future if it keeps growing in power.

Anyway do we really want to be so closely tied to such a regime? They are horrible and treacherous.

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Dark_Grey

The dark side of Saudi Arabia’s youthful crown prince Mohammed bin Salman

Quote

As Saudi defense minister from the age of 29, he pursued a war in Yemen against Shiite rebels that began a month after he took the helm and wears on today.

What the crown prince chooses next likely will affect the world’s largest oil producer for decades to come. And as the disappearance and feared death of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi in Istanbul may show, the young prince will brook no dissent in reshaping the kingdom in his image.

“I don’t want to waste my time,” he told Time Magazine in a cover story this year. “I am young.”

...and now we have the Rock publicly praising this psycho for being "progressive". Wake me up after the asteroid hits.

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Setton

More speculation masquerading as fact from the cheeto in chief... 

Quote

Mr Trump addressed snatched questions from reporters over helicopter engine noise at the White House, describing King Salman'sdenial as "very, very strong". 

"It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers," he added. "Who knows?" 

Apparently the Turkish authorities. Might want to check with them before making alternatives up to help your friends. 

Quote

The president provided no evidence to back his comment. 

Quelle surprise... 

Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45863334

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Kittens Are Jerks

Saudis Preparing Report Admitting Khashoggi Died in ‘Interrogation Gone Wrong’
The Saudis are preparing a report that admits Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi died during an “interrogation that went wrong,” CNN reports. The report will likely indicate that Khashoggi’s alleged interrogation at Istanbul’s Saudi Arabian embassy was “intended to lead to his abduction from Turkey,” according to CNN. Correspondent Arwa Damon said one source told the network the report is “most likely going to conclude that the operation was carried out without clearance and transparency,” and those involved would be “held responsible.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-saudis-preparing-report-admitting-khashoggi-died-in-interrogation-gone-wrong

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The Truman show
20 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Saudis Preparing Report Admitting Khashoggi Died in ‘Interrogation Gone Wrong’
The Saudis are preparing a report that admits Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi died during an “interrogation that went wrong,” CNN reports. The report will likely indicate that Khashoggi’s alleged interrogation at Istanbul’s Saudi Arabian embassy was “intended to lead to his abduction from Turkey,” according to CNN. Correspondent Arwa Damon said one source told the network the report is “most likely going to conclude that the operation was carried out without clearance and transparency,” and those involved would be “held responsible.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-saudis-preparing-report-admitting-khashoggi-died-in-interrogation-gone-wrong

@Kittens Are JerksIf true then what a shameless cover up. 

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and then
2 hours ago, toast said:

If the Saudis dump the oil price down to the value of the extraction costs of US oil, then the US is screwed because US oil exports will go downhill.

Which will reduce the price and negate their attempt at sanctioning the world community.

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toast
14 minutes ago, and then said:

Which will reduce the price and negate their attempt at sanctioning the world community.

Might be but will reduce US oil exports drastically.

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Kismit
2 hours ago, kartikg said:

Why risk businesses, friendships, geographic advantages for one person who was not even that important? 

You mean not that important to the Saudi Government? 

It is essentially the knee jerk reaction of a true autocracy.

Meanwhile he was a journalist. The actual symbol of free speech. Regardless of how anyone may feel about the news paper he worked for.

He was a journalist who spoke out against a Government and was murdered for it. It should absolutely create outrage.

Sadly many people who don't care about the the actual murder of an activist of free speech, the death of a human being  are more outraged by a pompous arrogant git not being allowed to post on Twitter. And that pompous arrogant twit has not been dismembered.

Sadly it looks as though it is about to be all convienintly swept under the carpet. With the Saudi Government admitting to it, but claiming the death was accIdental.  I guess the blood money outweighs the right to human freedom. 

There are things a government can do to show disapproval that do not include risking all out war. 

This has been an absolutely disgusting display of modern governance in so many ways.

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and then
52 minutes ago, toast said:

Might be but will reduce US oil exports drastically.

So we buy it much cheaper than we can produce it.  Either way, instead of punishing the world, it would benefit the world instead, so it wouldn't be much of a sanction, would it?  ;) 

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Kismit
6 minutes ago, and then said:

So we buy it much cheaper than we can produce it.  Either way, instead of punishing the world, it would benefit the world instead, so it wouldn't be much of a sanction, would it?  ;) 

There are other ways of showing disapproval.  You could recall an ambassador but you don't have one. Which is kind of odd, when a President has had two years to appointment one, especially with a country you wish to do such important business with. I think it pays to have a representative on the ground. 

You can limit the arms trade deals. You can publicly denounce the act, you can withdraw support or attendance from future events. 

The Saudi Government actually do not have the upper hand. It is a mutually beneficial arrangement that America has with them.

 Donald Trump lost a little leverage however, when he first calculated his losses publicly on hearing about the death. Also by immediately reacting in a way that distanced himself and the country from the victim he showed signs of unwilling and political weakness. He has had two years to get his head around the need for diplomacy, instead he just comes across as someone willing to be a puppet for Saudi Arabian oil and money. 

And I am going to re-iterate journalists are the symbol of free speech.

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and then
1 minute ago, Kismit said:

You could recall an ambassador but you don't have one. Which is kind of odd, when a President has had two years to appointment one, especially with a country you wish to do such important business with.

You can ask the Democrats in the Senate about their reasons for slow walking ALL of his nominations.  As to journalists today, they are just a symbol of the same corruption that permeates our government.  When they begin to act in a respectful way again, they will have my respect.  The lot of them are disgusting shills for the "Progressive" movement.

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Kismit
4 minutes ago, and then said:

You can ask the Democrats in the Senate about their reasons for slow walking ALL of his nominations.  As to journalists today, they are just a symbol of the same corruption that permeates our government.  When they begin to act in a respectful way again, they will have my respect.  The lot of them are disgusting shills for the "Progressive" movement.

Journalists are not and then. Journalists all over the world put themselves at risk to make sure information gets heard.

If we allow governments to murder them with out repercussions we silence the voices of the dissidents.

This is not about American politics as much as it is about Global politics. 

It has nothing to do with the "Progressive" movement. And it has everything to do with getting information to the people that a corrupt government may not like. Anywhere in the world. 

Surely that is exactly what you believe in right there.

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and then
Just now, Kismit said:

It has nothing to do with the "Progressive" movement. And it has everything to do with getting information to the people that a corrupt government may not like. Anywhere in the world. 

I'm speaking of the U.S. media, primarily, but I've noticed much of the media in Europe is behaving in the same way.

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Kismit
10 minutes ago, and then said:

I'm speaking of the U.S. media, primarily, but I've noticed much of the media in Europe is behaving in the same way.

What if it was a journalist you do agree with? Or should it only be about the ones you don't agree with?  Or is that taking it to the extremes of an autocracy? 

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Habitat

Trump trots out the "rogue element" theory. One had the feeling the damage control apparatus would come up with a "softer" cover story. Problem with that tale, is that the Saudis still deny anything happened to the victim, that they know about, which must mean, if he was indeed killed without orders from above, the "rogue element" is being protected by those above them. Accessory to murder, after the fact, they call it, where I live. 

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Kismit

Rogue killers? Are these the people who flew into Turkey on diplomatic planes, in the early hours of the morning, and entered the diplomatic embassy. Interrogating Jamal and accidentally killed him? Or someone else? 

Who knew taking a bone saw to an interrogation could go so badly?

*sarcasm denoted in italics. :rolleyes:

Donald Trump has never looked more like a child's play thing.

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Habitat

This would be the most vexing matter the US State Dept would have had to manage, for a long while. 

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Kismit
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

This would be the most vexing matter the US State Dept would have had to manage, for a long while. 

I  don't think so. I think it has been the most public. I believe it has been the most openly viewed. Under other Presidents, the diplomatic response would be to say something like. I have only just heard the news, I  am going to have to look into the matter and get all the information before I comment.

It would then be tackled with a few phonecalls and what would essentially be a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket. Forgotten by the public in a week.

But the fact that the man's value was publicly calculated by monetary value, citizenship and profit over life and freedom (or liberty if you prefer that term) . That an arms trade deals,  that blood money is more important to the American president than freedom of the press or freedom of speech has made it a much bigger issue.

The fact that he is willing to help the Saudis cover thier backsides (for profit)rather than speak out against the death of a journalist is appalling. And meanwhile the Saudi Government is emboldened once more. 

I just can't even put into words how upset this makes me.

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Habitat

Much easier to manage situations that are not in the public eye, this one is a real PR problem, like no other in recent times, it is distressing to people because they see pictures of a man entering a building, and not coming out, if he had just vanished without trace without the pictorial evidence, it would be a minor story, because there would be nothing to say the Saudis got him.

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Habitat

The old saying applies, "what the eye does not see, the heart does not grieve". Security cameras are making life difficult for villains, everywhere.

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Kismit
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

The old saying applies, "what the eye does not see, the heart does not grieve". Security cameras are making life difficult for villains, everywhere.

Security cameras and journalists. 

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Only_

 

2 hours ago, Kismit said:

The fact that he is willing to help the Saudis cover thier backsides (for profit)rather than speak out against the death of a journalist is appalling. And meanwhile the Saudi Government is emboldened once more.

We all know where the Trump administration stands.

They are eager to impose harsh sanctions on Iran based on an imaginary nuclear threat but will do nothing against SA.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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Kittens Are Jerks

Turkish investigators search Saudi Consulate where journalist was last seen
Turkish investigators were permitted to search Saudi Arabia’s consulate on Monday, 13 days after journalist Jamal Khashoggi vanished while visiting the mission, as President Trump dispatched Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to discuss the case with King Salman, the Saudi ruler.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/saudis-to-allow-turkish-investigators-to-search-consulate/2018/10/15/4f1fd074-d000-11e8-a4db-184311d27129_story.html

An interesting bit of information from the above article:

But hours before the Turkish forensic team arrived, journalists photographed a cleaning crew entering the consulate, hauling buckets, mops and what appeared to be bottles of cleaning solution. When the Turkish investigators entered the consulate, some wearing white protective gear, they “smelled chemicals had been used,” according to two officials in contact with the investigators.  

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